Lamine Sonko & Simon Edwards: Echoes of Africa – Journey to Our Human Heartbeat

Lamine Sonko is an acclaimed composer, artistic director, performer and multi-instrumentalist continuing his family line of Guéwels. That’s a role inherited by certain members of traditional communities in Senegal who are tasked with communicating ancient storytelling and ‘songlines’ through dance, rhythms and song. And earlier this year, that converged with his role in Melbourne-based afro-beat band, the Afrobiotics, when he was joined by his five bandmates back in Senegal on a landmark tour. And one of those five blokes is an old mate I played in a rock band with in the ‘90s. Simon Edwards is an incredible guitarist, teacher, and soulful traveller. I’ve been wanting to speak with these guys for years, and when they happened to return from the tour while I was in Melbourne, it finally happened.

Connected to the band's journey, in 2018 Lamine embarked on a search for a deeper understanding of how ancient musical traditions are embodied by the Guéwel elders of Dakar, Senegal. The project, called 13:12, has culminated so far in a film, guided by Lamine’s mother, and a live theatre production that previewed at The National Theatre Sorano in Dakar on this tour. It was said to be ‘an unforgettable blend of joy, emotion, and ancestral presence’. And when the band converged on Dakar at the same time, there was profound revelation, connection and healing for visitors and locals alike.

The word Guewel means 'to bring people together in a circle', and that’s what we did a few weeks ago at Simon’s place. In the still of a late evening, a certain stillness enveloped this conversation too, through to a very special live rendition at the end.

Head here for automatic cues to chapter markers and a transcript. (The transcript is AI generated and imperfect, but hopefully serves to provide greater access for those who need or like to read.)

Recorded 14 March 2024. Dedicated to Lamine's mother, Guewel elder Oumy Sene.

Title slide: Lamine & Simon on stage with the Afrobiotics.

See more photos on the website, and for more behind the scenes, become a member via the Patreon page.

Music:
Disco Dakar, by the Afrobiotics.

Green Shoots, by The Nomadics.

Regeneration, by Amelia Barden, from the film Regenerating Australia.

The RegenNarration playlist, music chosen by guests (with thanks to podcast member Josie Symons).

Transcript

Lamine: 0:00

The slave trade story sometimes overshadows all this other amazing discovery or creation of what African people have created or contributed to the world. You know, even though we have to acknowledge it it's there. But I think understanding that there was the old and new can create a new narrative, is very important. A nd I think through my work that's how I try to blend things, is to know the history, but also go back in time to try and find how, why we are here as humans, you know, depending on wherever you come from. But what is the purpose of life?

AJ: 1:13

G'day. My name's Anthony James and this is The RegenNarration, a d-free, freely available and entirely listener supported. So thanks very much, Maryanne, for coming back on as a subscribing member, and beautiful old friend well, not so old are we, Cath for subscribing too. If you're also finding value in all this, please join Maryanne and Cath, part of a great community of supporting listeners for as little as $3 a month or whatever you can and want to contribute. Subscribing members get additional benefits, of course, in addition to the great vibes. Just head to the website via the show notes regennarration. com/s upport - and thanks again.

AJ: 1:57

Lamine Sonko is an acclaimed composer, artistic director, performer and multi-instrumentalist continuing his family line of Guewels. That's a role inherited by certain members of traditional communities in Senegal who are tasked with communicating ancient storytelling through dance, rhythms and song. And earlier this year that converged with his role in Melbourne based Afrobeat band, the Afrobiotics, when he was joined by his five bandmates back in Senegal on a landmark tour. A nd one of those five blokes is an old mate I played in a rock band with in the 90s.

Simon: 2:37

Yeah, it was. It was a complete life shift for me, I think, as a musician, and I think my eyes have opened up to the power of human connections in a way that I hadn't been privy to before.

AJ: 2:55

Simon Edwards is an incredible guitarist, teacher and soulful traveller. I've been wanting to speak with these guys for years and when they happened to return from the tour while I was in Melbourne, it finally happened. These two men have actually been featured on this podcast since the beginning. Longer term listeners might recall the early theme music was from a band called the Public Opinion Afro Orchestra. That band spawned the Afrobiotics and in parallel, in 2018, Lamine embarked on a search for a deeper understanding of how ancient musical traditions are embodied by the Guewel Elders of Dakar, Senegal.

AJ: 3:37

The project called 13:12, has culminated so far in a film guided by Lamine's mother and a live theatre production that previewed at the National Theatre Sorano in Dakar on this tour. I t was said to be an unforgettable blend of joy, emotion and ancestral presence. A nd when the band converged on Dakar at the same time, there was profound revelation, connection and healing for visitors and locals alike. The word Guewel means to bring people together in a circle, and that's what we did a few weeks ago at Simon's place. In the still of a late evening, a certain stillness enveloped this conversation too, through to a very special live rendition at the end. L amine and Simon, I feel like saying welcome home to you both. Certainly to you, Simon, obviously given where you've been. But I wonder, Lamine does it feel like home here?

Lamine: 4:40

Yes, definitely. I have a concept in mind that wherever the soul feels good is a home. So, yes, it definitely feels like home.

AJ: 4:49

How long has it been home?

Lamine: 4:52

20 years now. I spend more time here than Senegal. So it definitely feels like home.

AJ: 4:56

And Simon, I'm doubly curious for you in a way, because, while this has been home for you, I remember, 30 years ago, you visiting Africa and telling me all about it t hen. In fact, I've still got the little drum.

Simon: 5:08

Yes, I brought you back a drum present. AJ: Yeah, it's still there. SIMON: Yeah, and so I think the privilege of being able to experience an incredible continent like Africa, in that case, all those years ago, that was on the east coast, was it? Yes, that was around Kenya, uganda, tanzania. But this recent trip, you know, with the beautiful Lamin and our bandmates, has been over to Senegal, so over on the western side. But to do that and to be welcomed as if it is a home was a really special gift for me. Yeah, so happy to bring some of that back to Melbourne.

AJ: 5:46

Let's delve, then Lamin. What was this all about? This particular visit?

Lamine: 5:51

I was in Senegal with the family to do some work and to also reconnect with my community over there. And before heading there we just had a chat with the Afrobiotics, you know, through the tour we were doing with Ivo Taylor, fresh from Ghana, you know, with his son, henry Taylor. So it was just nice to you know, all of us being together working on that tour, and we were like maybe it's time to to go visit, you know, west Africa and it happened to be Senegal and I was there and I just like you know, guys, come, come, let's go to Senegal and see where I come from. And they all made it happen and it was super special, amazing.

AJ: 6:32

So it's interesting how the forces just converged, because you've had something going on with regards to your connection with Senegal for a few years now. This project's been brewing for a while and it just happened to meet a time when the band was keen and ready to join you there. Yes, what have you been doing? What's been brewing for this period of time?

Lamine: 6:50

um. Six years ago I um started a new research, cultural research project under enterprise I create, called 1312. 1312 is a sacred number that has lots of layers of meaning that are super connected to an ancient African cosmovision, which is connecting life with the cosmos, with the spiritual world and nature, using numerology as ways to unlock spheres of knowledge. So six years ago I established this project that brings together artists, academics, cultural elders in the round table conversation, and the findings of all of that I turned into a film or a theatre piece or piece of music. So I went back to Senegal after three years of developing it here in Melbourne to work with artists from the National Theatre in Senegal. So, yeah, I was heading there for a period of three months to develop that and in between that development the Afrobiotics Academy visited me for like a month. So we did some great shows there and connected with wonderful people in Dakar.

AJ: 8:06

So you went there three months ago, ahead of the band joining you, and did you have a set idea of what was going to happen? No, no. So what did you do and how did it emerge?

Lamine: 8:19

When I was heading there. I have in mind all the information I've been gathering in my research and because I started the narrative of the theatre. I've been gathering in my research and because I started the narrative of the theatre show. And the theatre show is called Gewel, and Gewel is a tribe of people, a group of people in West Africa who are the culture keepers. They are like cultural historians. So Gewel has been around in our culture for thousands of years, since beginning of time, I would say.

Lamine: 8:45

So I happen to come from a family line of girls, so this particular piece is called gil to bring back their knowledge system, how they used to approach life in connection to all elements, using music, dance, story tellings to you know, connect each individual with their deeper self or meaning of life. So that's really what I was out there to look for people I can work with. But to tell you the truth, I didn't plan anything. I was like I trust in the ancestors. I'm just going to go and see whoever the project chose, not me myself personally, with my own egoistic of looking at somebody, but who really resonates with this story, and I just trust that the spirits will bring that right person. And I did meet some wonderful people.

AJ: 9:36

Is that to say, you connecting with elders there as well, is that sort of your first port of call and then sort of intuit from there?

Lamine: 9:44

That's right. Yeah, the research was all with cultural elders that I went somehow in my area, others I had to travel outside of Dakar maybe four to five hours to go, sit under the tree and just spend a couple of days just learning and studying how they use all those ancient knowledge in everyday life. And that's still alive. Yes, it's still active. You know, and it's felt in so many different, let's say, sections of living. But when you dig deep and you know, have connection with elders, you know you learn wonderful, amazing knowledge.

AJ: 10:22

How has that been for you then, unconscious, you know, with a home in Australia.

Lamine: 10:26

Now what does it mean reconnecting with that there while you live here, I think very important because, you know, important for me, important for my family, important also with friends that I work with as well, because you know, Senegal is where I come from, that's where I was born, you know, into a very cultural family. It's our duty is to always maintain that knowledge system because it's passed on and you have to make sure you practice and pass it on to your children.

Lamine: 10:55

So just that itself was a tie that you know have have me connected to Senegal you know, and I guess through projects I was able to head back every year or every couple of years to just make sure that I'm also part of all the rituals we do in our community as well.

AJ: 11:15

So what was it like for you joining this yeah?

Simon: 11:19

it was a complete life shift for me, I think, as a musician, and I think my eyes have opened up to the power of human connections in a way that I hadn't been privy to before. Not that I've struggled with those things in any way prior, but I've just seen beautiful, loving connections through people I've just met, and acceptance into a musical experience. So that was a big shift for me, and I mean Lamine can speak to this more than I but what I observed was the power of music on many levels. That's still opening me up to perhaps where I might go with this. So some examples are when we were rehearsing, I mean your cousin came and sang your song line, which was quite amazing. Like there's 700 years of family history. It's something I've never. I mean, I've read about song lines before, but I've never actually experienced somebody singing a song line to, to another family member. That's one example.

Simon: 12:37

And, um, let me you also mentioned, you know that your the, your connection to the cosmos through music as well. Like, um, you're mentioning, there's a powerful ritual that happens once every 60 years, I believe. Yeah, so there's, the use of music in that way is something I'm um, I'm really grateful to have observed firsthand. And then, just going back to the being welcomed, you know, um, everywhere that the Afrobiotics played and every musician that we met and sat in, the word welcome was in every, every beginning sentence of meeting them and, um, that was amazingly powerful for me. So, uh, yeah, I'm something I'm still processing after a month of've been back it's interesting, isn't it?

AJ: 13:27

because you and I have talked about even how the cultures here, the first peoples here, have a similar thing the layers of story and culture in music and dance, and performance and so forth. Song lines, yeah, and how marginal that's been, and certainly in our own lives growing up in Australia, right, yes, but we're sort of reconnecting to that partially now.

AJ: 13:54

And observing and supporting the recovery of it here as well. It's interesting for all our cultures yours and mine might have gained that these things are the things that it seems to have cost. Yes, you mean in bringing it. Connecting and family and welcome.

Simon: 14:17

I mean why?

AJ: 14:17

would they welcome you with the heritage of colonialism?

Simon: 14:22

and the same here. Right yeah, that was something, but they do.

Simon: 14:25

Yeah, absolutely, and I was quite amazed at that, you know, perhaps, yeah, your highlight, like I was probably carrying a bit of cultural shame around that, like being a white person coming over there but not having any words around that, but it was immediately my worries around that was immediately allayed, um, and and put put to rest, um, I was completely welcomed.

Simon: 14:51

And, if I can just go one step further, we, um, we went over to gory islands, which is, you know, the the last port of call, the most westerly islands on the continent of africa, that's, that was the departure point for all 300 years of people being tricked or stolen and taken over to South America, north America and the Caribbean. And I think, tying this back to your question around the music, I got a really strong sense seeing an unbroken connection of ritual and culture through music and then going to Gorry Island, to the Door of no Return, and just having a powerful sense of what was lost and disconnected for these poor people that went over as slaves. That's what it was called the Door of no Return. Yeah, yeah, it's literally the door opens to return. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's literally the door opens to the ocean.

Simon: 15:48

And our guide was saying that they back in the time there was a 50 meter wooden pier where the sail ships would come up and so they'd literally walk. They were the last steps on the continent of Africa. And so I think, I think the you think, the power of the sadness, of realising for the first time the depth of the loss of culture, like I can't even imagine these slaves being taken to a farm somewhere and perhaps meeting people of all other nations and having no rhythmic language to share, and they perhaps would have had to have created something, and then perhaps being told that you can't do that after you've worked all day.

AJ: 16:33

Yeah, and yet out of that came so much more. Yeah, music and dance.

Lamine: 16:40

Yeah.

AJ: 16:42

Laminda, those stories. Are they embedded in the songlines now? How do they sit? How is that reckoned with?

Lamine: 16:51

Look, I think when it comes to songlines, like Simon just mentioned, we call that tag. In our culture, tag Tag means to recite everything that is connected to your cells and your DNA. So it goes way back. Sometimes you can even find elders who can take you back 2,000 years Wow, even to 7,000 years of the story of where you come from.

Lamine: 17:24

Your people come from All oral history, orally, but also in connection with rhythms, because some rhythms are that old, like in our family my cousin was reciting that but we also have a rhythm that is mandatory that whenever our bloodline appears somewhere they have to stop playing and play that rhythm to welcome us in this, in this space. So you have that in vibration, which is non-verbal, and then you have it orally. So it's to show you that those two goes together in the way that it connects the individual to something that is not written but it's something felt. You know, and I think that is not written but is something felt, and I think that is another level of consciousness in understanding or allowing music to travel through space, time and space and take your story with you. So that's one phase of it, but the other phase of colonialism and all those stories that happen in Goree Island.

Lamine: 18:22

It's like I think what really saved us, when I look at Senegal as an example, is the connection to the earth, the connection to the sky, to the elements of water, fire, earth you know what I mean and the air.

Lamine: 18:38

So it's like a deeper connection to a soulful level of what humanity is about. That really helped bring healing on top of all of that, because today you see lots of amazing projects in Senegal calling back those who went away out of Africa from that door of no return. Because today, when we, when we in Africa, we hear the sound of our ancestors echoing back in a different form through reggae music today, through salsa music, through even you know what I mean jazz blues. You know you name it, you know it's just what you hear is still speaking to you, which shows you that when you allow music or allow culture or allow being kind to dominate how you view the world, those connections never die and it's always going to recycle back to where it comes from. So that's why it's amazing to see the transformation of how Africa or Senegal or the whole continent has been through so many different things but still maintain what it means to be human. That's quite amazing.

AJ: 19:50

That is quite amazing. It makes me think a number of things, including going back to the welcoming you got. I mean it explains that there's a transcendence to things, but also it makes me think about, in all the stories that come through this podcast right of regeneration of landscape and ocean, like it's regeneration of culture and connection that is at the heart of it all. In that sense, it's recognised that First Nations here certainly, but everywhere are part of that, all the more where their land was stolen, obviously, or their people or both, which happened here too.

AJ: 20:29

Yet I think it's still coming on the understanding and recognition that this is what it means, that to repair it all, to be able to heal ultimately, and what we might call you know what is called, and I'll often hear it the regenerative movement, if you like that's coming up around the place in different spheres, but that it needs, it ultimately needs to connect in these ways, because without it, you're still grappling with surface level animosities or or shames, or heartbreak, losses, which is what a lot of people feel. Right, this is a time of heartbreak and loss and maybe calamity. How do you see that? I suppose through your lens. How are you seeing that impression of the world, and I mean, does it drive part of what you're doing or do you think on a different track altogether?

Lamine: 21:28

Look, I think you know a bit of both. You know, like allowing what is out there is always good because it keeps you informed, you know. But as an African, they are to me sometimes I find that the slave trade story sometimes overshadows all these other amazing discoveries or creations of what African people have created or contributed to the world, even though we have to acknowledge it, it's there, you know. But I think understanding that there was the old and new, you know, can create a new narrative is very important and I think through my work that's how I try to blend things is to know the history, you know, but also go back in time to try and find why we are here as humans, you know, depending on wherever you come from. But what is the purpose of life, you know, and going back to our ancestors, kind of put cultural practice or rituals in place really helps. You know, like Simon, when you were there, you can hear those drumming. Yes, you know like dramas playing.

Lamine: 22:50

The most powerful experience that's right, you know seeing the dramas and the dances going off. Yes, in those split seconds they forget all about their own daily problems. Yes, they're in this non-verbal journey or sphere of existence where it's only feelings that we all kind of connect to Absolutely.

Simon: 23:13

And for me, as an audience member, to observe that I think to feel the physicality of 20, 25 drummers and 10 to 15 dancers, but sonically, like the visuals of the movement and then the visceral experience of being hit by the sound waves of the drums, it induced a real transcendence that, yeah, I've not experienced on that deep level, and all of us in the band that were, you know, privileged to watch those percussionists play, we all agreed afterwards that we had that incredible feeling of transcendence. Yeah, and so experiences like that for me coming back to Australia, they're opening up questions around where my own music can go into the future based on experiences like that.

AJ: 24:10

I don't have an answer yet and it's not just your music, then it's yeah, it's your everything, yeah yes exactly you said new language or something to that effect. Didn't youamin new narratives? Even that strikes me as part of what's probably inevitably happening that if you, as Afrobiotics, ends up performing over there, that it's a reinterpretation of sorts being offered. I don't suppose you knew how that would go down and how did it go down?

Lamine: 24:42

That's right, it went well. It was well received. Like you know, at the start I wasn't really sure because most of the time when we were writing music, we were here, we were thinking of what is here, but to all of a sudden have that window of opportunity of taking the music back to Senegal, you know, taking it home, it was like wow, how are they going to receive this? Because it's totally different to how people, you know, compose music there. You know, mbalak music is more for popular music, but to hear the blend of Afro beat, afro jazz, funk and all of that put together the way we did, I wasn't really sure how they would take that in. But it was surprisingly, you know, well received. You know, paint the picture. How did it go down? Look, I have to take that in. But it was surprisingly well received. Paint the picture. How did it go down? Look, I have to tell you, when the people hear some of the traditional drum phrasing that the Afro-Biotics were playing on their instrument got them jumping off their seats Like how did?

Lamine: 25:36

they figure these rhythms out. You know what I mean. So that was amazing. It's like through rhythms we were able to communicate with people non-verbally and they get you guys and they welcome you, because that's what rhythm does.

Lamine: 25:52

The minute we are connected rhythmically, then we can, you know, journey together and I guess that's how we really introduce ourselves to them. You know, by showing hey, I'm playing your rhythm, I'm playing your rhythm. I'm playing your rhythm means I embrace your tradition, I embrace the way you feel, I embrace the way you can't and I embrace the way you believe. That's how you cynically communicate. That's what rhythm is all about.

Lamine: 26:19

So, the minute you do that, it's like me, speaking English, know 20 years ago, speaking only French, but you know, putting some effort into wanting to communicate what I mean, what I want, how we can connect. Allow me to, you know, embrace a new language. Now, here I am, expressing myself, and that's what rhythm can you know, that's what we can, indeed, rhythmically. Going back to Senegal, that's what I felt and it was well received by everyone who watched us perform or come and jam with us, because through our rehearsals, I was inviting a lot of people that inspired me when I was young Wow, amazing drummers, people who were invoking spirits through their drums, not just playing for the fun of just yeah here's the bongo man.

Lamine: 27:03

You know, it's more than that. You know what I mean. These people speak a language and that language communicates. If, in some times, the thunder is about to hit, or when you hear the thunders after there'll be rain, all of those things they communicate those hidden narratives from their drums. So I was able to invite those people who really inspired me to come and listen to the music we composed together as the Afrobiotics. It was amazing to see them watch it and go wow. And one thing they will keep saying is oh, you made it happen. And I'm like oh, what did I make happen? It's like creating a space of conversation between worlds, you know. So there you go. That was a very powerful thing for me. I believe that through music, rhythms, compositions, we make people feel like they were listened to, they were understood, they were accepted. You know, from people who come all the way from Australia, you know. So that's the power of music right there.

Simon: 28:10

So those are the takeaways from these wonderful meetings, and let me, if I can also say I got a strong sense, you know, as an Australian, to come over there and to have that realisation that I was connecting with beautiful Senegalese musicians. Just the loving care that you took to trust you know to share these, you know to share these, you know these ancient rhythms with us and to, to give us those rhythms, to bring over was was a really powerful thing, you know, and so I think my gratitude for all those years, yeah, that you spent with the afrobiotics and to to slowly teach us and bring us into that fold and and give us some sense of the rhythmic language. It was really powerful and it all became apparent in those rehearsals. So I felt it from that side, as a white Australian as well, coming over.

Lamine: 29:06

I know, man, it was wonderful, it was a very magical meeting moment. Yeah, you know, having my community here in Melbourne meeting my community in Senegal through this non-verbal connection communication over three hours or four in this room. We just sat there and rhythms were just taking us to different worlds. So, man, we were lucky to have music.

AJ: 29:31

Well, that's right, this is what I hear that the conversation you said you're in the conversation, right? This is what I hear that the the conversation is that you're in the conversation and and that there is a language for that across such division and spread of emotions and history. There is a language for that, and you know I delve into and hear a lot about other processes that try to bring people and, you know, have success at bringing people together across those sorts of divisions and can result in amazing outcomes. But I reckon we still don't we, our culture here, still doesn't quite get the power of this to do that. I'm wondering then how are you finding it received in Australia, when it's? I mean, the arts are just almost notorious. It's almost a running joke, in a way like a sad one, that the arts in general are marginalised in Australia and artists find it quite tough. How is it received here and does the conversation happen?

AJ: 30:35

the new language and the gathering, does it come together here too?

Lamine: 30:40

I think you know, for me music or the art itself, wherever you go, has two different faces, that people can read it, some people just see it as entertainment, others see it as something more than entertainment and I think the minute you like let's say in Senegal, music, drumming, dancing, all of that has a meaning and those meaning is what informs the way you approach, how you do it, where you do it and why you're doing it. And I think not to everyone, but most of us, as gewels, culture keepers, it's our role and that's our duty in life to always make sure that the intention towards any art form we do, it comes from a source of respect, understanding the spiritual connection to what we are doing. But I guess when music or the arts become commercially used we can lose the soulful purpose of why it was there in the first place. Then commercially, you know, because you can just buy your way out of it, then sometimes it kills the meaning of what the role it meant to have in society. You know, that's my own perspective of how.

AJ: 32:10

I view it. Oh, I think that echoes time and time again on this podcast certainly the commoditization of really everything. So what do you reckon in your lifetime of playing, since we were rocking out young fellas? As babies in the 90s and your personal path coming on meeting each other. I guess through public opinion was it?

AJ: 32:30

yes, it was, it was through public opinion, maybe chart that path for us, how you came together with this, knowing that there was this African, you always said to me, even back in those days, you always said how much that music and sound and culture spoke to you. So I guess how you guys came together, how you came to connect with this in the first place and I guess, over that journey, how you've seen it, received so your own experience and then mapped onto around you?

Simon: 33:01

Yeah, that's a fascinating question. It's an open question that I don't have clear answers for. Still, I don't think. I think on one level, if we're talking about the public opinion Afro orchestra, a big 18 piece ensemble that has the power of the rhythm and what we might call the rhythmic tapestry, so there's certain parts within the rhythm section that are playing one rhythm and then the guitars will play another, and so on. That's absolutely there. But on one level, it's received, in my perception, as a place to come and dance, isn't it? And to receive a show. As a place to come and dance, isn't it? And to receive a show, however, someone like Lamin and One Sixth, our MC and others, they do bring a lyrical depth of social awareness and social openness. So, yes, on one level, I perceive that people would come and dance and connect on that level, and I'd love to think on some transcendent level too, just with all the rhythms going around in.

Simon: 34:02

Afrobeat in this example and that can be a platform for beautiful lyrics. You know, and I'm thinking Limin wrote lyrics to a song called Medicine and I've always loved a line, just as an example, where you know the the best medicine is in the ground and in your mind, yeah, so those sorts of things. So, yeah, to answer your question, I think, I think there's there's a few different levels on which a band like that works yeah, yeah, so you're coming to it.

AJ: 34:33

yep, how, how did that happen?

Simon: 34:35

Yeah, well, that came through connections from when I was studying back in university. So Sfi Belling, our bass player from South Africa, invited me into this project and I'd played a little bit of Afrobeat with some other bands, with Sfi in there, so he invited me into that. And when are we talking? Oh gosh, it must have been about 16 years ago or thereabouts. Yeah, 2008-ish, yeah. And so that's where that started and I went a lot deeper into ancient African rhythms, but only really understanding it on the level of the parts that I had to play. I'd read a bit about it and I started understanding Felikudi and his socially conscious messages and so on. And where was that from? For listeners who don't know Felikudi, so Felikudi was the father of Afrobeat from Nigeria. So him and Tony Allen, they were the two people who co-created this language. Yeah, this is based on ancient West African rhythms.

AJ: 35:39

And yet in a contemporary context, a bit like reggae and so many other forms, came out of a context of I don't know what would you call it Liberation?

Lamine: 35:48

Struggle for liberation, liberation, freedom, music, protest music.

AJ: 35:54

So you tapped into that yes. Then you met this group and joined and then when did Afrobiotics come along, so.

Simon: 36:01

Afrobiotics. I don't remember exactly, that would have been maybe 12 years ago or thereabouts. It started off as a writing group, so of six people, like a spin-off group from public opinion, um, just to write and and road test some material for the larger band. But I think within one or two rehearsals we realised we were tapping into something that was us.

Lamine: 36:26

Definitely. That's how it was, you know, yeah, it didn't take long at all For us to feel like it was totally different sound and different approach, yes, and the way we were using polyrhythmic as the six of us. So then, yeah, from there it became another project.

AJ: 36:41

So how did that feel? Because what I'm hearing so much of is the embodied nature of this knowledge keeping and knowledge communicating so ancient knowledge through embodied media. I'm wondering, then, how it felt for you, like almost physically, you know like to become part of this and to be learning what you've described, that you've been so grateful to learn. Yeah, how did it?

Simon: 37:07

feel A beautiful question. So I think for me, this was the beginnings of feeling transcendence. Look, to be fair, I felt transcendence too, in the larger ensemble too, but perhaps my role is different. In that band it's about playing a rhythm and strictly not changing from it. So transcendence for me was just to lose my cognitive mind through repetition, and it's almost like a meditation. It doesn't stop. You know the guitar part for 10 minutes, so, yeah. So, stepping into Afrobiotics, I think what was immediately apparent was the musical space coming from 18 down to 6. I think that was beautiful. So I was able to relax into a space and that helped me to hear this rhythmic tapestry. So there's all these interrelated rhythms between six of us. More clearly, it became much more apparent, and so that helped me to just step a little quicker along this journey that I'm going down. Now there's this beautiful West African rabbit hole that I'm diving into. So, yeah, that was my experience of going into the Afrobiotics. It was a beautiful experience, and human connections too, that's right, yeah, you felt this too.

Lamine: 38:33

Yeah, no, definitely. Like you know, we were in a very intimate space, you know. So we get to know each other, you know, as friends. And also, you know polyrhythmic does that culturally. You know it's like polyrhythmic. When it comes to that, you're holding a part that is, you know, that crosses with the other part and it's. It's very important to have that. You know, communication going and one can't let let down the other. Yeah, so all of that musically, you know doing that, you know, in repetition, whenever we're rehearsing or playing geek, I guess just, you know, connect with ourselves and our brain and, you know, create this very natural human connection.

AJ: 39:15

So you know through music, we also good friends.

Lamine: 39:16

You know we share, you know create this very natural human connection. So, you know, through music we're also good friends. You know we share a lot in common Our love for music, love for family, you know, so forth. So yeah, it's just powerful, so powerful.

AJ: 39:29

When did that start in you? You said, you're part of a lineage back in Senegal. Was this then, from as far back as you can remember?

Lamine: 39:37

Yes, you know, at our house, the minute you start crawling there is a drum for you to start hitting. You know, in our community same thing. So yeah, I started very young, you know. But in the age of seven I remember my dad hand me over to my uncle, my late uncle, to train us, my late uncle to train us. So, culturally it's like that you're always being handed over to your uncle, if you're female, to your auntie, so they can really work out certain things that you couldn't really have with your parents, because parents are kind of, you know, kept in a very, you know, prestige space, you know, for you to really see them as your gateway to this universe, so you always have that respect. So uncles and aunties would play this other middle, you know, role to make sure that if you're getting a, you know, hothead as a teenager deal, uncle, don't get too father yet, because you need their blessings and those blessings they don't want any interference of it.

Lamine: 40:41

So that's why I was given to my uncle from a young age to train me and he was very open. He was like what do you want to learn? Do you want to drum? I said yes, I started drumming. He said you want to try dancing. I said, yes, you want to sing Anything you wanted. He was just there to help and to also make sure he was teaching us the meaning of it, like he was very strict on whatever we were learning. He will say do you know what it means? Like ah, not really. And then he'll tell you verbally what it means, or in movement, or motion what it means and to what element it connects to. So from a very young age we were kind of nurtured in that way with me and my siblings, and that's how it started for me.

AJ: 41:22

Yeah, I hear the same thing from First Nations here, very similar broadly speaking. It's what we didn't get, eh, simon? No, we didn't.

Simon: 41:33

I was just fascinated by what I just heard from Lamine there. Yeah, it sounds like through family structures there's a formality, there's a commitment across generations. Is that right? That's what it is. And so you said you were trained. To me, that implies like a commitment from your uncle and a type of mindfulness to you know, to seeing if you're staying on track or you're not, and mindfulness to feed you the right things at the right time. Definitely that's what it was. But then being ready to jump in if you are getting off the rails or doing, is that right?

Lamine: 42:09

That's what it was. It's how it was governed.

Simon: 42:11

It's like that's right across Senegal and perhaps Africa in general.

Lamine: 42:15

I would say West Africa. That's how families are tried, created and kinship and yeah, to also look out for each other, because we're all human beings and we have our own emotions, and to just make sure who is there when certain emotions are being triggered or being dealt with. I had a strong sense of that.

Simon: 42:36

Yes, that's right. I hadn't thought of it in those words.

Lamine: 42:39

Yeah, that's why sometimes, when people summarize it as, like you know, men's business or females' business, there's more meaning to that word business. It's like that connection I just explained and it's all put there to just help the individuals find themselves in the way they feel comfortable with. Comfortable with and now, like when I was young, I didn't really get it, but being here and having kids here and not having that community around, I start to really feel like oh wow, now I really appreciate how all of those was put together in a traditional setting.

Simon: 43:14

Anthony, do you mind if I ask a question?

Lamine: 43:16

Of course.

Simon: 43:17

So what is your reflections upon Australian intergenerational connections? You've got a lens through which to view us, and do you see similar things happening in the Melbourne communities that you see here, or is it something you see completely lacking?

Lamine: 43:38

Well, I guess for us migrants sometimes I play some naming ceremonies in Melbourne, here, because I'm from a culture keeper family and the family here want to continue that tradition Just being in there and not having the full community around and having to improvise to make things happen you can already see that a lot is missing. You know, and that's what you know. It's no place like home, as they say, but over there, like I'll give you a quick example like two souls getting together, it starts way before a child is even born. You know, like the, you know they prepare you, like when you know it comes from wedding days. You know, and the sabar, the drum we play, symbolizes that because it's seven pegs on those drums, you know, and those seven pegs, number four represent female and number three represent male, number four represent female and number three represent male. So that whole connection is what tunes the drums to get the right sound that they would play on your wedding day, and it's like it's mandatory that it has to be played in your wedding day and it has to also be played when a child is born to just kind of show the connection and remind the two that your coming together was already seen by ancestors coming, so they even create sounds, create music, you know, to help those connections and while we're here we don't have those access.

Lamine: 45:12

Sometimes you don't have the people who supposed to come sing the song line, like example, my latest daughter, umi, my youngest daughter. When Umi was born, we did a ceremony ritual where the first seven days in the universe Umi didn't receive any names, until the seventh day. And the reason why that is we have to allow me to just be in this unknown place with her soul connecting to all spheres you know, or all elements you know, till the seventh day, and then you can give it a name, but before that she's just a beam of light that we just allow to be in the universe and find their own feet until you receive the name. So you know, I can go on and on and on about this stuff.

Lamine: 46:00

But it's such important steps in what makes a strong family, a strong community and strong ways of preserving traditions.

AJ: 46:10

This is why there's so much to learn, isn't it?

AJ: 46:12

And why you felt it so deeply when you went there because it relates to what we didn't have and this you felt it so deeply when you went there because it relates to what we didn't have and this is what fascinates me in a way, and I feel like it's a central point for, again, everything that comes through, certainly this podcast is, if you call it a riddle or a paradox of freedom and belonging, like, in the name of freedom, the West forged separate paths. You were an individual and your family, your nuclear family, could go and, like mine, left Perth and did its own thing and wasn't very attached to uncles and aunties anymore, and we experienced certainly the pressures that put on nuclear families and the various losses around that, but in the name of freedom, you know, we said before, some of these musical traditions, they're all about liberation, they're all about freedom, but it's doing it in a totally different way.

AJ: 47:06

So what does freedom mean then? I mean it's something that I feel like, I aspire to and value as well, but what does it mean if it actually means being part of something where you're not just breaking out? I'm assuming value as well but what does it mean if it actually means being part of something where you're not just breaking out? I'm assuming you're not just breaking out and riffing on whatever the hell you want in particular. Well, you said it before. You know you're listening and you're not letting the other person down, and it's a different narrative. But that that's freedom.

Lamine: 47:32

Well, I guess you know freedom has many different meanings depending on the individual, because you can experience political freedom, financial freedom or spiritual freedom, depending on, I guess, the individuals and their own interpretation of what it means to be free.

AJ: 47:53

In a context, though, where I guess we've talked about what it means to be human, like it's almost the bigger, there's a bigger task at hand, transcends freedom in a way. That's right.

Lamine: 48:05

You know, and it's the saying we have in Wolof that says it means you must first know the self in order to understand what freedom is all about. You know what I mean, because once you understand the self, you know freedom can be.

AJ: 48:30

You know anything you want to make it really you know, were there any times on your journey where you didn't feel it or it wasn't clear, where it was difficult for you well, many, you know happens a lot, but I guess, um, sometimes those setbacks or adversities, you know having the resilience to go through them.

Lamine: 48:53

That's why it's important to have real connections, because that's what you bounce back to. You know, having the resilience to go through them. That's why it's important to have real connections, because that's what you bounce back to. You know, like just me, being here in Melbourne for 20 years, you know, being started when I was very young, over here there's a lot of setbacks or adversities or, you know, issues you have to kind of culture shock and all of those things. But having something very powerful to always lean on, or seeing the cosmos as a place of belonging, it does help the soul not to feel lost, and that itself is freedom.

AJ: 49:31

Yeah, almost. Couldn't say it better, could we? I was going to ask you what do you think, mate, can you top that?

Simon: 49:37

No, what he said. Yeah, but yeah, I guess you know just one little reflection. You know that there's freedom can be like an external, in air quotes, external freedom like in politics, but then there can be internal freedom, this untying of internal states, where we can trip ourselves up knowingly, like through conscious choices, or unknowingly through, through, uh, I guess, poor choices and so on. Yeah, that's probably enough to say on that. Yeah, that's a whole other discussion.

AJ: 50:06

Well, it does it relates to something I was going to bring up. Your broader life has been for some time dedicated to a transcendent path, if you will yes of that nature in.

Simon: 50:15

Buddhism?

AJ: 50:15

Yes, absolutely how do they relate to each other? That journey in Buddhism with similar overtures you know in how I'm hearing you talk about it to your current experiences through this, yeah well, I guess I can link it back to one of my teachers would say you know that music is an outer expression of inner realisations.

Simon: 50:34

So that's the bridge between outer and inner. And yeah, look, it's a complex question with complex answers, but perhaps that's the most succinct way of describing how I might try and approach my music these days. So I think, having come to Dakar and to see a real family like you're all, family Lamin but then seeing a musical family and musical community and then the broader community, I think my music practice is going, I'm hoping will become more about human connections and feeling a human energy and trying to tap into that some way. But these are all very fresh thoughts to me. I probably can't quite articulate it clearly clearer than that. Yet there is a healing thrust to it. Absolutely there's a healing, yeah, and I felt a physical release in my body through being and particularly through the experiences of being with large drumming ensembles.

Simon: 51:34

Again, Lamina, I don't have words for it yet, but I found myself in tears in the theatre seeing your orchestra play and perform and rehearse, and I think the gravity of it now correct me. If I'm wrong, you walked out before they played and you said this is ritual. This is not art or words to that effect. Yeah, that opened up something very deep in me and the again you were talking about the non-verbal, it affected some kind of shift in me that I don't have words for, but I'm very curious about what that's done for me and that's yeah.

AJ: 52:18

I've got a lot more to explore there.

Lamine: 52:19

It's lovely to hear Simon, you know, because I guess that whole you know theatre show is what it's aiming to do. Yes, it's to show everyone that you know you have access to so many different spheres and to give you the keys to you know. Get there yourself, yeah, To experience of you know what the eyes are seeing, what the ears are hearing. You know through dance and movement as well, Like we talked about when we were in Senegal. You know, the word for dance means fechi, which means to untie, and the word for rhythm starts from this first rhythm called kajaldi, which means fast, which is to untie, and the word for rhythm start from this first rhythm called gajaldi, which means fast, which is to tie. So it's tying and untying. That's what rhythm and dance is about. You know what I mean.

Lamine: 53:07

So I just felt that because you play music, you know, and we play this music for a long time, you know, you, and now, seeing the community where the music is very much connected to, automatically you are untying. You know what I mean different spheres, and I guess that's the feeling sometimes no one can find words for. You know, Beautifully put, yeah, but I'm glad it's happening because you know it just shows again the power of music, you know, and where it comes from, because music itself is a ritual. It's so ancient, it's been around before we know it. Now it's here and it's going to keep on going and I just feel like we're kind of very lucky to find, you know, friendship, you know deeper connection in playing music for other people, Because most of the time if it's for us playing it, we just stay at home the reason why we create bands and want to tour is to go share it.

Lamine: 54:10

So that itself is a very amazing gifted heart. If you're not really a gifting, you know human being you won't really put that much effort into just making sure that someone can hear it and feel good.

AJ: 54:25

Guys, thanks a lot for this conversation. It's been so special and so central, I think, to life itself, and so for a podcast that's dedicated to regenerating the essence of life itself. This is just bang on, so I really appreciate it. I'm curious what comes next.

Simon: 54:45

That's a very good question, as I've been alluding to throughout this whole discussion. I've got big questions, so to me it's some kind of journey around making human connections closer to why I play music. That's my personal, that's what comes next for me, embracing that and growing that. Maybe we'll finish some of our half-written songs. Yeah, I've still got them on the hard drive One day the hard drive one day.

AJ: 55:18

Yeah, I mean, of course you've just come you were telling me before from a theater performance back in senegal as well. That also went beautifully, a sort of a closed house near people that you were describing before. What about you? Is their intent to sort of roll that out here, or what's next for you?

Lamine: 55:32

yes, that's the aim. Actually, I worked with the artists in Senegal from the National Theatre, who I'm having a partnership with. The aim is to bring the show here in 2025. We're already working in partnership with Arts House here in North Melbourne. It's a wonderful theatre and community of artists who are already premiering the show here in Australia and we have other conversations with a few other arts festivals to try to tour that piece of work around Australia. So that's one thing to do.

Lamine: 56:07

And again, the Afrobiotics, while we were in Senegal we recorded a beautiful song with an all-female band called Orchestra Djigenyi. So you know we're about to release that music and hopefully do a video clip that shows that all-women band, the Jigenyi Orchestra, and hopefully that will take us back to Senegal to tour that music.

AJ: 56:36

Wow, when's it due for release?

Lamine: 56:38

Well, we'll have to talk to Tristan and the others and fix up a date, but it's going to be the same time as our album, which I think in the next six months time it would be out. AJ: A nd would something come to mind to take us out?

Lamine: 56:51

LAMINE: Because in our conversation Simon talked about my cousin giving me a song line. So it's my duty to actually play it for whoever may listen to this podcast in future. So they know that I've done it in the traditional and respectful way. So I come from the Seng Seng family and it's mandatory that whenever you mention that family you have to also play the rhythm to pay respect. So I'm gonna play that rhythm. That's one. And the second rhythm is called Yani Mom. Yani Mom is a rhythm w e start with everything we do and we end with everything we do. So I'm gonna start with the song line of the Seng Seng family and it sounds like this... So Yani Mom is a rhythm that says we give thanks and gratitude for life. A ll the energies that help us as a collective. So Yani Mom goes like this..

Simon: 58:27

Thank you Lamine, that was beautiful.

AJ: 58:29

I'm grateful to know you both. Thanks again for speaking with me. Welcome home to you.

Lamine: 58:34

And SIMON: Thank you, Anthony. Thank you Anthony. Thank you very much, thank you.

AJ: 58:44

That was Lamine Sonko and Simon Edwards from the Afrobiotics. For more on Lamine, Simon and the band, see the links in the show notes. There's a little footage from the tour in Dakar currently on their website too. The 13 minute video has an amazing beginning too. I feature a few photos on the Regeneration website and more still for subscribers on Patreon. And speaking of which, thanks again to you generous supporting listeners, for making this episode possible. If you've been thinking about becoming a member or other kind of supporter, please join us. Just head to the website or the show notes and follow the prompts. Thank you. A nd thanks, as always, for sharing the podcast with friends and rating it on your preferred app. The music you're hearing is Disco Dakar by the Afrobiotics. My name's Anthony James. Thanks for listening.