184. After Former Ambassador’s Climate Hunger Strike: Gregory Andrews on its extraordinary & complex outcomes

D’harawal man Gregory Andrews is the Former Ambassador and first Threatened Species Commissioner of Australia who went on Climate Hunger Strike outside Australia’s federal parliament for, as he put it, my kids and country. On the 16th day, he was hospitalised. And while Gregory began his recovery, a community vigil of sorts kicked in, with people taking Gregory’s place, fasting for a day each. And that’s just a hint of some of the extraordinary insight and power sparked by Gregory’s experience - as indeed the history of these sorts of experiences has often found. Though not all progressive voices, in this instance, including my federal independent MP, as it happens, Kate Chaney, were in support.

We talk about all this in what became a very personal exchange about the value of what we can give of our lives, in these times.

Head here for automatic cues to chapter markers (also available on the embedded player on the episode web page), and a transcript of this conversation (please note the transcript is AI generated and imperfect, but hopefully serves to provide greater access to these conversations for those who need or like to read).

This was recorded on 27 November 2023.

Title slide: Gregory on his back patio amongst the trees in Canberra during this conversation.

Music:
Regeneration, by Amelia Barden, off the soundtrack for the film Regenerating Australia.

Find more:
Lyrebird Dreaming, Gregory’s website, including the Climate Hunger Strike petition outlining his 5 demands of the government.

Songs from a Hungry Finch (Gregory’s playlist while on hunger strike).

Transcript

Gregory: 0:00

I felt like I had this force- field around me and it radiated power and influence. A nd I honestly feel like it was the most powerful thing I ever did, much more powerful than being an ambassador for Australia, or a ministerial advisor or the threatened species commissioner.

Anthony: 0:22

G'day, Anthony James here for The RegenNarration, with the stories that are changing the story, enabling life's regenerative instincts and patterns to kick in once again. D'harawal man, Gregory Andrews, is the former ambassador and first threatened species commissioner of Australia who went on climate hunger strike outside Australia's federal parliament for, as he put it, my kids and country. On the 16th day he was hospitalised. A nd while Gregory began his recovery, a community vigil of sorts kicked in, with people taking Gregory's place fasting for a day each. And that's just a hint of some of the extraordinary insight and power sparked by Gregory's experience, as indeed the history of these sorts of experiences often found. Though not all progressive voices in this instance, including my federal independent MP, as it happens, Kate Chaney, were in support. We talk about all this, in what became a very personal exchange about the value of what we can give our lives to in these times.

Anthony: 1:32

Before we start, enormous thanks to the generous listeners who've just knocked up the second anniversary of your subscription to the podcast. I'm referring to you amazing people Dianne Haggerty, Peter Bate, Edward Surgeon, Michael Gooden, Kristy Bryden, Nadine Hollamby, Chris Diehl, Scott Fry, Steve at Urban Green Space, Mark Kowald, Dave Godden, Stuart McAlpine and my Illinois subscriber, at least as far as I know, there's only one, Angela Sellitto. It's what makes this ad-free, freely available podcast possible. If you're also finding value in it, please consider joining this great community of supporting listeners, w ith as little as $3 a month, or whatever amount you can and want to contribute. J ust head to the website via the show notes Regeneration. com/ support, and thanks again. Let's join Gregory on his back patio amongst the gum trees in Canberra.

Gregory: 2:32

Hey how you doing?

Anthony: 2:33

Good mate, how are you doing?

Gregory: 2:35

Yeah, not too bad, I'm recovering slowly. I got back to 95% quite quickly, but the last 5% or so I just haven't got there yet.

Anthony: 2:49

Interesting. It is nice that we were delayed because you wanted to have breakfast. It was sort of music to my ears. Oh yeah, that's good to hear, yeah, yeah. Well, in that sense, let's start straight off with that, with what ended up happening at the end, and especially for those who haven't caught up, but even just in general, like how did you end up feeling? What had you got to?

Gregory: 3:12

Yeah, so look, I feel well. When I was in hospital, one of the emergency staff or actually it was on the ward after I'd left the emergency department, one of the staff I remember I kept saying to them all look, I'm really sorry. I just wanted to say I'm sorry because I actively did this to myself, but I did it for all of us and they understood that and they respected me as health professionals. One of the nurses, she said could I just ask, was it worth it and would you do it again? And I said it was definitely worth it, but no, I wouldn't do it again.

Anthony: 3:53

It's such a good question and such a good answer.

Gregory: 3:56

Yeah.

Gregory: 3:56

So I think that sums it up. It was worth it because it was a lot more than starving myself. Actually for nearly two and a half weeks, like it was. Actually. I felt like I was prostrating myself on the lawns of Parliament House in front of Australia, but also the world. I was just going through the petition. The names on all the petitions on my petition and probably 10% of them are from people from Columbia or the UK or New Zealand all different parts of the world.

Gregory: 4:31

But I think that it was worth it because I really felt like I was able to use the power of self-sacrifice to evoke a really strong response from Australians and from many members of our Parliament. I still haven't heard from the Prime Minister. He's still ghosting me, but hey, I'm not offended about that. But so many people came up to me. You know, the Archbishop of the Anglican Church in Melbourne came and saw me and then he came back and he lent over and he gave me this beautiful little wooden heart and he said this was carved from an olive tree that's growing in Bethlehem and I want you to have it. And he gave it to me.

Gregory: 5:32

And I'm not Christian but I just kept holding that against my heart, because I believe in the power of humanity and I believe in the power of prayer too. So there were so many people that had these really beautiful, spontaneous reactions to what I was doing, who were concerned for my health but also, I think, were really grateful that somebody they didn't know, a stranger, but a fellow Australian, was willing to do this to raise the consciousness, the collective consciousness, and to point out the hypocrisy of our government's policies that were on the brink of climate collapse. And I think it was ironic, actually, that the day that I collapsed and went to hospital was the 16th day. I almost made it to 17 days, but that day was the first day in world history that the global average temperature, compared to the pre-industrial revolution average temperature, exceeded two degrees.

Gregory: 6:47

So, it was the first time ever that the world was two degrees hotter than it was before the industrial revolution, and that was the same day that I got cut off to hospital.

Anthony: 6:59

It is interesting, isn't? It Was that an event a few days ago hosted by the Australia Institute here in Perth, and it had our actually I'm in the seat of Curtin, so our independent MP, kate Cheney, and the local member for Labor, as it happens, josh Wilson Danny Fremantle it was and Richard Dennis from the Institute, and Kate said something during that event that just ran chills through you and it comes to mind right now because of the sort of landmark that you just put on the table.

Anthony: 7:33

She said we're forecast to have 2.9 degrees of warming by the end of the century and that would be unfit for human civilization. And just that comment is. I found even in that event and my wife and I talked about it later because she felt chills yet I was sort of lamenting that even in that context it didn't really seem to land. It was like did anybody hear that?

Gregory: 7:59

Yeah, and I think that's what drove me to this hunger strike, because I knew my wife said that I was doom scrolling too much on climate science. And the science says that at the end of this century, unless we get emissions under control, the world will be uninhabitable for three to six billion people. So between half and potentially up to two thirds of the people on the planet will be living in places where our bodies can't metabolize, where it's too hot and too humid. And Kate Cheney's right like the science, there's something. There's a disconnect between the science and government policy and the behavior of many of us as individuals in response to climate change and that's what drove me to this.

Gregory: 8:55

I actually had I was diagnosed with depression at the beginning of this year and it was climate grief and ecological grief and I realized I was taking the medication and that it was taking the edge off me and it was helping me kind of be exist. But I realized I needed to do something active and hopeful and, even if I couldn't change the final outcome of climate change, if I could actually change the way I responded to it by acting and able to look my kids in the eye and say I've done everything. I feel sad thinking about it, but as soon as I decided to do it, I spent about four months planning my hunger strike. I'm a fairly organized person and I felt like I was in a unique position as a I'm not an elitist or a status person.

Gregory: 9:55

I worked at Steggles Country Chicken like the biggest chicken abattoir in Australia when I finished school and at uni and I lived in a caravan and slept on the floor on mattresses, like with my mum and sister. You know, like a bit. But I realized, having been an ambassador for Australia and having been the threatened species commissioner and having been a ministerial advisor, I was in a position where maybe people might be people might be a little bit more shocked or people might listen a little bit more than if I was a traditional kind of stereotypic climate activist with dreadlocked hair and some piercings. And actually those people's voices are just as important, but society tends to discount those voices. So that was why I purposely wore all my old ambassador shirts every day.

Gregory: 10:49

You know like I probably would have liked to have been wearing a t-shirt or my pajamas or something more comfortable, but I wore those business shirts because I wanted to, I thought it was important that messaging. But I felt like I was in a position and where many senior government people came and rang me up and begged me to stop, because I know the secretaries of a lot of the departments and, of course, yeah, I was in a position to, like I was uniquely placed to, to hunger strike in a way that might have a bit more resonance, and so that's what made me decide to do it. But the warning bell that Kate Cheney chimed and that you kind of realized many people weren't hearing it. That's how I felt. I felt like I needed to do something shocking and I thought about gluing myself to things or chaining myself and locking myself onto things and I thought that's important.

Gregory: 11:55

And I admire the climate activists and actually just this weekend I was at the rising tide blockade of Newcastle Port and I particularly admire the 100-odd people that stayed on after the permit finished and they're not criminals. The criminals are the people not acting on climate change, but they broke the law. I admire them, but I thought I don't know whether that's gonna have an impact. And somewhere along the line I thought about a hunger strike and I asked my 83-year-old mum and she had a very immediate positive response. Like I said, mum, I want to do something and Rachel, my wife and the kids support me. And I said I've been to my doctor and the doctor won't oppose it, which was a lie, and my doctor told me she wouldn't support it. But everyone we lied about our mums every now and again.

Anthony: 12:57

So, anyway.

Gregory: 12:58

and then I said it's gonna be prolonged peaceful, lawful climate action, but a bit shocking. And mum just immediately said, oh, you're gonna go on a hunger strike. I said not, if you won't support me. And she said, oh, gandhi did quite a few. And she said he's striked for over 21 days three times, and so she knew more about hunger striking than I did.

Anthony: 13:20

How interesting. Well, I was gonna say, for her to support you. It says something about how much she's feeling it. Yeah, and there she was, in her private circumstance, feeling it that much.

Anthony: 13:31

And there's a lot of people in that boat. Hey, like yourself and you made it somewhat visible, I wanna. It's really interesting that then, at least through your mum, you were tapping that long lineage really of that sort of action and in that context, of course, it did play a part in an enormous outcome in the independence of India. It played a part. Obviously there's myriad parts, but it played a part and, as someone who, in myself, had studied that a lot as well, it was part of what ended up being a really interesting exchange I had with Kate Cheney and I wanna bring it up here because it is really interesting and layered and I wonder what your take on it is.

Anthony: 14:10

I asked her if she was gonna engage with you and the office actually replied saying that no, she's not and that's because she lent on the side of. She doesn't wanna encourage this sort of dangerous action.

Anthony: 14:26

Doesn't wanna encourage more people to do it, obviously motivated by a great care and trying to find her best way as an MP now to do the sorts of things we're all aiming for. But she said that and then I thought about that a lot because it makes sense at one level. But then I thought about a few things. One was the Gandhian example of where it played a part. Another was what you described that we sort of all hear it, but are we really hearing it? You describe beautifully how it was just as much to shake yourself up as anything and get moving, and that's all really obviously important. We need ways that do that for ourselves as much as others.

Anthony: 15:07

And then I thought I've heard you speak about your indigenous heritage. I hear that around the country, from First Nations too, like they're feeling their arms being taken off. As much as I feel it. I sort of feel a sense of deference to that level of connection to this, not only to this continent, but just to where we stand and wherever we stand, and I guess in that sense it cast well, there are other reasons too, but in that sense you get the picture it sort of cast a level of where's the real danger, that sort of a question, yeah, but I'm wondering for you, mate, how do you digest that, knowing there was one independent who wouldn't come and say hi, for these sorts of reasons.

Gregory: 15:47

I think that was quite a common reaction of many people, kate Cheney's reaction, and I respect that. Actually, my mum I said how much she supported me but she during my hunger strike, every day she sent me unconditional messages of support, but she was also barraged by all of my aunties and uncles and cousins that were begging her to stop. And actually I got messages from aunties telling me that it was irresponsible and that I needed to think of my family. But I actually know deeply that it wasn't irresponsible and that I was doing the right thing and I found. I'll give you two examples.

Gregory: 16:43

One example was a lady who came up about halfway through my hunger strike and from Ta Gwinnong, which is the southern kind of like lower income part of Canberra, and she really wanted to have a photo with me and my sister had come down to look after me for the weekend to share the burden a bit, because I needed supervision, because I was getting exhausted and my wife could only do so much and my sister was taking photos, and this lady kept saying oh, I need to have a photo, I need to have a photo and then. So we finally took this photo and then she said, oh, that's the first time I've had a photo, except for my license in 35 years. And I said, oh, why? And she said, oh, I don't like having my photo taken, and like she had some sort of skin condition. But she said I just thought what can I do? And I thought, if that man's hunger striking, I know what I can do, I'll go and have my photo taken with him. So that to me really showed how important it was the deep connection and the fear that she broke through because of her desperation for a safe planet. And the other was actually on.

Gregory: 18:04

It was either my last day or my second last day, because I was a bit delirious, but there was a family of four people a dad, a mum and two kids like primary school aged kids and they were visiting Canberra, obviously, and they'd walked past and seen me and they just stopped. And I find it really hard to talk about this without crying, but I don't care, like it's as long as you and your listeners don't mind. But they stopped and the mum and dad just kept saying thank you and reaching out to me and I kept saying it's okay and holding their hands, and so they were deeply moved and affected by it. And then I remember thinking, oh, I hope I'm not freaking out their children, because their two young children were standing there and they were explaining to their children that I hadn't eaten for 16 days and that I was weak, and that I was doing it because I was concerned about the safety of all human beings on the planet. And but that family, who didn't know me all of them, including their children, understood why I was doing it and were grateful.

Gregory: 19:25

And so, yeah, I think that I know deeply that it was a powerful thing to do. But also there's quite a big difference, because I was exercising my own agency and I wasn't affecting anyone except myself, and the only people that I cared about deeply were all of us as humanity. That's what I cared about the most. And then after that, I cared about my wife and my two children and um and I was estranged between I think it would have been really hard to keep going if I didn't have their support, but I had their support and that that kept giving me the strength.

Anthony: 20:14

Which also says an enormous amount about them, the people that we won't see splashed on the media, yeah, who didn't have the high office, even as you were describing before, but who have put in the big ones, because in many ways that's harder, isn't it? I mean, I think for myself, and I think partly with reference to where you just ended. You know, I passed 50 last year. My dad died a couple of years ago. I guess those sorts of things take another level in your self-awareness of immortality and your contribution in life. It's everything Kate Cheney's talked about too, when she decided to go for Canberra after throwing up for two weeks thinking whether she should or not after the community art, like really life-defining stuff, like which hill do you want to die on, type stuff.

Anthony: 20:58

But also what happened when I passed 50 was I say this sort of roofily but respectfully for those I'm talking about a whole bunch of 50 something's died in the public eye. You know Shane Warren was the biggest, I suppose at 52. But then there are a spate of others and maybe it's just because you know what your context is you see more of in the world as it happens, but I'm seeing it a lot and it just made more acute for me.

Anthony: 21:22

Okay, if any day, is it anyway? Then what are you going to do with this day? Yes, yes.

Gregory: 21:33

That's how I felt because, like, I've done a lot of research and so I knew that I wouldn't die of starvation for about another three weeks. My legs and arms were aching a lot and my chest, and the nurse and the paramedics told me that was because my muscles were eating themselves. It's kind of like the opposite when you do strength training and you have sore muscles because you're building them. The same thing happens when your body starts eating itself. But I knew that I wouldn't die from starvation for probably another three weeks.

Gregory: 22:04

But I was worried about my heart because I have an enlarged heart and a heart murmur and my doctor said I wouldn't support you anyway. But I particularly won't support you because if you're hard and I had high blood pressure the whole time and blood pressure normally goes down when you're starving but it was because of the anxiety of being, of prostrating myself on display like a human billboard out in front. But I remember thinking I hope I don't have a heart attack. But I actually didn't care personally about dying. I was just like, oh, that's going to end the hunger strike and actually it'll really upset my wife and children, and so I kept thinking I don't want to have a heart attack because my wife and children will be devastated and the hunger strike will be over.

Gregory: 22:57

But I wasn't actually afraid of dying because I felt it was really important. And there's only one person I know who can really understand how I feel and his name is Daniel Bleakley and he has a show, a video, like a YouTube channel called Coal Miners in Teslas. He's a bit of an environmental activist, but he did a 10 day hunger strike about just before COVID about three years ago on the steps of Parliament House in Victoria. It was a set timeframe, which actually, I think, for me I didn't want to have a set timeframe because it would take my power away. But Daniel starved himself for 10 days, but he was actually in his 30s when he did it and then he's quite a fit fella and so I remember thinking initially I thought he can do what I can, but then, once I over, took him, and then I thought my body's actually 20 years older than he

Gregory: 24:07

is and I'm not unfit, but I don't go to CrossFit or do any training and so I think I but I could talk to him and he was actually in Canberra, so he actually really helped me make the decision.

Gregory: 24:27

I found him out and he helped me make the decision to do it, but he's the only person that understands it.

Gregory: 24:32

It's a long story, but I basically kind of felt like you know those images you see, like those Hindu or Buddhist gods or even the ones of Jesus, or even those God clouds where you see all of like, with the light coming out and the light around religious figures.

Gregory: 24:51

I felt like I had this force field around me and it radiated power and influence and I honestly feel like it was the most powerful thing I ever did, much more powerful than being an ambassador for Australia or a ministerial advisor or the threatened species commissioner. But also it protected me, and what does happen with hunger strikers is, they say, they can become quite stubborn. And it's, I think, this sense of like, power and protection that you have, because you're doing it for a moral cause and because it's prolonged and there's something physiological and chemical, the chemical kind of neurological, I think, that happens to our bodies that, for me, gave me. Although I slowed right down, and when I watch and listen to the videos I could see physically my speech and my body strength eroding, but I didn't feel weak. I felt really strong and insulated.

Anthony: 26:05

That's so interesting. This has ended up over nearly 200 episodes now, being a key theme merging out of the podcast, of all the stories of regeneration or people standing for it, finding things within themselves and within nature as a whole that were not expected very often. Hoped for sure, but not expected, in some cases not even hopeful, beyond the realm of what would even be hopeful. So you've just said another aspect of it which I find really interesting, then, because part of my well, in a sense, I think, from a standpoint that's actually pretty commonly known, that we use a tiny fraction of our brain power in daily life, let alone what we're learning about our broader body and the microbiome, and then even intuition.

Anthony: 26:55

When I say what we're learning we've learned for millennia about these things but what we're learning scientifically, that then you can see the marry up with some of these ancient stories about human capacity that is just laying dormant and you have described beautifully already how you sort of have this was as much a way to come out of yourself into that higher realm, if I just use those words. I don't mean ranking, but just in that, more of that potential and that capacity. And so one of the questions I had in mind for you was how you think you've changed. And I want to ask it now, even though you've sort of hinted at it a bit, but with reference to this in particular, like how would you describe you've changed in these ways, in this sense of consciousness of this capacity, and even in accessing it, perhaps since you've started eating again?

Gregory: 27:48

Yes, I feel and I asked I ref, I cross reference this with Daniel, who did the hunger strike, and he said no, no, I feel the same way and because I said I want this to stay with me, I feel two things that are really different, but they're they're also not completely brand new that were there in me.

Gregory: 28:10

And the first is I just feel like I have to tell everyone how much I love them and how like our common humanity, and so I feel this deep sense of love and compassion for everyone, including people that don't like me. I want them to be happy and I want them not to suffer, and so that feels really strong. And the other thing is I still that force field that I was describing around me and I'm not into kind of crystals and all of that, but that's kind of the best way to describe it is those images you see of Jesus or Buddha with that kind of light around them. I feel that I've still got that, and so it's kind of like it protects me. It actually makes me not worry about my ego. It makes me care about humanity and nature without having to worry about the impacts. I honestly don't care at all about what people say about me on the Internet, like at all the trolls. I just don't care about it at all.

Gregory: 29:29

Yeah whereas before I would tell myself, oh, you shouldn't care, but it would still be, I could try, I'd have to fight it. But I don't have to fight any of that, it just it. Just it doesn't even splash off me, it just kind of goes and gets absorbed by this force field around me. Yeah, so that's how I feel. I sort of for people who meditate, or perhaps people who pray pray a lot. I do a bit of meditation, like for my mental health, and I haven't really done any since my hunger strike, but I feel the same way as I do after I've done an hour of deep, deep meditation. I feel really calm and centered and compassionate, really compassionate and connected to everything Nature and people. Yes, I feel really good. And I asked Daniel about that. I said I don't want that to wear off and he said oh no, I don't think it will, I've still got it.

Anthony: 30:36

Really yeah.

Gregory: 30:37

Yeah. So I'm quite conscious, I want to protect that and and I think that if I stop and think about it, I think it would most likely be the intensity of what I experienced. If it like, if 100% was the full intensity of it, I reckon the starvation was about 25 to 30%, but the I complete and that's what I mentally planned for, and rationalize that I could do it. But what I wasn't expecting was to be this national center of attention and Kate Cheney didn't come down and we said I respect why she didn't. But Allegra Spender did and actually Sophie Scamps, who's a doctor, came down and I remember saying to her and she sat down. She didn't care about a fancy clothes, she sat down on the ground because I was in my swag and and and she was like, oh, gregory, and I said I'm so sorry I'm doing this because I know you're a doctor and you might be cross with me. And she said, oh, she said I respect you for making the decisions that you've had to make and and of course, I don't want you to die. And she said you're way too valuable alive than dead. And then she said I want you to come into Parliament House and help us reinvigorate and and restore democracy. And then I was.

Gregory: 32:02

I really admired her for that because because pretty much everyone else who came down who were politicians, except for Kate, except for Sophie Scamp and David Pocock, were sort of a bit luxury. They were like Gregory, you need to stop this. And. And the Labor Party people were sort of like Gregory, we're already doing enough, we've done more than any other government and you need to stop this. And the Liberal people just didn't come anywhere near me, like and.

Gregory: 32:33

But even the Greens, like the Greens were like well, we've we've had to caucus about this and we support your demands. And they did try to put a motion in the Senate which I think the Labor people prevented from getting up, supporting all of my five demands. But even the Greens said we support that, but you need to stop and leave it to us, the people in the building, to sort out. And then I sort of thought that was a bit patronizing, but again, like I didn't care. Or Andrew Bolte, like he, I did an interview with him and I honestly, like my blood pressure didn't raise one. Whatever it is the killer, pascal, or whatever it is that it didn't go up the slightest bit.

Gregory: 33:13

I was just there and I was like eventually I just said look, I'm really sorry but you're rude and impolite. So I'm ending this and I just took all the equipment off and walked out, but I didn't have any of those emotional responses where your heart feels tense and I still don't. So I really hope that that's something that stays with me 100%.

Anthony: 33:35

It's so interesting, and it's so interesting that, yes, we can access these things in meditation, but you've accessed it in being with people at a heightened level, and it does make me think about how yeah, how we can do it. They're not mutually exclusive getting involved in the world doesn't mean that the loss of opportunity to stay peaceful. It can mean accessing that greater capacity and peace.

Gregory: 34:02

I think it does, because I like I think now. I remember at the rising tide event, a 17 year old Girl from Adelaide came up and introduced herself and said can I give you a hug? I said I love hugging everyone. Now let's have a huge hug, and I don't care about COVID, because everyone's during my hunger strike. It's like, oh, don't hug anyone because your immunity will be low. I wanted to hug and kiss everyone, but she, she thank me for what I did. And then I just said look, I'm really Great for that, but I feel like I haven't it's I've done, I haven't done enough and it's too late.

Gregory: 34:44

Well, I feel like I've let you down and but. But I, on the one hand, I do feel like that, but I do feel like at least I can say to my kids and all young people I'm sorry we've left it so late, but I did put my life and heart On the line for you and they're very grateful. So I feel like I. There is something about that which gives you a sense of self acceptance and Forgiveness. Work because we we actually are not leaving even in my lifetime can be a very dangerous city to live, and I'm 55, so I'd like to be the first person in my family living to A hundred. So I've got another 45 years in me and the world is going to be a very dangerous place in 45 years. But but for my children, unless we really act quickly, it's actually going to be really scary and horrible future.

Anthony: 35:56

I keep holding on to the fact that this capacity, this what is it? This place you've accessed as a human is still there for us, even throughout. Whatever ensues like that, it's still the reason to get up every day and do what we can, no matter what other people choose. In that sense, yes, but by the way, I just want to point out you just had two glass perch right behind you. It was a blessing we've we've had them all over the shop out here this morning, and we regard there's as quite the blessing around these parts, and they came to visit their too.

Gregory: 36:32

So they did actually. There's a pair of King Parrots I don't think you get King Parrots over in WA that they're like really squizz at large parrot and they're like a iridescent green and bread and there's a mum and her husband and they come most days and they'll actually eat out of my hand Beautiful.

Anthony: 36:53

And just to touch back on what you said about the varying responses from MPs of different stripes, let's say, in parliament, that says so much. Just the responses you got say so much about the frames we're approaching, or they're approaching in this case, but how we all approach from our various frames and and that is why I covered the independence thing and then literally the transformation wherever it goes from here, the transformation of our parliament that did occur Last year, but also the need, isn't it? Then, if you believe in the sort of empowerment and having your eye on the bigger picture, yeah, empowerment of everybody in this in a democracy, yeah, but it's not just checking at your elections and leave it to him type of old school thing that arguably has led us to here, that's right that if it's a different thing we're after, then getting more independence, who aren't? Who, literally, you know to bring the language I used before back up who don't have stripes yes, we're not talking about stripes anymore. Yeah, I mean, that's what I? I would love to see that in our lifetime.

Gregory: 38:00

Me too. I was really inspired by what Sophie scamp said to me and I. I don't know what I'm going to do next, but I do know that I think the most important thing for Australia is to get more independence in our parliament. There were days when I used to lie there and look at that giant Australian flag flying on top of parliament house, and I used to think it should be replaced with Woodside Energy's flag.

Anthony: 38:30

Yeah, well as a double, it was a West Australian. I mean the magic.

Gregory: 38:35

And so because you know, like as we speak today, they're like there was analysis released today from the Australian Conservation Foundation that shows that the increases in emissions under the Albanese government who try to claim to be the good guys compared to the Liberals, yeah, and they are seven times greater than the emissions reduction. So they've made reductions domestically, but the increased exported emissions from these massive gas and coal projects are seven times higher. So sometimes I used to look at it and think that should be Woodside's flag. But the other thing that I had, which is this clarity I felt like part of that force field around me, is I was able to just really see things clearly and objectively for what they were.

Gregory: 39:26

And the parties and I sort of, somewhat ironically or surprisingly, including the Greens, I think have this attitude that it's their parliament. I think that the Labor and the Liberal Party particularly think, yeah, we just take it in turns. And Labor thinks, oh, yeah, they get to have a bit more than us in the long haul, but eventually we get a turn. And but their attitudes, the way they spoke to me, like, leave it, even the Greens, you stop hunger striking and leave it to us, the people in there, whereas the independence.

Gregory: 40:02

David Pocock came down at 8 30 in the morning on the first day that he was in the building and he just sat with me and he didn't try to tell me to stop hunger striking. He empathised with my concerns and, and you know, took a photo and he put it on his social media and I put it on mine and and he just said I'm working really hard, gregory, on this. And I said I know you are and I wish there were more David Pococks and I think I joke to him also that that I'd like him and Barbara Pocock, who's a Green Senator from South Australia who's been uncovering all of that corruption with the like the those big consulting companies that get paid to the government how to tax companies and then they sell the same advice to the big companies on how to avoid it.

Gregory: 40:51

But I joke to him that he and Barbara Pocock I'd like them to job share as our Prime Minister, the two of them. But but like he just came down unconditionally, and then Allegra Spender came down and Sophie Scams actually came and sat down with me, and so did Andrew Wilkie from Tasmania, and then I remember saying to Andrew oh, before we talk about climate change, can I just thank you for what you do on poker machines, because, like, I don't have a moral issue at all with gambling, but. But what deeply concerns me is that it's an addictive, predatory industry that rips money out of poor families and sends people broke and but but those independence, they didn't have to caucus, they didn't have to tow the party line, they the the Labor politicians. If they were going to some other protest a Brown Brain Foundation or men suicide you'd see them walk past me and their advisors would be telling them don't look at him, don't look at him.

Gregory: 41:51

And and I'd yell out, hi, hi, and the advisors would look at me and they, they would actually kind of give me a polite nod and they're going look straight ahead, look straight ahead don't look at him and then the liberals.

Gregory: 42:05

The liberals most of them just smirked, they avoided, they were, they were ashamed too, but they also thought it was great that Labor was in the hot seat. So but but I just it just really really struck me that the independent and when Sophie Scams said to me look, don't die, because you're worth more to us, we've got it. We've got a shake up democracy. Come in and help us. We need you in there. And then, and and I think that just really was a really important moment of clarity for me on the value, and I used to think until until I campaign for David Pocock at the last election, and before that I always, just without even actively thinking about it, democracy for me was turning up on election day and choosing who was offered up.

Gregory: 43:00

Kind of like choosing the least of the bad bunch, maybe, and occasionally thinking, oh wow, there's someone good to vote for this time. But when I campaign for David Pocock, I realized, oh actually, democracy can also be about identifying identifying and finding someone and then getting them elected, campaigning for them. And and you just look at the way that these independence are responsive and accounted, accountable to us as human beings, rather than their parties and so yeah. I'd love to see them have the balance of power in the next election.

Anthony: 43:34

That's right and why not aspire to? Almost well, certainly, are doing away with the adversarial us versus them.

Anthony: 43:43

Yes to me that's, that's a higher aspiration, and why not go for that? And I think about the independence. You know, it's not that I'm Kate Cheney said it to me too when she was running. It's not that I'm here to say yeah, independence per se either. It's like. It's like the approach you took. It's it's beyond yourself. You want to reinvigorate democracy and healthy outcomes? Yeah, where parliament is of the people, not and for the people, not as you described, you know, a sort of entitled seat exactly there, there would have.

Gregory: 44:15

Yeah, it sounds like Kate Cheney is the same as Sophie scamps, because I remember saying to Sophie oh look, sophie, I, when I'm not hungry, striking. I really like being the stay at home dad and I like making my wife her coffee in the morning and making rhubarb and apple compote for everyone to have for breakfast and making the school lunches and then sending everyone off and sitting out on the front for and or and having a coffee and taking the dog for a walk. I do too. I didn't want this job. She said we the voices of her, her electorate.

Gregory: 44:51

We were all looking for someone and and then people started saying I should do it and I kept saying no, no, I don't want to do it, and and but finally somehow I got talked into it, but. But I'm in here now. But the thing is she's not there because she thinks she owns the place, so she's entitled to it and that for her share of the time, her party can be in charge as well.

Anthony: 45:14

Yeah, exactly, and that that's a common experience to a like yeah, totally the people. In fact, it's almost should be the first principle. Do you actually want to be in parliament? Yeah, I'm glad you're allowed to hear you for us.

Gregory: 45:26

Yeah, that's right I actually remember saying to David Boak up to that, david, how are you? And I remember saying, on the one hand, I was so happy when you got elected, but I also felt sorry for you because I started thinking all this poor fella thinking.

Anthony: 45:42

I got myself into three years of horrific exhaustion and arguing with people in parliament Exactly, but at least blessed they have each other, because it was such a transformative election, and I mean David's in the Senate, so it might be a bit distinct, but he's got a few there too. I was lucky amongst them. But sorry, jackie, lambie and Jackie.

Gregory: 46:03

Lambie who sits next to I. Actually really like both of them to, and I was joking to Sophie scamps that if I was in parliament I'd be a mixture of David Pocock and Jackie Lambie, because I've got a little bit of her kind of raw, raw side as well.

Anthony: 46:21

Let a thousand flowers bloom by saying that speaking of which, then so on the ground outside parliament house, when you stopped the vigil, if you like, if that's the word, didn't? Is it still going?

Gregory: 46:35

I know actually I don't know if there's anyone there today and I've got on my list of things to do is to go down there today because I was at. I was at the rising tide coal blockade for the last three days, but but until until then it was. So yeah, there was a. It was quite interesting during during the hunger strike I just got hundreds of emails and messages and phone calls and I couldn't keep up with them all. But at some stage a man called Evan, who was the deputy mayor of Shole Haven, which is kind of like maybe like Margaret River or something in Perth, it's sort of like a coastal Council, like regional council area. He emailed me and said I'm coming up and with a mob of people and we're going to join you, and then I thought I'll get back to him. And then I never did.

Gregory: 47:28

And then I was in hospital and I got this message from somebody somehow that he was in Canberra and that he'd he'd taken over, and so when I got out of hospital I took him my little blackboard that I had where I updated the number it and I put the next day I think it was day 19, because I was in hospital for two nights and and the first thing I did was actually drop that down to him and and then a really interesting mix of people like young people, grandmothers, all different people, have been taking over and, at least until I think the day before yesterday, they were still updating the sign, and then I think I and that was when it got to day 20.

Gregory: 48:12

And I thought, well, we've now beat Gandhi by a day, and so I thought maybe it's time now to stop updating it and it's no longer Gregory's hunger strike, it's just a hunger strike. But but I will go down to Parliament House this afternoon and, if someone's there, thank them and take some photos and just put that on social media to help it keep going.

Anthony: 48:45

As opposed to the quandaries that people shared around your plight as an individual and risking so much. This is like it's actually healthy to fast for a day.

Anthony: 48:56

Yeah, that's the fact that we've got this community model yeah that we can all enjoy accessing the higher realms that we talked about here. If you like, on rotation and maintain the vigil, and in that sense it's not just one Hedgie can lock, you know, in the old yep sort of thinking about power, it's become actually. There is a mythological story about this, isn't there? The one that becomes many and you can't.

Anthony: 49:20

You can't do the whack a mole thing anymore, because it springs out yeah, I can't remember what it is, but there is one about it, that that's another sort of, in that sense, ancient archetypal thing, phenomenon that has accidentally been tapped here.

Gregory: 49:35

yeah, that's right and I think it. What it showed to me was that actually people care deeply about this and that real human beings Like that there was no organization, like it just happened and then even set something up and there's a, there's a gmail, like there's some sort of like climate hunger strike at gmail dot com email and people send in an email and go, I could do next Saturday and that sort of thing.

Gregory: 50:03

Yeah so every what. What it showed to me was that people really care deeply about this and I wasn't alone. I was one person Hunger striking but but I never felt lonely out the front of Parliament House and I don't feel lonely anymore. I at the rising tide event. So many people just recognize me and wanted to give me a hug, including the mum of an amazing young man named Leif, who, who you might remember, he was from South Australia and he was deeply concerned about climate change and he decided to cycle Across Australia to talk about it and to encourage people to divest super amazing.

Gregory: 50:52

And he was hit by a truck on the the Nullar ball plane and died, and his mum and his grandmother were both at the rising tide event and they saw me and they came up and they said we just want you to know our son would have been so proud and so supportive of what you, you're doing. And when we see people doing things like that, we know our son is living on and and so we, we, we humans, all of us on this planet we do. I don't. That gives me hope and and we, we can actually come together as as fellow human beings to fix this problem. And if the people in our elected halls of Parliament aren't doing enough, then part of that is actually getting them out and getting people in there who can.

Anthony: 51:46

Yeah, and it makes me think to what your experience of media in that context has been, in a context where you might say we've got unsatisfactory media In this time. It's certainly a an impression I've got and something that again is coming through on the podcast a fair bit over the journey. So I'm wondering what your experience of it was throughout this period and and what thoughts you've come away with.

Gregory: 52:12

Yeah, I think I was surprised that the media Weren't weren't as interested in the story as I thought they would be. Actually, speaking of birds, I can hear two gang gang cockatoos in the background at the moment. They make a call like a. So if you listen, listeners hear that there's a pair of gang gangs. They're endangered. They're gorgeous, that was them, but but anyway, back to the media.

Gregory: 52:44

I think what surprised me was that they weren't that interested in the story at the beginning and then the ABC didn't, did a quite an extensive interview with me on, I think, day two and they didn't run anything for over a week and then I just actually contacted them, or they might have contacted me, but I remember this young person from the ABC saying look, gregory, just off the record, the reason we're not running this story is Because our management think that it might be promoting extremism, and so there some of the, some of the Sort of so called progressive media and I think the Guardian was the same they, they didn't really run anything until I think I got cut off to hospital and then that was a story that I was taken to hospital.

Gregory: 53:37

But they, I think they in the ABC, in the ABC, unfortunately the ABC To try and stop being criticized criticised for perceived bias it's. It's approach now is to kind of Not run anything except stories about houses getting broken into or you know, little old ladies falling down the stairs and lost dog. So I don't really read or watch or listen to the ABC anymore, which makes me feel quite sad.

Anthony: 54:03

So I think did oh, yeah, yeah. So I think they, they thought no this is extremism, itself harm.

Gregory: 54:07

We can't be seen to be promoting that. And then maybe they also thought, oh, we've already done too much pro climate and we need to balance it out with climate denialism. I was surprised that Andrew Bolt was the first person who wanted to interview me, and and then I was also kind of surprised that A lot of people, some a lot of friends and progressive people's responses were why did you do that? Whereas I thought great, that man, he has half a million people watching his show and they're more likely than any other group to be climate change denialists. So they're the people I need to talk to. And so I thought here I'll do Andrew Bolton.

Gregory: 54:49

I think I probably did think and he won't be that rude to me because he'll think I can't be rude to a man who hasn't eaten anything for over a week but he was, but I honestly didn't care. I just didn't care about that. And then I remember people saying the mainstream media aren't interested and I said, oh, it's all over sky news. And then family, again, progressive, sort of more left, supposedly left leading family and friends would go. But Gregory, it's not in the, it's not in the mainstream media. I'm going reminder that is the mainstream media.

Gregory: 55:28

Like what we watch and read is the progressive left leaning media, but but anyway. So she had long story, but I think the key thing is what I was really struck by was the interest and the engagement of community based media Like organizations and podcasts like yours, again, like less, less constrained by systems and rules and more independent. And then the other thing that was immensely powerful was my social media, including Twitter, you know, and like again, like I'll just be Frank, elon Musk isn't my favorite person in the world, but I'm really glad that I didn't quit Twitter, really because, yeah, because I reached I reached about five and a half to six million people on Twitter during my hunger strike. And and again, even if them, even if a lot of them were denialists and people putting pictures of hamburgers or other deface images of myself on my feed, I didn't mind because, again, they're the people that I want to disrupt, they're the people that I want a little glitch to go in their brain. You know, actually, maybe there is a problem. This guy, this guy, you know he's, he's starving himself to death.

Gregory: 56:54

And so I think the power of social media, it just I was really reminded that social media and Twitter can be a cesspit, but it's. But again, it's unfiltered. I could get my message out to anyone and they could hear exactly what I wanted to say on Twitter and Instagram and Facebook and LinkedIn and even tick tock. I actually my kids taught me how to use tick tock because I knew everyone under 20 years using that and I don't like it. It's really kind of aggressive and in your face and noisy and loud and crass. But but I knew I wanted to reach young people and because something has happened. I don't know if you have noticed, but when I was young, young people protested and old people got crossed with them for protest, whereas now old people protest and I don't think young people get crossed with them, but young people aren't the majority at protests anymore, except for the climate strikes. Right, yeah, yeah, except for the climate strikes. But, like at this rising tide, cold blockade, there are a lot more old people than young people.

Anthony: 58:09

Someone was talking to me about this the other day that out of the climate strikes which have sort of gone a bit quiet, right, many of them ended up feeling like what was the point?

Gregory: 58:27

Yeah, they could be and they might need to just give. I often think like my kids, like they live with a mum and dad who are deeply concerned about biodiversity depletion and climate change and they share our concerns, but I also think that maybe they have to insulate and protect themselves more than than we do and just need to have a little holiday from it, because the world they're inheriting is not the same world that we inherited when we were their age.

Anthony: 59:02

Yep, yep, no, I think that a lot, and that's all part of the giving to each other, I think we can do and is emblematic of the movement in its best form. I admire what you've talked there about social media as much as I am Very concerned about it. There might be these micro gains, if you will, but macro losses.

Anthony: 59:23

I'm wondering that's a question we might leave open for the moment. But what I love about you even going to Sky and again, like I think, andrew, as we can see now, has just had you walking the plank. In a sense, he wants to run the bully thing, and that's his MO and yeah, I don't think that's particularly helpful, but some people want to get angry with him.

Anthony: 59:42

Yeah, he feeds on that. But, that being what it is, I admire you for going there because, as much for what my problem is with what you said about the ABC and others is it's not that I want them to be anything in particular, but use this even if you're circumspect about the danger. You know, as Kate Chaney used that word with me of what you were doing that you would have a conversation, have this conversation about it. Yes, like they pretend it doesn't exist and, by virtue of that, pretend the problem, the whole reason for it, doesn't exist.

Anthony: 1:00:13

Like go into. You don't have to make a hero of you I mean, you're not even seeking that but have the conversation. And that just leads me to come back a little a step further in our conversation around the community independence movement into Parliament and your comments about that sort of media. I'm less ambiguous about that. That does feel like the independence into Parliament to reinvigorate democracy. I'm wondering at the moment if we need a similar sort of impetus behind community based media to invigorate democracy and healthy outcomes.

Anthony: 1:00:47

And yeah it's something that I'm the more I explore with people, the more it seems to resonate and partly off the template of the independence into Parliament. It's that sort of beast Get together and decide what we value most and what we want from media and don't wait for it. Go and do it.

Gregory: 1:01:06

That's right. No, I agree with you wholeheartedly and you know, like your podcast and I can see your background there it looks like you're doing it at home and yes, and tie, like those tie, meditation, a guitar and, and, and you know, a beautiful picture of a beach somewhere in Esperance or somewhere like that.

Anthony: 1:01:26

That's actually north, it's Ningaloo, it's the ring, it's a bit of a spiritual home, oh yeah.

Gregory: 1:01:31

Actually, one of the best things I did in my life with my whole family was swim with the whale sharks off Ningaloo.

Anthony: 1:01:39

Jump into the Indian.

Gregory: 1:01:40

Ocean and just have this giant creature swim past and then paddle along next to it for a while. And if that isn't a reason to stop climate change, what is?

Gregory: 1:01:49

But I think, yeah, I think we have these new weapons that we can use as spearheads for climate action, and one of them is all of the technology that makes it possible for someone like you to establish and run a podcast. I did one earlier this week with a lady called Abby, called the eco enthusiast, and I think she's in. She's in like New York or San Francisco or somewhere, but so you don't even have to be in. She's an American, australian, but you don't even have to be in the same state or city. And this podcast, your listeners and subscribers can share it with other people anywhere in the world and, again, it's unfiltered.

Gregory: 1:02:45

So, I think community based podcast, media, blogging again. I think they are really valuable and important because media is being reinvented. It was reinvented by social media, but, but now it's also being reinvented by technology. That makes makes some sharing stories audio, video or in writing easier than it has ever been.

Anthony: 1:03:18

Exactly and, for the record, a lot of what you've described as your personal uplift I've experienced through this, so that's what it offers people who yeah, who would want to jump? Just as we go towards close. Then, gregory, if people are wondering how they can support you or just get involved more generally, take your general message in that sense. But you to like, is the petition still live, do you? Should people still go to Parliament House? And yeah, what would?

Gregory: 1:03:53

you say. Well before, just before we started this podcast, I was just cleaning up the petition. It's got about 5500 names on it and then I'm going to take it down to office works and print it out at office work. So it is actually open, but it'll probably close in the next day or two. Anybody who's within walking, driving, train distance from Canberra is very welcoming and encouraged to stay on at the organic protest, which I really hope it will continue until the climate cop cop 28 finishes in Dubai, which is on about the 12th of December, because that'll be a thorn in the side for our government and it'll be a nice way to reference back to my hunger strike.

Gregory: 1:04:46

But I think the other thing people can do is, of course, we all have the things that we can do ourselves as individuals, but we have to be careful not to let governments and corporations off the hook, because that's what they like to do. You know, tanya Plybysek likes to have a few selfies with some koalas and then tell people that they're putting in new recycling facilities and encourage everyone to recycle. But that's a drop in the ocean of what's needed. So keep doing what you can yourself, but at the same time, don't be too hard on yourself. If you're struggling to give up your Nespresso coffee thing, put that aside. Keep using that for longer if you have to, but find something you can do personally.

Gregory: 1:05:33

But I think the most powerful thing we can do is let our politicians know that we're not going to vote for them at the next election if they don't get serious about climate change. So whoever's listening? Google who, what electorate you're in, find out who your MP is, and write to them and tell them that you want more and that you won't be voting for them unless they get serious, that you're fed up with greenwashing and that you care about the future of Earth and the humans that are on it, and that and you'll vote for someone who works for that. And that's what we need to do. That's the most important and powerful thing that every one of us can do in Australia.

Anthony: 1:06:20

Reclaim our democracy, 100%, no less. And why wouldn't we? For all sorts of other reasons too. Now, gregory, I end every episode by asking my guests for a piece of music that's been significant to them in their lives. But in this case, I want to put to you was there a piece of music that was important to you while you weren't eating on the lawns of Parliament?

Gregory: 1:06:43

Yeah, actually there was. I actually made a podcast which I'd be happy to share on, or not a podcast, but I made a what do you call it like a list on Spotify of my songs, and I called it Songs from a Hungry Finch Because when I was planning my hunger strike I was calling it Operation Hungry Finch. There's a long story about it, but actually the opening song is actually by Mitch Tambo and it's his cover of Great Southern Land and actually I listen to that almost every day on my hunger strike that song and it's making me emotional now.

Gregory: 1:07:29

Yeah, it gave me strength and reminded me while I was doing it. So, yeah, I'll send you the link to my Spotify playlist and you can share it with all of your listeners. But it starts with Great Southern Land, mitch Tambo's version of it, which is in language and just beautiful.

Anthony: 1:07:52

Wonderful Thanks, Gregory, and you're seated right now at your home, which I believe is this where you've got like a biodiversity covenant thing happening.

Gregory: 1:08:02

No, actually, yes, I'm at my home in Canberra, which actually just has a beautiful garden, and actually on the north side we have a lot of non-nated trees just so that we get the winter sun. But yeah, actually I spend a lot of time and actually I haven't been out there yet, but I kept craving for it when I was on my hunger strike. About an hour and a half strife from Canberra. We've got a 50 hectare property about 120 acres of Australian bushland that we found and we put a conservation covenant on it. So even if Gina Reinhart buys it, she can't chop the trees down and set up a coal mine on it, and that's where I heal and get my energy.

Anthony: 1:08:47

And again, what more of us can look at doing, and more of us are looking at doing too. Here's to it. Well, Gregory, I can't thank you enough, mate. I'm very glad you're returning to health, because I agree with Sophie. For what it's worth, I'll back Sophie's call.

Gregory: 1:09:03

Thanks mate. AJ: Thanks a lot for spending the time with me.

Anthony: 1:09:05

I really appreciate it. It's been great getting to know you a little. Gregory:"Yeah, you too. Thanks.

Anthony: 1:09:12

That was former Ambassador and Threatened Species Commissioner for Australia, D'harawal man, Gregory Andrews. For more on Gregory, what he's going on with and that playlist, see the links in the show notes. Thanks, as always, to the generous supporters who made this episode possible. If you've been thinking about becoming a subscriber or other kind of supporter, I'd love you to join us. Subscribers get a bunch of perks like behind the scenes footage, pics, invitations, tips and new chat room in the Patreon app to engage with other listeners. Just head to the website via the show notes, RegenNarration. com/ support, and thanks again. The music you're hearing is Regeneration by Amelia Barden off the soundtrack to the film Regenerating Australia. My name's Anthony James. Thanks for listening.