Nicole Curato: How to transcend political impasses on climate & everything else

This podcast has been increasingly hearing about the extraordinary outcomes that can stem from deliberative democratic processes. I still hear from listeners about past episodes with people like Jeff Goebel and Amanda Cahill.

So this week, we head to the nation’s capital to speak with someone I’ve been looking forward to meeting for years. Professor Nicole Curato is with the Centre for Deliberative Democracy and Global Governance at the University of Canberra. She’s also a prominent journalist, particularly in her former home country of the Philippines. She’s written op-eds for the New York Times, The Guardian & Al Jazeera. And she regularly collaborates with CNN Philippines, occasionally serving as a television presenter, and has hosted documentaries and produced podcasts.

Nicole explores how democratic innovations unfold in the aftermath of tragedies, including disasters, armed conflict, and urban crime. To that we might add increasing stresses like climate change, housing and political polarisation. Nicole is the author of Democracy in a Time of Misery: From Spectacular Tragedy to Deliberative Action. Which might just as well have been sub-titled, from spectacular tragedy to spectacular deliberative action, such is the nature of some of the stories she has to share - in terms of their outcomes in the world, and their life-changing effects on those involved. And in a context right now where democracy itself is on the line, and with it the possibility of coming together to produce more of the extraordinary outcomes we know we can, Nicole was the person I needed to speak with.

I suggested to Nicole that we meet in her favourite part of Canberra. She took us to Tilley’s. And what a place. No surprises then, that we wind up talking about how all this relates to social media, karaoke and Taylor Swift. 

Head here for automatic cues to chapter markers and a transcript, also available on Apple and some other apps. (Note the transcript is AI generated and imperfect, but hopefully serves to provide greater access to these conversations for those who need or like to read.)

Recorded in Canberra on 7 March 2024.

Title slide: Nicole Curato at Tilley’s, just before this conversation (pic: Olivia Cheng).

To see more from behind the scenes, become a member via the Patreon page.

Music:
Green Shoots, by The Nomadics.

Regeneration, by Amelia Barden, from the film Regenerating Australia.

The RegenNarration playlist, featuring music chosen by guests (with thank

Transcript

Nicole: 0:00

All of these seemingly mundane, small decisions were subject to community deliberation by people who literally had nothing. And I thought, if people who literally had nothing were able to come together, spend time together and deliberate together and make decisions on matters that directly affect their lives, then there is no reason why other contexts can't do the same. And to me, that is really the best example of deliberative democracy in action. Communities coming together, taking charge of their lives and getting the outcome they want. So today they actually live in the city, with climate resilient homes, with paint that they chose themselves, with street names that they chose themselves, and there's really interesting ownership in that process. And yeah, and I think that's something that we should celebrate.

AJ: 1:17

G'day. My name's Anthony James and this is The RegenNarration. Ad-free, freely available and entirely listener-supported. So thanks a lot, Daniel Regli, for becoming a subscribing member this week, and huge thanks, Sadie Chrestman, for your three years of monthly donations now helping to make it all possible. If you're also finding value in all this, please consider joining Sadie and Daniel for as little as $3 a month or whatever amount you can and want to contribute. Subscribing members get behind the scenes stuff from me, the chance to engage in chat about each episode, invitations, tips and more. Just head to the website via the show notes regennarration. com forward slash support and thanks again.

AJ: 2:03

Today we speak with Professor Nicole Curato from the Centre for Deliberative Democracy and Global Governance at the University of Canberra. She's also a prominent journalist, particularly in her former home country of the Philippines. She's written op-eds for the New York Times, the Guardian and Al Jazeera, and she regularly collaborates with CNN Philippines, occasionally serving as a TV presenter, and has hosted documentaries and produced podcasts. Nicole explores how democratic innovations unfold in the aftermath of tragedies, including disasters, armed conflict and urban crime. To that we might add increasing stresses like climate change, housing and political polarisation. Nicole is the author of Democracy in a Time of Misery: From Spectacular Tragedy to Deliberative Action. Which might just as well have been subtitled From Spectacular Tragedy to Spectacular Deliberative Action. Such is the nature of some of the stories she has to share - in terms of their outcomes in the world and their life-changing effects on those involved. A nd in a context right now where democracy itself is on the line, and with it the very possibility of coming together to produce more of the extraordinary outcomes we know we can,

AJ: 3:30

Nicole was the person I needed to speak with. I suggested to Nicole that we meet in her favourite part of Canberra. She took us to Tilly's - and what a place. Though if the bar sounds get too much for you, we do adjourn to a park across the road after 20 minutes or so. Though then the school kids go nuts, but only for a short while. That's Canberra Town on a sunny autumn afternoon. Nicole thanks a lot for bringing me here to Tilly's.

Nicole: 4:03

My pleasure and welcome to my favourite place.

AJ: 4:06

I'd love you to tell me why it's your favourite place. Let's start there.

Nicole: 4:09

Well, okay, so Tilly's is a cafe slash bar in Lynham, which is one of the oldest suburbs in Canberra. Lynham is special because this is where I first lived when I moved to Australia 12 years ago, so I lived in a share house with union organisers just around the corner and I feel like this place is my moved to Australia 12 years ago, so I lived in a share house with union organizers just around the corner and I feel like this place is my introduction to Australia. And this cafe also has an interesting history. It's actually nearly as old as I am I'm just a year older than this cafe and it used to be a safe space for women and I thought that's quite fascinating to still keep that alive. I mean, of course, it's mixed-sex cafe now.

Nicole: 4:46

It's not, I mean it's co-ed, obviously, but I love that history of this cafe being a safe space for women four decades ago.

AJ: 4:54

Yeah, and it almost seems like it's of more resonance now in a way. I mean, in some ways it's come a long way in 40 years, but in other ways it's certainly very relevant in this day to be talking in these terms. And I was fascinated to read that the first two years of this place were literally you couldn't get in if you were a bloke without female company.

Nicole: 5:16

Precisely.

AJ: 5:17

And that that did indeed I mean I think it was was it Pauli Higginson that founded it? I think Wore some flack for doing that, but it did indeed apparently set the tone and it's been this lovely vibe of respect that I'm sitting in right now. It also was known for music. Yes, it's almost a roll call of the who's who.

Nicole: 5:40

Did you come and see?

AJ: 5:42

bands and acts in here.

Nicole: 5:44

Occasionally there were jazz nights, which was quite fascinating. Of course Canberra has its own music scene, but not as vibrant as, let's say, melbourne or Sydney. And before moving to Australia I was based in the UK, where there's really this very vibrant nightlife. And when I got to Australia for the first, the first time I thought why is everyone asleep early? It's because everyone's super athletic doing, you know, mountain climbing or in the gym early in the morning. So I was really looking for a space that's quite familiar and so, yeah, I think tilly's really hit the spot that's very interesting that you, that you observed the sports culture of Australia so clearly.

AJ: 6:26

I do want to say too, amongst the roll call of acts that came through, even international acts like Canned Heat and Screamin' Jay Hawkins, the Animals, but, yeah, the roll call of Australian artists too, and it's all on their website, as well as just general speakers like Don Watson and Tim Winton and myriad others. It was also the first licensed outdoor venue in Australia, the first bar to ban smoking indoors, eight years before any laws were introduced to that effect. So, yeah, the history is sort of multifaceted, multilayered, and, yeah, it's a hell of a vibe here. Pictures are on its website for listeners. A grand piano sits on a stage behind me, stage behind me to give you more of the feel, and so for you, nicole Canberra's become a home of sorts, 12 years on.

Nicole: 7:13

Yes, you can say that. Of course, I moved here for work and they always say Canberra is good for people with young families. I'm child-free by choice, so initially it wasn't a natural fit, but now I'm increasingly appreciating how easy life is here. It's a city that really takes care of you. I grew up in Manila. It's a city where you really have to defend yourself against the traffic and the pollution and just the hardship of life. I feel like Canberra, yeah, is a city that takes care of you, except during magpie season.

AJ: 7:47

I'll give you some tips on that later. Thank you, that's a heck of a phrase, though, that you just used a city that takes care of you. That's almost the sort of phrase you'd love to see on the number plates or the welcome signs.

Nicole: 8:04

I should patent that. So capitalist of me, yeah, that's right.

AJ: 8:11

So I'm wondering yeah, what does that? I mean? You gave us a sense of what that means for you, but I'd love you to go on a little bit. It sounds very aspirational, like something that would almost be a benchmark of development or the way we set ourselves up.

Nicole: 8:25

I think I should preface this first by saying I'm incredibly privileged. I'm a diasporic settler, I have a PhD, I'm a professor in a university here with relatively good income, with no actual life responsibilities. So that is my premise. But in terms of daily life, I mean when I go out of my apartment there is a bus stop just maybe 300 meters out of my door. That brings me literally outside my office and if I miss that bus I wait for 15 minutes and I'm back at work. So I think that really is a privilege that not all Australian cities can actually say. Sydney and Melbourne would be quite different.

Nicole: 9:10

I've lived in a number of European cities as well and I think I mean I know when they describe Australia as a lucky country, it's not exactly a compliment, right, it's a description of the country that because it is lucky, there is no incentive to do better, because there's always good fortune. But in a way, I feel like Canberra is both lucky, but you can also see why it maintains its luck because people do their share, people pull their weight when it comes to volunteerism, building a community. When I first moved here, I was worried. I mean, I only visited Australia once before moving here and I thought no, if I live in Lynam and if I have a good cafe and I'm surrounded by people who are, let's just say, as woke as me, I will feel safe. And that's exactly what happened. And I can't say the same for all the other countries I've lived in before.

AJ: 9:59

That's really interesting to me, doubly in the sense that there are so many aspects of Australian society and culture. We can often take them for granted. Hearing you reflect them back to me like that reminds me of a guest only a couple of episodes ago as well, tim Fisher, who, who essentially is alive because of the public health system, and his father was the same, and that's there too. So, yes, sometimes the semi-outside eye has value, doesn't it, in a way? Conversely, then, how do you feel about the Philippines these days? Does it feel like a home too?

Nicole: 10:38

Oh goodness, we were drinking lemon-lime bitters.

Nicole: 10:41

I should have ordered like three shots of gin. Philippines will always be home. I was born and raised in the Philippines. My family still lives in the Philippines. I will see them in two weeks. So in that sense, my personal ties, personal connection to the country remains.

Nicole: 10:57

I am very conscious of not being that diasporic Filipino who just sees what's bad in their home country. Everyone talks about the resilience of Filipino people. You know, it's a country where a natural disaster, the world's strongest storm, hits central Philippines, but people will still rise up and have a smile and rebuild their homes. I mean, of course that's both good and bad, but there is certainly connection there. But to answer your question, I feel like it's a country that I find it hard to recognize now, especially politically.

Nicole: 11:42

I was born in 83, that age reveal that's three years before the revolution that ousted the dictator Ferdinand Marcos Sr. It was a bloodless revolution. I grew up learning that the world looked to the Philippines, Eastern Europe in particular, learning that you can actually oust dictators without a single shot fired. And so I grew up being proud of that democratic system. Of course, growing up I also experienced the shortcomings of democracy. I grew up with rotating brownouts or blackouts. My cartoons get interrupted by electricity disruption. So that is my memory of democracy. Right, there's freedom of speech, but basic services are not there. But hey, we can speak our minds.

Nicole: 12:25

In 2016, the country elected a self-confessed mass murderer. His name is Rodrigo Duterte. He called literally for the genocide of drug addicts and drug pushers, such that today, fast forward to 2024, he's being investigated by the International Criminal Court for crimes against humanity of mass murder. And he's popular, and I think that is the part of my brain that makes me feel like I don't connect with my country politically anymore. And maybe just to kind of update that story a bit, last week the current president, Ferdinand Marcos Jr, the son and namesake of the dictator that we ousted in 86, was actually here in Australia, welcomed by the government with open arms, talking about strategic investments and friendship, without calling out the history of human rights violation and plunder calling out the history of human rights violation and plunder. So I think for that moment, after all the beautiful things I said about Canberra, I felt goosebumps here because I felt like, oh my goodness, I cannot escape my intertwined destiny with my home country.

AJ: 13:43

How interesting and what a kick in the guts. In so many ways, was it Gore Vidal that said there are no such things as nations that are friends? It's too abstract. They're sort of corporate entities in a way. They're social constructions, and in moments like that it's really laid bare. We might come back to that because it's so instructive to so much of what the world is going through this year, with its unprecedented number of elections and some sort of on that sort of a knife edge. But for the moment I'm wondering where the spark lights for you to get into this field that you're in of deliberative democracy.

Nicole: 14:24

Mostly frustration. Really yes.

AJ: 14:26

As you became an adult and the politics were shifting.

Nicole: 14:30

Yes, but also I think I'm constantly puzzled by the way we talk to each other as citizens, as family members. There's always a frustration, like personally for me, I feel like, okay, what are my talents? Why am I in academia? Because I have no other talents except researching, writing and doing a little bit of public speaking. Right, but that in itself, communication as the craft of being an academic, to me is a puzzle, because we have the responsibility to convey evidence in a manner that is understandable to the public and politicians so their decisions are informed, evidence-informed decision-making. But it's increasingly difficult to shape public debate based on research and evidence because you're up against not just disinformation but also decades of propaganda and spin and cheap political point scoring. So to me that's always been the puzzle how can we talk to each other better in a creative, exciting, engaging, non-boring kind of way? Because that's what we're also learning, right? This information is successful because it's exciting, it's captivating, it's emotional. So yeah, to me that is the puzzle.

AJ: 15:43

So where did it start for you?

Nicole: 15:47

Ah, so actually it started for me when I was in the university in the Philippines.

AJ: 15:54

Undergrad.

Nicole: 15:55

Undergraduate. Yeah, I did a bachelor's in sociology Again because I have no other talents. I can't do math, I will probably pass out if I see blood. So I thought, all right, what's a field of study that can satisfy my intellectual curiosity about society? But using words, not numbers? Right, that's how I make sense of the world. So when I did my bachelor's it was at the University of the Philippines. It has a reputation of being a progressive, left-wing university.

Nicole: 16:28

I grew up with people from my batch in university walking out of classrooms fighting US imperialism, so I've always been socialized in that tradition and somehow the protest culture appealed to me intellectually but in terms of practice I find that, yes, it's exciting, but I was always on the sidelines. I just felt that, yes, of course I joined a protest. Of course I joined protests to stop the war in Gaza. Here in Canberra I was part of the solidarity group with First Nations people. I mean, I do show up in the streets, but I feel like that is not capturing what I can offer as an individual based on my skills, and so I thought maybe there is a school of thought in politics that doesn't require me to run for election to find space for citizens who are like me, who want to have thoughtful, slow, calm conversation and shape the public debate in that manner. So I'm not dissing protesters or activists, it's just not who I am, and that's led me to deliberating democracy.

AJ: 17:40

Yes, part of it's just each person in their role, isn't it to a degree? But also, I think, a bit of then what After the protest, successful or otherwise? Then what? How do we come? And this is what I thought after Biden was elected in the States. I thought, ok, they better start coming together here, or Trump will be back in four years and I'm not sure how much the coming together has occurred, but what? Hold that for the moment too, as we delve. So Then, your first direct experience of what you were imagining in a deliberative democratic Process when was that and what happened?

Nicole: 18:19

So this is when I started doing my PhD In the UK. I I lived there for four years to do my post-grad. It was, in a way, it was starting to become trendy the concept of deliberative democracy, the idea of being thinkers at that time were saying elections are no longer enough. What's the point of electing leaders every four or six years? The system remains the same. But also, where is the citizen right? I mean, is that enough political participation? If you tick a box in the ballot every so often, how does that represent what you believe in politics?

Nicole: 18:59

So there is this, I guess, wave of thinking at that time in Europe because I was very much raised in the European enlightenment tradition of political theory that says no, actually we have to reimagine democracy where we think of a political aspiration, where we have a society where we make collective decisions together based on inclusive reason giving. And the shy activist in me felt like this is my space. I can't scream, you know. I can't always be aggressive and fighting and indignant. I want to be in a round table, sit around people who are not thinking in the same way that I'm thinking, learn from them, but also try to convey my ideas in creative ways. That builds bridges.

Nicole: 19:48

And so, yeah, when I read up on deliberative democracy, that's when I realized, okay, this is my space. And the more I read up about it, I realized, no, hang on, this is not actually just a European phenomenon, like, I imagine, revolutionary groups in the Philippines who are actually very much in this tradition, arguing against Spanish colonizers to give them the same rights, and we have our own deliberative traditions in the Philippines. And when I moved here to Australia, I realized actually the origins of deliberative democracy in Australia is with First Nations people. The Uluru Statement, for example, was a product of years and years of deliberative dialogues. So, yeah, so I think, increasingly over the years, I realised that this is rooted in various traditions and this can be a common language that we can use to speak to each other around the world.

AJ: 20:38

Wow, so there's a couple of sort of instances and contexts you've just talked about there. What, in recent years, have you seen that's been formidable in terms of what it's produced?

Nicole: 21:00

I think it's formidable as far as it allows us to imagine what else we can do with the way we govern ourselves. Some people would call it naive to imagine alternative ways of organizing our politics, but I don't think it's naive. Maybe a few decades ago it was naive to think that women can vote. It was pie-in-the-sky idea At some point. Women are not seen as humans because we're too emotional, you know, unlike the rational men in suits.

AJ: 21:24

Yes, first Nations people as well, of course.

Nicole: 21:26

Exactly right, you needed to have a referendum to count them in a census. I mean hello. So I think what deliberative democracy offers today is to ask is this it? Is the representative system of democracy really the only way of governing ourselves, of organizing our political preferences and beliefs in terms of parties? Is this really it? What if we imagine an alternative way of organizing ourselves?

Nicole: 21:53

What if, apart from just voting politicians every so often, we use a process called a civic lottery or random selection, just like you do in juries, to ask people, give them support, give them proper compensation to also be policymakers and let them have a process of deliberation with fellow everyday citizens to create our policies, whether that's on climate, refugee, governance, housing, affordability. And I think that would be really interesting, because if you invite a diverse group of people to deliberate on these contentious policies, you can probably think in a more long-term manner, because we're not thinking of the next elections, we're not thinking about our corporate donors in our parties. Maybe we come up with something different. And we've seen this happen in the research that we've done. We've seen this happen many times in different countries and even globally. So, yeah, I think that's what it brings to the table Imagination, but also a plausible plan of action.

AJ: 22:56

All right, maybe let's pick apart both of those things, but to do that should we adjourn to the park have a little drink.

Nicole: 23:04

Oh yeah, of course, have a little drink and adjourn to the park.

AJ: 23:07

They're lovely sounds, but I'm wondering if the clattering of the dishes for the listener it might just be grating a little bit.

Nicole: 23:14

I'm happy to move.

AJ: 23:15

You're happy, alright? Alright, so we've relocated to outside a school. I guess We've got the lovely sound of kids playing in the background on their way out as we sit on old tree stumps across from Tilly's. So to pick up the conversation, nicole, let's start on the imagination bit, in a sense, where you've observed these processes to be life-changing in many cases for the people involved.

Nicole: 23:40

Yeah.

AJ: 23:41

What have you seen?

Nicole: 23:42

So let me tell you a story about what I witnessed in central Philippines. It's called Tacloban City. This is a city that experienced the world's strongest storm in 2013. It's called Typhoon Haiyan. More than 7,000 people died because of a tsunami or a storm surge.

Nicole: 24:03

A year later, I visited one coastal community that obviously experienced a lot of loss and devastation after the typhoon, and I was trying to go there with my usual academic hat, trying to do a checklist of disaster governance mechanism in the aftermath of a disaster Such important but quite boring questions. But when I started observing and immersing myself with the community, I started observing how they actually organized themselves with the support of community organizers from Manila. A lot of them are also religious groups. I'm very secular, I'm very skeptical of religion, but this is where I saw the collective power community generating power of the Roman Catholic Church as well. So these are religious organizations, organize the community together to actually resist the government's proposal to uproot a coastal community. These are fishermen, women who sell the fish in the market to move them to the foot of the mountain because somehow living by the coast is not safe anymore because it's tsunami prone, so move them at the edge of the mountain and to them it just didn't make any sense right? I met an old woman who said I was born here, I will die here, my husband died here, this is where I will die. There was a lot of resistance, but because there was an attempt to organize themselves, I witnessed deliberation in action.

Nicole: 25:38

The community organizers brought these people together. They deliberated on where do they want to move? What kind of funding do they need? What do climate? On? Where do they want to move? What kind of funding do they need? What do climate resilient homes look like? What is the color of the paint of the houses that they will build? Do they want two floors or just one floor? What kind of livelihood programs do they want to put in place? Because they do have to move away from the coast, but not away from the city?

Nicole: 26:03

All of these seemingly mundane, small decisions were subject to community deliberation by people who literally had nothing. And I thought if people who literally had nothing, we're able to come together, spend time together and deliberate together and make decisions on matters that directly affect their lives, then there is no reason why other contexts can't do the same, and to me, that is really the best example of deliberative democracy in action Communities coming together, taking charge of their lives and getting the outcome they want. So today they actually live in the city with climate resilient homes, with paint that they chose themselves, with street names that they chose themselves, and there's really interesting ownership in that process and yeah, and I think that's something that we should celebrate.

AJ: 26:56

That is extraordinary. So in that instance, and clearly others you've observed, it has had the connection to the powers that be the decision-making. It has had that cut through to actually happen.

Nicole: 27:11

Yeah, precisely, and it's again the importance of imagination, because at that time the relocation program of the government, government, philanthropic organization, humanitarian organizations just had this consensus of yeah, yeah, let's take them away from the coast and move them at the edge of the mountain. And a lot of people did that and I visited them two years ago, people who relocated by the edge of the mountain and they're like, yeah, we have, we have homes here, but we have no livelihood here. We we are safe from disasters but we'll die of hunger Because you know, we know how to fish, but we don't know other kind of livelihood. But when I look at the communities the community who did move within the city and did that deliberative process they're thriving Right.

Nicole: 27:55

So it's very interesting to see that comparison that you know what the experts I'm doing air quotes here the experts don't always know best. People know best. It's their lived experience. Of course they had the support of engineers and the support of I. I witnessed um, a workshop where they were learning to do accounting, like um, how to journal expenses and you know, because they needed to build capacity to run their own businesses. So, yeah, there needs to be some expert support, but it's not experts driving the process. It should be people-driven right, and I think that is the core message in that case.

AJ: 28:33

It's so instructive too Often. Another condescending line towards circumstances like that is they can't afford to do democracy.

Nicole: 28:42

Ah, yeah, isn't it yeah?

AJ: 28:44

Even in well-meaning like here, it's like we've got the privilege to have democracy because other people can't.

Nicole: 28:49

Right.

AJ: 28:50

They don't have the time for that. They're struggling to survive. Yeah, flies in the face of all of that, ultimately condescension, and then it's instructive.

AJ: 29:00

It's doubly instructive, probably, for times that are regarded as pretty overwhelming for a lot of people right now yeah and in that sense I guess it's relevant to spot up some of these processes that have run around climate, that have been national even, for example that you've seen. I know there are a few that go back a few years, like the french government bringing together 150 people on this ticket and they said whatever you come up with will be instituted yeah but then it sort of was a bit mixed in terms of actually happening.

AJ: 29:28

But have you seen other another situation potentially of note on that front, even here in Australia, that we might take our cues from?

Nicole: 29:38

yeah, I mean it's interesting that you mentioned the French example, because that really caught global attention at the.

Nicole: 29:44

French Convention on Climate. It was in the aftermath of the Yellow Vest protests in France. President Macron said yeah, I will convene a grand debate and a citizens' assembly on climate. Whatever they recommend, I will transmit to parliament with no filters. But then, when he realized that ordinary people were so progressive in their recommendations, such that they recommended to make ecocide, the killing of ecosystems, a crime, he was like oh sorry, no, let me. I actually have three jokers like veto powers. Let me use that, which is funny because the card deck only has two jokers.

AJ: 30:17

But that aside, and the EU looks like it's instituting ecocide now Exactly, which is interesting.

Nicole: 30:25

And I guess the point here is that everyday people are actually way more progressive than politicians that we expect to represent our views right. And so I had the privilege of being the academic lead of the world's first global assembly on the climate and ecological crisis. So, same format 100 randomly selected everyday people from around the world from a waitress in Brazil to a fisherman in the Philippines, people like you and me, bus drivers, refugees came together for 68 hours to deliberate on how climate policy can be instituted in a fair and just manner. The deliberations happened alongside COP26 in Glasgow and voila, they came up with the same recommendation make eco-side a crime. Compare that to what people in COP came up with right. And I think this is really the point when people are given the opportunity to think slowly right, not in a click-baity, rhetorical kind of way, but think slowly, listen across difference. Also listen to experts, they can actually they're more than capable of coming up with very intelligent solutions that our politicians refuse to put on the table and also across divides.

AJ: 31:47

So there's something else there about when people are actually in a room together versus abstractly throwing stones across isolated political rallies or or the media, obviously, even just up the street.

Nicole: 32:04

Absolutely.

AJ: 32:05

So when they're together in this deliberative fashion, why does that make people come together? When they don't Well, they might not elsewhere.

Nicole: 32:13

So the argument is in the design of the forum. So the way we communicate with each other these days is not designed to be deliberative. Twitter or X is not designed to be deliberative. You get retweeted the nastier you are, the more controversial you are. The same is true with Facebook, right? So good behavior is not incentivized on social media and don't get me started on Australian media but good behavior is not incentivized social media and don't get me started on Australian media but good behavior is not incentivized.

Nicole: 32:43

But in these deliberative forums, these are specifically designed for people to learn, so there is credible expert support there. If they're not happy with the experts given to them, they can say Hang on, it seems like the information we're getting is a bit biased. Can we invite people from a different perspective so we can broaden our thinking? That's happened many times. So there's credible information. They listen to stakeholders. So, for example, ireland had their own citizens' assembly on abortion and they did have access to experts, theologians.

Nicole: 33:16

But to me, when I was observing that process, the most striking one is listening to the testimonies of women who had to leave Ireland to get an abortion elsewhere, and it was really an emotional, non-expert, but lived experience testimony that was quite powerful. So when you also structure a forum to encourage people to listen to the stories of people they've never encountered before, it is quite powerful, right? And of course, as I mentioned, the time, the time given to really listen and exchange views. I emphasize time because it's also one of the most challenging parts of running a deliberative forum. It's a demanding political exercise. When I think about the Global Assembly on Climate 68 hours of deliberation, plus setting up Zoom, plus studying beforehand, getting yourself organized, sleeping late because you have to do the deliberation and you have to wake up early in the morning to bring your kids to school. It's very demanding, but there's something that can be said about the time you carve out to really listen to the other. I think this is one important feature of the design of these forums.

AJ: 34:30

It's so interesting because I think the fact that so many people regard these as positive experiences I guess they learn so much and they it shows a way of governance yeah that works well yeah so, in that sense, it's time seems.

AJ: 34:49

People feel like it's time well invested and I guess if you've got the alternative, which is what happens when we don't invest the time, yeah, which we've seen enough of, yeah, and you mentioned it in the Philippines even then it would almost be whatever it takes to avoid that and bring the good outcomes. So it's interesting that dilemma, though all the ways that we could imagine it might not work, but yet it does.

Nicole: 35:10

It does. I mean there are also some examples that I could think of where better design and implementation could have been put in place. I mean France. Again, it's widely celebrated but also widely criticized, like you know. This is an example of, I would say, a very arrogant President Macron saying yes, I will listen to you if I like what you're telling me. So there's also a lot of critique with these forums that politicians end up cherry picking recommendations that they like, and this is why a lot of my colleagues from practice, from activist backgrounds, are also saying this is why it's not enough for us to just promote these citizens assemblies and connect them to formal policymaking, because why would people in power give up power? We should actually do our campaign outside representative democracy and really insist on creating alternative structures for decision-making, because politicians will just not give up their power.

AJ: 36:09

Okay, so what's come up so far?

Nicole: 36:13

Well, I have colleagues from ISWE Foundation, for example. They're based in the UK and they're doing a lot of work campaigning in the United Nations to institutionalize global citizens assemblies, and the thinking is, if you have the UN for member states, you have Davos for business. Then we should have a chamber for ordinary citizens why not?

AJ: 36:36

Makes sense citizens why not right?

Nicole: 36:37

so the challenge that they're looking at now is actually campaigning for advocacy groups, some member states who may be sympathetic, to say actually, yeah, let's give this a go, even if it's just experimental. And I know again, maybe some of your listeners are like she's dreaming, like why will that happen? No one ever thought the un would be a thing, right? No one ever thought that you know, we'd have this system.

Nicole: 37:01

I mean, obviously the UN is imperfect and it can be improved in various ways, but it's there, right, we need to imagine it first for it to materialise. Now that we've imagined it, the challenge is, yeah, what plausible plans of action will allow us to get there?

AJ: 37:16

And in a sense I'm just thinking across to the independence movement that transformed our federal parliament to some degree Still a majority government, but only just, and still with the primary vote waning on both major parties and arguably possibly that's on a trajectory to be a minority government next time if the independence movement continues to do what it's doing. And what I observed in that being in a seat where one of these independents got up the only West Australian one, curtin is that it was a similar sort of thing. Citizens came together for themselves and, in the face of all kinds of muckraking and political skullduggery, in only three months rallied behind an independent candidate and won that election. So I wonder what does that tell us about where these processes can actually transform a parliament? For example, is that opening up more of a spectrum of imagination of what's possible across these different forms of governance, these different ways of deliberating, coming together and translating it to actually what occurs? Yeah, does that open up more of a window here, at least for the moment, do you think?

Nicole: 38:35

so what we learned, at least from the european experience. So I'm thinking of countries like Ireland and Belgium, two of the countries that have really institutionalized citizens' assemblies. What is the commonality? Both countries actually used citizens' assemblies right after or in the middle of a crisis. It was a financial crisis. In Ireland it was I don't know if you remember, but Belgium actually holds the record of having the longest time to form a government Like. They even beat Iraq from forming a government together.

Nicole: 39:05

And it was a time when their civil society groups, intellectuals, academics, actually came together to say we have to experiment a new way of governing ourselves, because obviously the current system is not working, because obviously the current system is not working. So in Belgium now, a colleague was telling me that it's common to get invited to a citizens' assembly, as you can be invited to be part of a jury. It's now common. There was a time where you have higher chances of winning a lottery than being invited to join a citizens' assembly because it's random, right, it's a democratic lottery for you to get invited. So, yeah, in Brussels there's a political party now called agora that that has no ideology except to promote citizens assemblies, recognizing that you know, our old party manifestos do not fully capture how people think right now right exactly like one party cannot represent how different a single person's view on an issue is, so this is also a reason why maybe representative political, why political parties are no longer sufficient representatives of our views.

AJ: 40:10

That's probably why independents are on the rise in australia as well I think so, and it's also just the adversarialism by its nature, isn't it versus the deliberative process that you've described so well here, that produces such amazing outcomes when you just pit binaries?

Nicole: 40:25

And that's I mean for countries like Australia, the US and the UK. The political party system is really designed in that manner If you're in the opposition, your main rule is to oppose, and it kind of shapes behavior, whereas there are studies that show countries that have a multi-party system or consensus-based democracies, their parliamentary debates are actually more deliberative. Because you have to build coalitions, your role is not to oppose.

AJ: 40:51

If you're in the opposition, we had an Australian citizens' parliament. In fact, that's what brought you here. No, Absolutely.

Nicole: 40:59

Yes, that's correct. What happened? Oh my goodness. So this happened in 2009, a long time ago, and it was the world's first citizens' parliament.

AJ: 41:09

Australia created the world's first citizens' parliament.

Nicole: 41:12

Yeah, right, tap on the shoulder. So basically, yeah, randomly selected Australians using the electoral rule were invited to come to the old Parliament House to deliberate on how we can make Australia's democracy better, and so my job I was a postdoctoral research fellow then, which actually brought me to the ANU at that time was to study the transcripts of the citizens' parliament, and there was a lot of creative suggestions, a lot of education. For example, it was the peak of Australian Idol at that time too, so they were actually proposing to have an Australian Idol-style competition for, I think, having the best ideas to reform government. So I think obviously not a lot of the recommendations were taken up, but I think the point there is. It's a democratic experiment showing that everyday Australians can actually come up with very interesting proposals and how to enhance democracy.

AJ: 42:07

And I guess that's where it stayed, given where our politics went. Yeah, but it's a thread that could be picked up clearly.

Nicole: 42:15

Absolutely. I think at the moment one of the biggest supporters of citizens assemblies is Allegra Spender on housing affordability, and the way she talked about it in her press conference is that look, we're stuck. And also the arguments are just irreconcilable. Right, if you're an investor, of course you don't want housing affordability, but if you are someone who wants to buy a house, then of course you want it to be more affordable, but you also want to be an investor Like there's, like the interest.

AJ: 42:46

That's the conundrum.

Nicole: 42:47

Exactly, and they're just so contradictory. And so the point here is all right, let's all come together and let's try to reach some common ground on a policy that will work for everybody. It means sacrificing some of our privileges, it means some people will not get everything that they want, but what's important here is how we conceptualize the common good right, and I think that's what's missing from this conversation.

AJ: 43:15

In the context that we sit in at the moment. Let's talk about Duterte in the Philippines, Trump in the States, Dutton here, where it's just expressly ugly Like ugly's the MO. We're going to just vanquish the opposition by whatever means necessary. It's so counter and I'm not glorifying the other parties by a long shot. It's probably evident in what I've said so far, even in this conversation and certainly podcasts throughout that adversarialism, I think ends up here. But given we're in that context where it's sort of reaching I don't even know if it's a logical conclusion, a logical trajectory that continues to worsen in that way of adversarialism and and now just sort of all the misinformation that goes with it, etc. And the and the venom. When power decides to do that, what hope is there for deliberative processes to actually come through?

Nicole: 44:09

Yes. So I think this is where citizen power is most important, right? I think we need to really rebuild the public sphere, because that's where the action is. I think Adversarial politics will not gain traction if people are not entertained by it. If people get bored by it, then great, right?

Nicole: 44:30

So one of the projects I'm working on at the moment with my collaborator, jonathan Corpus Ong, from the US, is bridging parallel public spheres, because we now live in a world where we don't even inhabit the same public sphere. You know, you have contexts like the US, where Republicans and Democrats go to different supermarkets like it's that, it's that divided, right? So? So how do we bridge that? So one of the interventions that we are trying to work with is to actually what if we recreate the way we think about digital literacy, because at the moment, it's all about fact-checking, teaching students to think before you click, or learn how to fact-check a news item, but we're like no, we actually have to equip the young people and, I guess, all generations actually how to communicate with each other when the conversations are hard.

Nicole: 45:23

So, when I do my speaking tours in universities and high schools, the questions that I often get asked is how do I talk to my auntie who believes in conspiracy theories? Or how do I talk to a teacher who's a climate denier, right? So if we are able to create climate denier right? So if we are able to create some guidance on how we can talk to each other when there is in my world we call it epistemic anarchy, right? Like our worlds are just so fragmented If we're able to develop a vocabulary to be able to talk to each other with this kind of world, then I think that kind of adversarial politics will start losing traction, because we're equipped, we know how to talk to each other, we know we don't have to talk like that.

AJ: 46:03

I think we've got enough evidence. Clearly that's where your views come from and I agree with you. I'm curious, then one of your other books has talked about the potential for deliberative processes to also perpetuate the wrong kind of power. There was a sort of. This was the blurb behind it. It recognises the neglected tensions between deliberative democracy's potential to both perpetuate and curb coercive power.

Nicole: 46:28

Yeah. So one of the critiques against deliberative democracy is it can also privilege particular types of people, people who are more persuasive, people who are more highly educated. So one of the dark sides actually of these assemblies in Europe is that when they look at the kind of people who agree to the invitation to take part in the citizens' assembly, they're usually educated people. Migrants rarely participate and typically women are speak less, and when they speak, the uptake is not as good as the uptake if a man says exactly the same thing. So so there is certainly an argument to say, yes, these forums are good, but it's not enough to design these forums, because sometimes power imbalances are replicated in these forums. That's why I was making an argument earlier about transforming our public sphere right.

Nicole: 47:26

Because these forums can only go so far and we need to be creative in reshaping our culture.

AJ: 47:33

The whole context and I guess it says something about the facilitation, like how it's run.

Nicole: 47:39

Yeah.

AJ: 47:40

I guess that was a key part of what you've observed in all these.

Nicole: 47:43

Yeah, I mean, facilitators are the unsung heroes of these processes. Some of our colleagues actually started experimenting on artificial facilitation and I mean I'm not averse to AI, but I thought, no, this is the last thing you want to automate.

Nicole: 47:59

I've seen facilitators in action who actually for example, young women are typically the least participative in these forums. So I've seen a facilitator tell one of the young women in a citizen jury on genome editing such a technical topic tell her. If you want to say something but you are having a hard time inserting yourself in the conversation, give me a nod, I'll make space for you. So imagine that kind of support scaled up on the public scale, right on the public sphere level. Imagine if there are champions for young women who will say if you want to be part of this conversation but you're afraid because certain Chad Brad dude will just troll you, tell me, I will make space for you. So that's the challenge. How do we design social media to be able to have that facilitator who will say you're welcome here, you're safe, you can speak your mind? And this goes back to why we were in Tis a while ago because it's a safe space for women.

Nicole: 48:59

Uh, 40 years ago, where is that safe space now? And of course there are. We call enclave deliberation, let's say, among women, black lives matter started as an enclave, right, like-minded people talking to each other. But what happens when they leave their enclave?

AJ: 49:14

it's like it's free for all and it can be worse because there's the kickback, which is what women are getting now let alone people of colour.

Nicole: 49:23

Yeah, my goodness, when Duterte in the Philippines was running for president and my best friend and I, multi-awarded author, patricia Evang-Lisa, wrote a piece about Duterte and it was obviously a very critical piece I looked at my private messages and it was just full of filth of images of body parts of men that I was just so shocked to see and I was like, okay, I can take this. I know this is a troll operation. These are people who are paid to do this. This is their job, but imagine someone who is encountering that for the first time. Or imagine if the senders of the message are not part of a troll operation but an actual creep right. It really discourages women from speaking up, which actually leads women to disengage in politics altogether, which is not what we want.

AJ: 50:19

No, for all sorts of reasons. Is this healthy process possible in online environments, or does it need to be a Tilly's or a citizens assembly?

Nicole: 50:32

Yeah, so that is the question, right. So some people are actually saying we need to experiment more on developing digital platforms where good behavior is rewarded and it's hard because we now have a corporate or a privatized public sphere is how they describe it right the town halls are basically owned by Mark Zuckerberg.

Nicole: 50:56

That is the problem. They describe it right the town halls are basically owned by Mark Zuckerberg. That is the problem. So is there a way in which we can do a commoning agenda in the digital public sphere? And this is why I think our tech bros are needed? Tech bros don't just stay in Silicon Valley and make money. We need you in activist movements to reshape the public sphere.

Nicole: 51:16

But there are examples that give us hope. So, for example, in Taiwan they have this platform called POLIS, p-o-l, dot, i-s, and basically it's an online, direct, digital, deliberative democracy platform where there is an issue, someone posts about an issue and you can participate by putting forward your arguments in favour or against the issue. People can upvote or downvote your argument and through algorithms, we are actually able to see how consensus emerges on a particular issue. So I have a PhD student Her name is Phoebe Quinn.

Nicole: 51:53

She's at the University of Melbourne and they did this in Melbourne about their air travel policy, and I mean it's a small experiment, but it actually demonstrates the levels of consensus of the University of Melbourne community about their views on air travel and one of the findings there is okay, people care about equality when it comes to air travel. Maybe the priority should be junior staff members who need to travel for their career advancement. Maybe we should also think about the university's broader commitment to decarbonization, not just air travel. So that, to me, is a fascinating experiment. It's digital. It's not as demanding as a citizens' assembly. You can do it on your kitchen table, right. So a lot of people are looking at Taiwan, then, for that kind of digital platform for deliberation.

AJ: 52:38

That is very interesting. A theme through this conversation, and through many I have, is sort of there's an acknowledgement that there's a spectrum of what human nature is. There's the best and the worst of us, and so our governance needs to be expressly about encouraging, incentivising the best of us, or making coherent actions that are around the best of what we can bring to the table and curtailing the worst. To accept that as, again, non-binary and then just to say, ok, our structures are just going to have to lean into the best, and if they don't, then we'll get what we're getting in many respects. So that's um. I guess it puts an extra imprimatur on on these sorts of experiments and processes. I'm curious, nicole, to go back to the media work you've done. I think you even mentioned Rappler before. Yeah, an outlet in the Philippines founded by the legend Maria Ressa, and when I was reading about your work, some of the work you did there was described as narrative arcs, work.

Nicole: 53:45

Really, I didn't know that, yeah.

AJ: 53:48

I mean, it's just the stories basically isn't it, but stories that shape the bigger stories. I'd love to know more about that. What did you do and what did it teach you? What did you do and?

Nicole: 53:56

what did it teach you? What did you learn? Yeah, so I was writing for Rappler when I was still a young academic.

Nicole: 54:05

I feel like academic publication is very slow and it has to be, peer-reviewed, and I feel like academics should also serve as, should give moral clarity at a time when, you know, people are trying to find the right language to say what's wrong here, right? So to me I found that that is, that was my role as an academic who has the privilege of time to be able to write these op-eds, and so, yeah, I think Rappler has been a good home for academics and actually a lot of what they call young thought leaders at that time, and I actually enjoyed a lot of my interviews with Maria Ressa, because she asks the big picture questions all the time. Like you know, she would ask questions like so what does this mean for the wider Philippine society? Whereas in other interviews they'd be like you know, what do you think is the shifting power alliance between that political? Yeah, sure, I mean I have ideas, but it's good to always think about the big picture.

Nicole: 55:03

So, Rappler has been the home for that and unfortunately they've been really harassed by the Duterte government, one lawsuit after the other. I mentioned my best friend, Patricia Evangelista, who is also part of Rappler, and her role there as an investigative journalist who does long-form kind of writing. I really gave her the space also to cover the brutal drug war by Rodrigo Duterte and I think, aside from you know the kind of quick churn of op-eds, what's also really important with the media work that we need today is slow journalism, right, it's the kind of journalism that really invites readers to first distance themselves from what's going on and then revisit what happened and make sense of that very dark period in our nation's history.

AJ: 55:59

I wonder do you have thoughts about how more of that can happen? Again, it's plenty talked about that. The media landscape is shifting fast and there's no business model for that. I wonder how much we even want to use language like business model for that kind of journalism. Much we even want to use language like business model for that, for that kind of journalism. But it's got to be something around livelihoods then. Yeah, my humble effort in this. I was in the university space as well and didn't turn my back on it proactively, but circumstances led elsewhere. But either way wanted this stuff to be public, like we're doing here now, and certainly in person as well. So there are, you know, subscription platforms like I'm using the Guardian users, wikipedia users. Yeah, do you have any other thoughts? I mean, it's still you could argue and people have that. That's still echo chamber II.

AJ: 56:56

You know, yeah, so what do we do about the deliberative journalism? Yeah across, you know, a bigger, national, international landscape yeah, that's a good point.

Nicole: 57:07

I was hoping you'd answer that for me. I don't know, because you're right. Like one of my like, I subscribe to, for example, this magazine called delayed gratification. It's a london-based magazine. Really I think it takes them at least three months to cover a non-current event. So to read about the European refugee crisis crisis with inverted commas. Yeah, that's really quality journalism. But you're right, it requires people to pay, like Mehdi Hassan, for example, example, started his own media organization as well.

Nicole: 57:38

But I think, the way I see it as an academic who is also into teaching, right, I think we should also equip our students the capacity to be journalists themselves, to be able to have the capacity to tell stories in a bridge building manner, right, right.

Nicole: 57:57

And I think in the age where everyone is a content creator, I think that's the skill that we need at the moment. Maybe you're right, we should stop thinking about business models, but thinking about replicating the skills so any content creator actually has this framework of how to create a story. And don't get me wrong I mean I love frivolous TikToks and you know I particularly like women cleaning the kitchen because I'm like how did she make that? Super clean? So the frivolity is there, but it's also short form. I mean, I was praising long form journalism a while ago, but short form bite-sized, kind of thoughtfully created videos, I think can also be a good model for sparking interesting, thoughtful conversations. So if I had I don't know a billion dollars, I'd put my money there. Training young people in content creation that does cost money and time, but training training young people to be able to make deliberative content and then I wonder what they might think of in terms of organization as well.

AJ: 59:06

And there is a movement in the us at the moment of worker co-op owned media. Yeah, picking up pace too. Yeah, so there are things coming on too. It's not like we're starting from scratch. But I agree with you too when I think about then the facilitators as well. So skilling up more people in those skills, with these skills, and then not thinking about media as an isolated thing, then that again you're connecting it to, more deliberative, the public sphere the regeneration of the public, public sphere generally.

AJ: 59:36

Yeah, nicole, that's a lovely way to wrap it. Thanks so much for joining me. What a terrific exploration. I'm so grateful for what you're doing and for the time you spent. Thank you oh, my pleasure to close, of course okay you've had time to think about the music you'll tell us about. That means something to you.

Nicole: 59:58

I will say this with no apologies I'm a big Taylor Swift fan.

AJ: 1:00:01

Brilliant.

Nicole: 1:00:02

I was talking about creating shared spaces, right, bridging parallel public spheres, and I think she has this incredible ability of bringing people from diverse backgrounds together in the same stadium. I'm a big fan of pop culture. Obviously I'm from the Philippines. We have a karaoke culture, so give me any Britney, usher, I'm all for it. No, but yeah. But I think Taylor Swift represents a certain bridge-building kind of artist that can fill a stadium that's often occupied by men in sporting events. But to bring together young girls, old women, their fathers who are now wearing a football jersey to support their daughters to go to these concerts, I think is quite phenomenal. And don't ask me to pick a favorite, because it changes by the minute.

AJ: 1:00:52

There we go. As someone who hasn't listened to any - believe it or not. NC: Shame! AJ: I'm taking stock. I'm learning more than I bargained on here. Thanks Nicole, it's been terrific to speak. Thank you.

Nicole: 1:01:06

My pleasure.

AJ: 1:01:11

That was Professor Nicole Curato from the Uni of Canberra's Centre for Deliberative Democracy and Global Governance. For more on Nicole and her work on so many other stories like the ones you've just heard, see the links in the show notes. And just on Maria Ressa I only learned about her around 18 months ago on Late Night Live here in Australia. She said something in that program I've remembered ever since. She said you don't really know yourself till you're forced to fight for it. Thanks to you generous listeners for making this episode possible. If you've been thinking about becoming a member or other kind of supporter, please do join us. Just head to the website or the show notes and follow the prompts. Thank you. And thanks too for sharing the podcast with friends and continuing to rate it whenever you can. The music you're hearing is Regeneration by Amelia Barden, and at the top it was Green Shoots by The Nomadics. My name's Anthony James. Thanks for listening.