You Want Evidence for Regen Ag? Here It Is, with Jonathan Lundgren

Just weeks ago, I published a piece on Substack titled: Two 'Regen' Farmers Walk Into An Oval Office Debate Blind-Sided – and exit with the 'most support we’ve ever had’. Those two farmers are legends. Will Harris from White Oak Pastures in Georgia, and my guest today, former USDA scientist, now farmer and independent researcher in South Dakota, Dr Jonathan Lundgren.

Jon’s story is the stuff of blockbuster films – kind of like the Michael Lewis stories that inspired The Big Short and Moneyball. Jon was a gun researcher with the USDA, but as he came to find deep concerns with chemical use in agriculture, he came to find deeper concerns with the political suppression of that research. 

It was actually while receiving a distinguished award from another President that it hit him, ‘playing by the rules of the game wasn’t going to change how we produce food.’ Profound upheaval ensued. He quit his job and began planning what became a successfully crowdfunded farm and research foundation, propelled by a vision to transform food systems. 

Just the other day, Blue Dasher Farm and Ecdysis Foundation celebrated their 10th birthdays, and a brewing paradigm change in food, farming and the health of people and planet. 

And the Foundation’s 1000 Farms initiative, whose extraordinary findings proved pivotal to the Executive Order that emerged from the Oval Office that day, and now believed to be the largest database of regenerative food systems in the world, is going global, including to Australia, without any cost to farmers, or for that matter, to the rest of us.

Jon joins me at dusk on the farm. 

If you’d like to go straight to a particular part of our conversation, or essentially view a table of contents, you can navigate via the chapter markers and transcript.

Recorded 27 August 2026.

Title image by Katie Bell at the Regenerate Conference 2024 (where ep231 was recorded – A Force for Mending?).

Register your farm via the 1000 Farms link above.

Update on the situation at Kachana Station, as a bid is launched to save the donkeys. Thanks to everyone who has responded with your support.

Music: 

Open Wide, by Russo feat. Roy Dotan (from Artlist).

Regeneration, by Amelia Barden.

Transcript

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Hard Proof Regen Works

Jon 0:01

We've got hard data. This became the largest database of regenerative food systems in existence. It's the third largest bioinventory ever conducted by humans. And it the data is like what these farmers I mean what they've developed is real. We're not making this up. It's true, it's scalable, it's transferable. This is the answer that we've been looking for.

Meet Jonathan Lundgren And The Stakes

AJ 0:31

G'day, Anthony James here for The RegenNarration, featuring the stories that are changing the story, enabling the regeneration of this living planet. Just weeks ago, I published a piece on Substack titled Two Regen Farmers Walk into an Oval Office Debate Blindsided and Exit with the most support we've ever had. Those two farmers are legends in the US. Will Harris from White Oak Pastures in Georgia, and my guest today, former USDA scientist, now farmer and independent researcher in South Dakota, Dr. Jonathan Lundgren. Jon's story is the stuff of blockbuster films. Kinda like the Michael Lewis stories that inspired the Big Short or Moneyball, Jon was a gun researcher with the USDA, but as he came to find deep concerns with chemical use in agriculture, he came to find deeper concerns with the political suppression of that research. It was actually while receiving a distinguished award from another president that it hit him. Playing by the rules of the game wasn't gonna change how we produce food. Profound upheaval ensued. He quit his job and began planning what became a successfully crowdfunded farm and research foundation, propelled by a vision to transform food systems. And just the other day, Blue Dasher Farm and Ecdysis Foundation celebrated their 10th birthdays and brewing paradigm change in food, farming and the health of people and planet. And the Foundation's 1000 Farms Initiative, whose extraordinary findings proved pivotal to the executive order that emerged from the Oval Office that day, is now going beyond the US, including to Australia, without any cost to farmers, or for that matter, to the rest of us. Jon, great to see you, mate. Thanks a lot for joining me.

Jon 2:22

Oh, it's a pleasure. Thanks for having

Life On Blue Dasher Farm

Jon 2:24

me on.

AJ 2:24

You're at the farm and uh well across the road at the office, but can you bring us into your home? As if I was there, which I tend to like to be to be honest, but I'm not. So can you bring us in? What how does it feel to you? What does it mean?

Jon 2:36

Oh, um, well, we have a house and our headquarters are both on Blue Dasher Farm. And so uh yeah, I have to make an excuse to leave the place every once in a while. Um but uh it's good. It's good. Uh we've got it's a diversified farm. Um, I just came in, I'm trying to build fences to keep the sheep in because they really have been defying damn near every fence that I've come up with. And uh I came home and our Cooney Cooney pigs were had broken through the fence into the garden. I think we just have like fence chaos on this one. So uh we then we went and picked some apples in the orchard tonight, and uh now I'm sitting here and talking with friends across the across the planet. What a crazy world we live in, huh?

AJ 3:33

Oh couldn't have said it better. And you know, I appreciate those difficulties and I shouldn't laugh too too quickly, uh, but I sense you love it at the same time.

Jon 3:46

You know, it's one of those things uh where all of the piccadillos and all of the all of the you know imperfections, I know each and every one of those. And and and to me that that makes it personal, doesn't it? And uh somebody else might come onto this farm and see something totally different than what I see. But um yeah, that's okay.

AJ 4:15

Yeah, yeah.

After The White House Meeting

AJ 4:16

And and you still chart a unique life in a sense that you still bridge back almost to your old days, dare I say, with um your connections to Washington. Yeah. Obviously, we we connected over in our famous meeting in the Oval Office, then it ended in the executive order for Regen Ag. I wonder now, what are we? Two months on.

Jon 4:36

Yeah.

AJ 4:36

What have you observed? How are you feeling?

Jon 4:39

It's been one one month. Um I don't know. Uh yeah, yeah. Uh we gotta hold their feet to the fire at this point. And um if this is what they want, and that's what he said, then then let's then prove it, right? Um so we're climate week's coming on strong. Um this week in New York, or rather, next month in New York City. Our research is rolling out now. Uh one of our flagship papers is about to hit. There's no more denying whether regen works. It it's uh the data's real strong. And we're gonna roll that out with a press campaign to hopefully you know knock each one of these papers into the um into the vernacular, let's put it that way. Uh right now, we really need that. Um so uh every time that you know some national crisis or problem comes up, we want to show regen's the answer. Uh it it it addresses that, you know, because it it in so many ways it's one of these root solutions to many of the uh issues that we're really facing right now.

AJ 6:03

Right. We were just talking off air about where where this podcast started, and it started at the same time as Charlie Massy's book came out here, Call of the Read Warbler.

Jon 6:12

I've got that. I just looked at that on my bookshelf. I haven't gotten a chance to read it yet, but I've heard it's amazing.

AJ 6:18

Hey, it's funny you should say that because it's epic, right? Yeah, it's it's big. Yeah, yeah. I think there are a lot of people that have it on their bookshelf and haven't read it yet. You're probably not alone.

Jon 6:28

I've heard it's great, though. Oh I can't wait.

AJ 6:30

It's amazing, yeah. And it was game-changing, certainly, here and ended up being published out of Chelsea Green over in the States and reached globally as well. But I remember him saying to me back then, he said it's a matter of having the solutions on the shelf for when people are ready. We can't force change. But yeah, that's what he said then.

Jon 6:49

That's that's exactly the our mantra as well. You know, I mean, we we we we have to be there when people are are ready to to change. Evolution is a really crappy thing to watch. Um and and yeah, it's probably necessary, but that doesn't mean that it's gonna be pretty and you gotta be there for the people that want to change, but for those that don't, ouch. That's gonna be a hard pill, right?

AJ 7:20

Yeah. Right. Yeah. Well, speaking of what you have come to through the research, what is just straight up and down for you now, that you did land in the Oval Office that day in a powerful way. I guess that's probably almost rote for you now, the the the quick grab summary. But for those that haven't come across it, do you want to trot it out for us now, essentially? What is the grunt of how it is so cut and dry from your your findings?

Jon 7:48

Regen Outcomes Beyond Carbon

Jon 7:49

So regenerative ag is more than just about carbon. It does a lot of things and it's outcome-based, right? Uh, it addresses water issues, uh, both flooding and desertification. It increases nutrition of food, it improves the wellness, the physical mental wellness of farmers. It reduces agri pollution, which is rampant right now and causing all kinds of issues.

AJ 8:14

For you personally, too. It's a very personal experience on your farm.

Jon 8:18

Absolutely, it is. Absolutely it is. Every person, there's an elephant in the room, right? When I go into every single talk, there's this elephant in the room, and that is they all all these farmers, well, with especially within cropping systems, they know that there's people in their families that are experiencing weird things. And um, and they're choosing not to connect the dots there. The the biggest thing is um, you know, profit, but uh the biggest thing is is is biodiversity. And and that's really been a key finding is that all of those other regenerative outcomes, be they ecological or economic or social or or uh medical, um all of them are tied to one thing, and that's the amount of life on farms. And and that's really great because that's something that farmers get to control, right? They manage the amount of life on their farm through their management decisions. And I just encourage them to do just that, to to think, okay, is this decision that I'm gonna do right now, is this increasing the amount of life on my farm or reducing it? And that doesn't mean, oh, how many soybeans can I get per acre? You know, that that that's more how many different species I can get, you know, per acre.

AJ 9:49

And yet you're finding that yield holds up as well.

Jon 9:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't you don't lose money going regen. We can feed the world going regen. Uh the agronomy, right? Oh, yeah, no, I can't do regenerative. It's uh too wet, too dry, too hot, too cold. That may work on your farm. It'll never work on mine. Uh, every single community that we have visited, we have found farmers that are pushing it, that are developing successful regenerative systems. And so, yeah, this is these are not the hurdles that farmers are are calling them. They're performance answers. Um, I just learned that word the other day. I was talking with a sociologist, and they're like, No, no, no, there's there's there's the answers that we are we think we're supposed to say, yeah, and then there's the answers that are really driving us. And uh until you get to those answers, the ones that are really driving us, we're not moving the needle. And so this is not an agronomic problem, this is not an economic problem, this is not a yield performance problem. Yeah, they have to be there, but that's not what's motivating decisions, certainly not in the US. Um management behaviors, especially change, the levers of change that I've found most effective are calling out those the the health of your family. And you're responsible for that. You gotta own that one. That one moves the needle. Um, when I tell the farmers, listen, you're borrowing eight hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year to make fifty thousand dollars, and you stopped asking where that other 800 grand went. There's a whole lot of people that are making money in farming. It ain't the farmers, it's these large multinational corporations that are milking you dry and you line up to do it again year after year after year. Yeah. That one lands.

AJ 12:10

Oh, it's landing right now, even though I've heard it before. It's just sobering. But that's interesting that you are finding it lands with the people in the gun.

Jon 12:19

They know it. They're not talking about it, but they know it.

AJ 12:24

It's interesting what holds us, isn't it?

Jon 12:26

What works with you? I mean, when you're talking, I mean, what what moves the needle when you're talking to a farmer group and you want to inspire them, right? If you you want to motivate them to change, what are the things that seems to that you notice works?

AJ 12:43

Oh, I would say ditto, straight up. And I'd add, I'd add, and I wonder if you find this too, that in order to get past what was it, the performing answer, which is commonly understood to be true in all sorts of in classrooms, like in all sorts of so this is a human that's what we're taught. Yeah, exactly. So to get past that, you have to feel like you're safe enough to to do it, don't you? So whether it is kids in the classroom or whether it's you know, farmers or adults in the classroom or farmers or or any cohort, so there's a context of not feeling attached. Once you're on the defensive, it's it's sort of game over, isn't it? Nothing moves.

Health Risks And The Chemical Link

AJ 13:26

It's it's a it's a battle. So that's the other thing I've observed. It if you can transcend the battle or or absorb the bloodlet, the vent, um, that there's a there's a prospect of getting past that performing as well. Yeah, you seen that?

Jon 13:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think there's so there's there's you get up on stage and sometimes you need a bitch slap, right? I mean, somebody that just gets up there and whacks you, right? Because you're so I mean, at least in in the US, people are, I mean, farmers are like ingrained. Okay, I'm gonna go to this meeting, they're gonna tell me how to get three more bushels an acre, and everybody's gonna pat me on the back because I'm feeding the world, right? And then suddenly somebody gets up there and like changes the narrative, and they're like, whoa, what what what's going on? Doing that in such a way where they identify with you still, and they understand, okay, this this guy's really telling me things I don't want to hear, but I kind of get the feeling like he's on my side still. Yeah, that's the trick.

AJ 14:40

So it's worth also bringing to the table, I reckon, some of the stuff that you've you've found through your years of research going around farms all over the States, and we'll come to a bit more detail of that later, and indeed now that you're coming to Australia. But aside from all those yield wins, profit wins because you've got less costs and all that stuff, there is you with in terms of these neurological diseases we're seeing in epidemic proportions, and now there's more and more understanding and airtime coming to the link between this chemical farming and these outcomes. But you have found. If I go through this, row croppers in the US have twice the asthma rates, three times the clinical depression, three times the cancer rate, and a 2,600-fold increase in Parkinson's compared to the rest of society.

Jon 15:29

Yeah.

AJ 15:29

How does that land when you trot that out?

Jon 15:33

Yeah, that's it right there, right? I mean, we're killing our farmers. For corporate greed, we're killing our farmers. Um I mean, you guys are experiencing that oh over in Australia, aren't you? What what are the do you have any idea what the disease rates or some of these chronic illnesses and mental health issues are in Australia?

AJ 15:55

It's a really good question. I don't think yet, I know there are people on it, and and we have a section in in our riverina, we call it, uh, that is now becoming called MND or ALS in the States, MND alley, motor neuron disease, because of the seven, I think it's seven times the national rate uh occurring there. Yeah. And so there's there's sort of general understandings now that and and pressing the buttons for people to go, okay, we need to research this more, that's there. But it's more, I would say to date in Australia, the understanding we have is how loose the regulation is. So even just leading up to our conversation, there's been a lot of talk about that only 15% of identified high-use pesticide products used here, only 15% have international approval. 60% banned in the EU, and only 24% banned in at least one other country, and only 15 with international approval. And that paraquat's one of those. Oh dear. And there's been a review going on of Paraquat for 27 years, it just goes on. So we're an outlier in that regard, and that's becoming understood.

Jon 17:12

Okay, so are farmers I'm gonna ask a controversial question. How long do we allow? Do we turn to blind eye to the fact that farmers are making these decisions, that there are alternatives, and that the farmers are choosing to apply these things? Um is ignorance in this modern age an acceptable answer anymore. Is that acceptable?

AJ 17:47

It's a good question. I certainly feel like there's an extent to which you have to take responsibility. You can't just plead all the factors. Oh, excuse me. That's a that's a ranch calling me. I kept it on in case we needed it. A ranch in the Kimberly calling me.

Jon 18:06

Saved by the bell, boy, you you yeah, you dodged that one nicely done. I see.

AJ 18:15

But yeah, like it's funny, you know, in many respects, it's nothing we don't teach our 12-year-old boy.

Jon 18:22

Yeah, right.

AJ 18:22

That ignorance isn't good enough, you know?

Jon 18:24

Hey, don't play over by that stuff. That stuff, yeah, that's not the kind of stuff you want to be yeah, get over away from those jugs.

AJ 18:32

Yeah.

Jon 18:33

Right? But they still spray it on every damn acre.

AJ 18:36

Yeah. And for that matter, not just farmers, you know, but but the rest of us with the stuff. Yeah, yeah.

Jon 18:43

No, you go down to the local hardware store or or whatever department store and you pull it off of the shelf. Somebody must have said this was safe. Come on. Uh

Pesticide Regulation And Why Nobody Watches

Jon 18:55

nobody's watching. I could tell you I worked in risk assessment for 25 years. I advise the US EPA and the universe or the European Food Safety Authority, right, on pesticide risks, genetically modified crop risks. Nobody's watching. How could they? I mean, there's 20 in the US alone, there's 20,000 formulations of several hundred active ingredients. The active ingredients are the only ones that have to pass through any regulation. The formulations change the risk scenario entirely such that every formulation presents a unique risk profile. 20,000 of them. Who's gonna pay? Who's gonna do that work? The only one who's doing it right now are the registrants, the pesticide companies themselves. They provide the data on the safety of their product for the regulators. Nobody's watching.

AJ 20:00

Yeah, that's it, hey. It's on us. And you mentioned your previous role there and how you did play that role in the past. It made me think when seeing you in the Oval Office this time, the last time you had, well, the last time, another time you had a presidential encounter with Barack Obama was receiving an award, but that was a moment of transformation for you. That's when you decided you needed to change.

Jon 20:25

Yeah.

The Obama Moment And Unseeing The Evidence

AJ 20:26

What do you remember of that time?

Jon 20:29

Um, it was tumultuous, it was it was schizophrenic. Um on one hand, I was on top of the scientific you know, world. I was named one of the top young scientists in the country um by the president, yeah, of all people. And but yet there was still so many issues that were being that that weren't being solved. And so I was like in this weird spot where it's like, uh, all right, I'm doing this, uh, everything, I'm getting so much positive feedback at this point, right? I'm doing my job great. But yet things weren't getting better.

AJ 21:12

Well, there's a parallel, isn't there? It's a fascinating parallel to think of all the people who could say that.

Jon 21:18

Well, uh, I mean, it it besci I wasn't doing my science to make things better. I was saying I was, and I could chart, I could, I was really good at at telling you all of the different ways my science was helping. But the reality was quite different, and and so, you know, we started doing more high-risk research, I suppose. I mean, we started investigating and and talking about it, really, and communicating. The beekeepers came to me. They said, John, these pesticides, they're killing off our bees. I'm like, no, no, no, no. The research is uh is not black and white. On that, it's pretty gray, and I said, Come on out, take a look at our bees when the when that when that planter is going and they're planting the corn with the Neonix on it. And and I did. And I couldn't undo what I saw. And it became very clear that I had to be asking my scientific questions within the right context, otherwise, we were going to get the wrong answers. And uh the same ended up happening with the well, now they're called regenerative farmers, right? At the time they weren't. And uh they were saying that they could they were achieving things. I was still pretty focused on entomology at the time. Um, and so they were telling me they didn't need pesticides anymore. I'm like, that can't be, right? I mean, the best you can hope for is to reduce the amount of pesticides that you need. That's that's that's the best we could really look for here. And and they were showing that they didn't need the junk anymore. And I'm like, and I couldn't unsee it. That was that was real. They were developing very successful systems where this wasn't needed anymore. And uh yeah, and so I started talking about that, and suddenly, you know, that became a threat. That became uh overturning the Apple cart. And uh so everything changed after that. You had to go out and see it though, huh? That's the critical piece. I think isn't that true? Isn't it so often? I think for us to change, we it needs to be experiential. And I'm a cynical person, okay? Uh I'm a scientist, I'm trained. I'm trained to be cynical. They beat that out of you. If they yeah, any any any sort of yeah, uh hmm, belief system is the hope. That's that's probably false, but that's the hope. The hope is that you self-assess, that you're trained to self-assess. And uh, yeah, there you are. Yeah.

AJ 24:20

So that tumultuousness must have only got more so with you churning on the inside and trying to blaze this trail and then finding the pushback.

USDA Suppression And The Personal Cost

Jon 24:32

Yeah.

AJ 24:32

And then going all the way through into a court system, even a court process. How do you reflect on that all these years later and ultimately your decision to start a farm and everything else that's come with it?

Jon 24:47

It was it was incredibly risky. I was I was so confident. I had all the answers. Um I thought that any any fights I would pick, that I could handle it. Right? And I didn't understand that it wasn't just me. Um that I was dragging everybody that I cared through that as well. Um yeah, the USDA began suppressing science. Um the science that we were doing that I thought, yeah, well, it was good science, so there was no reason to, for political reasons, they were suppressing it. Um attacking me, attack uh yeah, uh harassing my employees. Um yeah, it got pretty bad. And um ultimately uh filed a whistleblower uh complaint about it questioning the scientific integrity of the USDA, and uh and I quit. Um but not before it did it had escalated to even more stress, I imagine, going through a court process. Yeah. Uh yeah, well, uh, you know, it wasn't like a formal hearing or anything like that. It was and and what we were asking is for the USDA to slap itself on the wrist, and and there's there wasn't really any compelling reason that that they would. Um you believed in it enough to keep trying to get it to happen. Mm-hmm. It was it was the right thing to do. Um the USDA uh did a survey of the of the scientific staff, um and they were really proud of the results. Only 10% of the scientists um had experienced research suppression for political reasons. So they were like, yeah, only 10%. Like, there's 2,000 scientists. That means 200 other scientists had experienced the same sort of shit that I did, and they didn't say anything about it. And um and I believed in we have to have the ability, the scientific community has to have the ability to talk about what it is that we're finding. Um to help use that data to hopefully to steer things in the in a in a correct direction, especially when especially when it's different than what we've been experiencing. Because the status quo, we don't change otherwise. And there's a long history, I mean, of of uh uh scientists that are martyrs because they uh suggested uh you know a major change to uh the system, so to speak. Yeah. Um but and and there was a tremendous desire amongst the anti-pesticide group, the anti-GMO group, the you know, anti-establishment group that man Lundgren, look at what he did, you know, he stood up and he yeah, he he gave it back to him. Oh my gosh, you know. We need to recruit him and do and to do more of this stuff, right? And and and it would have been very easy for that to become uh my identity. And I don't think I'd be here right now if that had happened. Yeah, um you might say that, but yeah. I I um so yeah, I I it was the right thing to do, but I that's all a matter of perspective. I don't think that my family would say that was the right thing to do for them. Is that what hit you in the moment you decided to jump off that trek? My wife left. Um uh soon afterwards. Um the I lost my job. I I lost my yeah, my illustrious career. I pushed all of my money onto this farm. And um the stress of it was uh I mean, yeah, it was a roller coaster. And how on earth could I expect other people that I care about to do that? Uh everybody that was on my staff, I dragged them through the through the crap. Um, yeah, all of them ended up with jobs. I was able to finish the graduate students that I had started, and yeah, but it was wasn't easy. And so here I am. And I'd l uh rolled the dice and I lost everything. And uh I'm sitting on this farm, this intoxicated farm that I didn't understand. And and I could say I did the right thing, but I still lost an awful lot. Would I do it again? Yeah, I probably would.

AJ 30:36

Yeah, it's tough, isn't it? Like I think so many of us can would say that about the toughest things in our lives. Like, if you get through, if you do get through, that it can because you look back in the paradox of it, is it it's pivotal to where you

Why Scientists Need To Farm

AJ 30:52

are now and and making such a brilliant contribution to the right. I I wouldn't think that's yeah. If we go to that moment, what did you do next?

Jon 31:01

Um, I quit my job. I I decided that okay, what would science look like if we really wanted to use science to usher in the evolution of a new food system? Because I know what science looks like if we wanted to make the current broken system work a little better. Yeah. But that wasn't getting us where we had to go. We had to rethink things. And I said, well, step one is I think the scientists have to be farmers. I think we actually have to walk the talk. And so yeah, I bought Blue Dasher. Um, and uh I never had to learn so much so fast. It became really clear that scientists were never meant to be the experts on farming, that that we were always meant to be servants, and and that farmers were the experts on farming, and scientists can bring things to the table, but gone were the days of me getting up on a stage and saying what a farmer ought to do with their farm. I can tell you what other farmers have done with their farms, it seems to work, but yeah, I don't know. Um, it changed the questions we ask, it changed how we ask them, and and and through that I understand now what the potential of our food system is, and I wouldn't have understood that if I hadn't gone through what I did.

AJ 32:33

Yeah, isn't it interesting to think? I made it for the record, grateful that you did in that sense. So you picked up the farm. That was 10 years ago. You just had the 10th birthday,

Jon 32:46

huh? Yeah, you too.

AJ 32:48

Yeah, well, right? Right on, I didn't think about that. Yeah, here's two. Holy shit. You yeah, we're yeah, we both uh yeah, there must have been something in the water in the 2016, huh? Something in the good water. So you you crowdfunded two-way. This was part of it. It was a community that rallied for you.

Jon 33:07

yeah, yeah, it was. We uh it was an Indiegogo campaign. Is Indiegogo even still around?

AJ 33:14

I don't know. I haven't seen it in a while.

Jon 33:15

It's this crowdfunding thing where you kind of like normally they people sell like, okay, I got this great idea for a gizmo, and if you if you give 25 bucks, then we'll give you, you know, this widget, you know, kind of a thing. And that wasn't what we were doing. We we said uh there's this idea that regenerative agriculture could save our place on the planet, and we need science in order to do that, and we want to try the best way of doing it. And so, really, what they supported, and hundreds of people around the planet ended up doing that, uh, gave money to support an idea that that uh yeah, that a research facility on a farm that was specifically focused on regenerative agriculture and a whole different idea behind regenerative agriculture could make a difference, and that's that's how we got our start. And that was the foundation that started out of that, Icdysis? Yeah, yeah. So the 501c3, yeah. Uh yeah, there are two sides of a coin, Blue Dasher and Ecdicus. In those days, our almost our entire identity was Blue Dasher Farm. People could get that, right? They understood what the blue uh dragonfly farm, I gotcha. Yep. Um Ecdicus? What the hell is that, right? And and even to this day, you know, I sometimes I still regret naming it that, but it I wanted uh now our identity is all much I think it's more egg Dysis than it is a blue dasher. So that's really been interesting. I think that's an outcome of Thousand Farms, is um people started to figure out how to say Ecdysis and what it means. Shedding the old skin.

AJ 35:17

Yeah, yeah. Process of an insect shedding its old skin, not nod to your past. And uh yeah, it's funny as a with a podcast name that branders also say was stupid because it's too confusing for people, unless even when they see it, and certainly if they don't, uh yeah, here' s to enduring naive name choices.

Crowdfunding A Farm-Based Research Foundation

AJ 35:36

So, Thousand Farms, you mentioned it. Did you start that out of the gate? Was that the concept you ran with out of the gate? I'm gonna get around to all these farms. How did that happen?

Jon 35:45

Um you know, there was farmers that were making some pretty bold claims, this regenerative thing was really starting to take off. Uh decision makers were taking notice. But what these farmers were saying, science said couldn't happen. And so here we are. I mean, at this point, I mean, I was I had lost everything, right? I was like in a gutter. Uh I was in a rut so deep you could hang posters. Um and and COVID rolls around, and um, and you know, I don't ever wish COVID back in in any earnest, but one of the outcomes was uh there was quiet time, and and I'm like, I'm gonna come up with something. I'm gonna come up with this. Uh what would it take? What would an experiment look like if we were to like bridge that gap, right? Is it number one, put hard data behind what these farmers are saying across the country, no, across the world, we're gonna do this. And uh we'll measure all of the regenerative outcomes. I mean, this is this is you know, uh dream

Building The Thousand Farms Initiative

Jon 37:04

big kind of a thing, right? We're gonna measure all of these different outcomes, uh, hundreds and hundreds of data types. We're gonna do it from a farm in the middle of nowhere, South Dakota, and we're gonna uh we're not we're going to actually go to these farms. We're not gonna use satellite imagery or something like this. We're gonna meet the farmers, we're gonna see our food system. And um all cropping systems, all livestock systems uh in different ecoregions. That was huge. And honestly, I mean, if I I used to serve on grant panels, if I had seen this thing, I just said, This is impossible, right? And we were told this is impossible. In fact, a third of the staff looked at what I was where I mean, all right, Lundren's driving the airplane into the side of the mountain now, and they left. Um, and we start we hired on a new staff. I'm like, this is it, we're doing it. Wow, and uh and it worked. Not just worked, I mean, it's like over the last five seasons, I've trained a crew of, you know, well, on average at any one moment, about 30 to 35 individuals um to be pretty damn good scientists, and I've spit them across the country, and they are they are yeah, on an intimate level, they have learned what our food system is on 2,000 farms. We've got hard data. This has become the largest database of of regenerative food systems in existence. It's the third largest bioinventory ever conducted by humans. Um, it's like and we haven't stopped yet. So it's and it the data is like what these farmers, I mean, what they've developed is real. I'm we're not making this up. It's true, it's scalable, it's transferable. This is the answer that we've been looking for.

AJ 39:13

And there's more to go, huh? You're still dreaming big?

Jon 39:16

Yeah, we're uh so you know, now we want this. So we're globalizing the initiative at this point. Uh, we're coming to Australia in October, I think, is the is when we decided, and then probably next March as well. And then um we're trying to figure out, at least we're starting in areas where we don't have to, I mean, there's some infrastructure, they speak English, that kind of stuff, just so that we can kind of practice. Yeah, you don't want to just jump into Tanzania for crying out loud. I mean, it it would, yeah. Um, but we'll be there eventually, you know. Um yeah, and then we're also um, I mean, we're trying to turn the Thousand Farms Initiative into the Gazillion Farms

Training Farmers To Be Scientists

Jon 40:06

Initiative. Um, we need to scale this, right? And and there's only one really compelling way to do that, and and that's to train farmers to be scientists. And so through Project Avalanche, we're democratizing the Thousand Farms um initiative. All of the methodology, all of the tool sets, we give them to farming communities. They get to experience things together as they're innovating their food system, and then they can go out and measure it and put it through the grower portal. It'll interpret it. And based on interpret or participation in the study, it'll also contextualize things. So it'll say, okay, yeah, so-and-so is trying this weird ass cover crop mix or something, and these were the results. It uh, you know, it's anonymized, unless you don't mind us sharing your information. But the hope is that this becomes a community development tool. Because that's really one of the huge biggest hindrances to innovation right now, is that you know, the the farmers oftentimes are that are truly trying something new and wacko. I mean, they're all alone. And uh and and this gives them support and um and a community. So we trained more than 200 farmers to be scientists this year in the US. It was pretty darn cool, and uh, and we're gonna up that to several thousand um over the next couple of years.

AJ 41:43

Yeah, well it makes me think where we started too, that the farmers that might not feel like they can stop giving their performative answers, but perhaps this offers them away as well.

Jon 41:57

Yeah. Yeah, the data is equalizing, right? It's a it's a it's really, yeah. Uh it's so fun to watch too, because it also is a totally different lens that they get to experience their farm with. Normally, you know, you walk through your pasture or something, you know there's plant diversity out there and stuff. You that's good enough, right? And then you have to put a quadrat down there and count the number of species. And and what it does is it kind of gives you a totally different perspective or a sweep net. You know how many times I've put a sweep, uh, like an insect net into a farmer's hand and told them, give me 15 sweeps over there in that in that uh in that bush. And and they come out and they're just like, Look at all these insects that we just caught. This was only like 10 sweeps or something. I'm like, yeah, that's in there all the time. That is totally on your farm, and they're doing great things. You can't run this place without them. It's magnificent. Yeah, because that never ends, does it? It's like no, it shouldn't. Yeah, well, exactly. They all want to know. They all want to know, okay, John, what's the what's the what's the dipstick? I want to stick it into the soil and pull it out, and I want to say, okay, soil health, she's full, right? And what's the what's out of all of your w uh gizmos and widgets, what's the most important one? The one thing. I'm like, go out on your farm every single day. You should find something that you've never seen before. And if you do that and you retain that sense of wonder, then that is more, that is more effective and predictive than any of the scientific instruments that I can contrive. To think that we would go from crude measures. Of yield alone to Wonder as the core of a functioning, healthy, farm, profitable farm.

AJ 44:12

Yeah. So you do this in a way that it doesn't cost the farmer either.

Jon 44:19

No, yeah, we're not selling anything.

AJ 44:22

How do you do that? How does it work?

Wonder As A Soil Health Signal

Jon 44:25

Hell fine, though. I know that every year I start at $0 and I have to raise $4 million. And by December 31st, I give it all away. Um, it's a this is a weird business model. And again, if somebody had asked me as a younger John, hey, this is what I'm planning on doing, I'm like, that's impossible. And for whatever reason, it continues to happen. We end up running this program off of donations primarily, um, philanthropic, but also you know, small-scale donations. And um, so yeah, it's a bit like this crowdfunding model, um, a little hyped up, but uh still this concept of crowdfunding, and and when we get a sponsor, they're they don't get to choose which farm they're sponsoring, but we say every farm cost me $8,000 to measure, and so we like to work in increments of $8,000. So that I mean I hear you about the the so-called um lack of wisdom in in working a model like this, but it is interesting, isn't it, when you I mean, I see it very often, very often to not be tried about this, that it is by virtue of going for the big one, the big dream, that that can and does happen. Yeah, I guess it stirs the soul enough in people. Yeah. It was a good idea, it needed to happen. I you know, I mean, we're who needed to do it? I don't know, nobody else was. Yeah. And you know, Edysis's staff, we ain't the smartest, we ain't the prettiest, uh, sure as hell ain't the richest, but for whatever reason, Ecdicus attracts people that want to do something. They don't want to just be another pamphleteer, they want to get their hands dirty, they want to help. Um, because they've spent their entire lives hearing bad news.

AJ 46:43

Yeah, well that's it. I'm curious, Jon. Does this the traits we've talked about in you do you map them back on your parents or other ancestors you know of your upbringing? Like what explains you?

Jon 46:59

Cat. I uh I boy, I don't know if anybody wants to try to. Um I I asked at field day this year, because it was our 10th anniversary. We had probably one of my favorite field days, the best speakers we've ever had. Um, they're old friends. And uh and I got up and kind of shared the story of of where we've come and you know, a little bit of where we're going. But uh I started it by asking the audience, I'm like, what is it? Why is it that Ikdysis exists? How is this possible? How did this happen? What's the secret sauce? So that I could tell somebody else, okay, add a little of this and you're

Funding Free Measurement For Farmers

Jon 47:49

good to go. Give it a try, you know. And uh I think I I got a few answers back over the night, uh, but the one that stuck with me was from one of my really close farmer friends out in California. Her name is Rosie Burroughs. Uh, she'd be a great guest, by the way, on your podcast.

AJ 48:10

Noted.

Jon 48:11

Uh almond grower, biggest regenerative almond producer in the uh in the country, maybe the world. Um, anyways, uh Rosie said uh it's heart, right? That's what that's the secret sauce is is heart. And um, and there was a lot of heart at that field day and with our staff and with this farm. And I don't know. I can't take too much credit for it, that's for sure. I I've screwed up just about as much as anybody I can more than anybody else that I know of, and uh and for some reason I'm still here and not just still here. I'm like, I was a damn corpse, right? And somebody something in the universe decided we gotta stir the pot again, give Lundgren the paddles, and get him back in the ring, and uh, and here I am, you know, swinging my arms around, I guess. And uh I'm I'm back in in the White House? Yes. What on earth advising global leaders in how to from a farm in the middle of nowhere, South Dakota? I'm like, what is this? Indeed. Crazy.

AJ 49:47

So as you left the White House, speaking of which, you had a very interesting exchange with Zippy Duval, the farmers bureau head. That ended with the possibility of catching up afterwards. Yeah. Did you hear from him?

Jon 50:03

No.

Australia’s Water And Chemical Wake-Up

Jon 50:07

Not yet. Not yet. It'll come. It's got to. Right.

AJ 50:13

That was almost the most promising bit out of the whole story, I reckon. At least to date. Yeah. That that could be bridged. I I think of it often here too, the same body, the National Farmers Federation here. They did a diabolical report. I mean, a great report on the diabolical situation of farmer health a few years ago. And yet the divide remains.

Jon 50:34

It's it's gotta happen. I mean, yeah. I was at Wilmot Field Day. Were you there?

AJ 50:40

No, I I still haven't been there, funnily enough.

Jon 50:42

Oh, geez, that's a good one. Anyways, um, and uh one of the gals that had uh that got some award or grant or something, um, basically was uh creating a support network for for women on farms. Um which is uh I mean the mental health issues when you're completely isolated like this, that's huge. And then surrounded by or immersed in agrochemicals that are neurotoxins that are disrupting your mental health even further. I mean, these are the the the links between clinical depression and agrochemical use is something else. Anyways, yeah, no, Australia's facing the same stuff we are. Can you drink the water?

AJ 51:28

Well, that's that's what the suspect thing is through the riverina, MND Alley, um, that it's the water. And of course, that that that's in a context of other rivers running dry and mass fish kills, and like it's just you know your nitrates and things in the in well water and stuff are they algal blooms, yeah. Even in the ocean now, algal blooms just off the charts, killing the kangaroos, like when they then just from the air airborne nature of it afterwards, it's

Jon 51:58

are you kidding? I thought kangaroos couldn't be killed.

AJ 52:01

Yeah. By too many trucks, probably has always been true. But but also now off airborne particles off evaporating water from the ocean. What I'm talking in South Australia. That news I think came out uh last year and very disturbing because they're they're hopping around like deranged, like they can't stand up before they die. Yeah, I don't even want to go further. So you got you have got this plethora of symptoms around the water, yeah. And and again, you haven't yeah, it it's starting to emerge in the public consciousness. It's just but we sit in very similar terrain in a sense to you. Yeah, it is similar. So you're coming in October. What's gonna happen?

Australia Rollout And How To Join

Jon 52:42

Um, we're bringing together a group of farmers. I'm bringing staff from Ecdysis. Uh, this is through Soils for Life, at least the first cluster, and we're discussing what that might look like going forward. Um bringing a group of maybe 20 to 25 farmers and testing this out. Okay, so we got to benchmark some of the grower-generated data uh in Australia so that we can kind of calibrate that, and then that might uh help to unlock the rest of the thousand farms data uh to help contextualize what farmers are measuring there. Um and then the hope is that over the next few years we amplify that up to hundreds and hundreds of farms across Australia using harmonized methodology and and starting to try new things and feeling safe enough to do that and knowing that they're not alone.

AJ 53:35

Right. So that's through that's connected with Soils for Life for now. Is that is this just a to any people in Australia listening, it it's just a standby, there'll be more news, or or there is there an invitation to reach out?

Jon 53:48

Uh register your farm. Oh yeah. No, we've had dozens and dozens of farms across the country register to be a part of the study. And unless we have people do that, and I could give you the link for that if you want to put it in the podcast or something. Great. Um yeah, if and so yeah, if the if we don't know who you are and what you're growing, then we can't visit. So it takes two minutes, and then that gives us a uh sort of a splay of the farm options and farming systems. It's nice when we can uh kind of hunker down on a system or two, you know, like maybe it's dairy pasture or or or grain production or orchards or vineyards or something like that.

AJ 54:39

But would you span the country or too early?

Jon 54:43

Uh well we're spanning the entire planet.

AJ 54:46

Well, I guess not too early. I'm conscious that Australia is big, but of course, as is the states, and yeah, to say nothing of the world.

Jon 54:53

Uh yeah, yeah, yeah. No, Australia is very large. You're right. Uh so but yeah, the we're not doing this alone. Okay. We're we're hoping that there's going to be a lot of collaboration, and we've had quite a few really great um collaboration uh opportunities in Australia and elsewhere. So this will be we're hoping that we can really launch this one. And um, if I mean what we bring to the table is extremely efficient and extremely effective ecosystem monitoring tools, as well as heart. Yeah, as well as heart.

AJ 55:30

And and then connections.

Jon 55:31

Yeah, that's it. That's what this is all about. This is about relationships with your family, community, and and the natural world.

AJ 55:39

Yeah.

Jon 55:40

Ultimately, that's what regen does.

AJ 55:43

It's fascinating timing too, because there's a a station, you know, a ranch, station in in the far northwest of West Australia, Kachana Station, that's a prominent story here in Australia that is attracting research attention from around the world currently as well. And yeah, I it there'll be I think there'll be fascinating links there, and and I know that's true in other places.

Jon 56:05

You own this ranch? You you have this.

AJ 56:07

No, not mine. It's it's uh size of Singapore. Well beyond well beyond what even they can do their regenerative stuff on. There's so much potential there, but the their model area is extraordinary and in in a region that is otherwise desertifying.

Jon 56:24

Really?

AJ 56:24

And they're doing it uh not just with their livestock, but with harnessing the behavior of formerly feral donkeys. So still wild. Yeah. But of course they're designated pests, so they're they're in a process now of trying to say, hang on, hang on, don't shoot 'em, don't shoot them. We're we're we've culled the ones that don't herd up. We've got a herd happening in the ranges where the cattle can't go. We don't need to use fire as a result, it doesn't burn from wildfire as a result. We can re-green it and so forth, and the water benefits, etc., etc., from that. But there's um there's a log jam there without the without the data.

Jon 57:02

Yeah, right on. Well, there's yep. We can help. Yeah.

AJ 57:07

And that's true. I even had uh the Haggerty family here. I don't know if you've ever come across them.

Jon 57:12

I've heard of them.

AJ 57:13

Yeah, so they're they were West Australians of the year last year, even a sign of the change of the times, but they still say, they said it to me the other day, and I thought I told them I was speaking to you today, that that data is the logjam. Like all the evidence they see, it's exactly what you're saying.

Jon 57:29

You you've gotta have it. You gotta have it, but that isn't necessarily what's going to ultimately drive change. You can't do it without it, but it's gonna have to be more. It's it's it's necessary but not sufficient. Um, and so yeah, that's yeah, that's well said that's where those relationships and trust come in again.

AJ 57:52

Yeah, that's that's really well said. Because right now I see a lot of places very

Indigenous Learning And Women Leading Regen

AJ 57:57

strong on the latter, on the ultimate requirement. But they're they're missing, they are missing.

Jon 58:02

Yeah, you're not gonna convince anybody. It's all just yeah, fairies and leprechauns at that point, right?

AJ 58:08

Yeah, that's very interesting. What about tribal connections in the States with Thousand Farms? Are they there too?

Jon 58:14

Yeah, that's been uh real emphasis for us is trying to figure out underrepresented groups and how to how to uh serve them as well as learn from them. Um one of the things that's been very interesting is uh that certainly in the US, I think the regenerative movement, you don't see many of them on the stage, but it's being driven by women. Um and that uh so we find there's a disproportionate number of women that are owners operators on regenerative farms versus conventional. And we also find that the regenerative people um tend to listen to their wives um a lot more. And uh I can tell you on my own farm that uh I have had to learn a lot from Christina, um, and she has been an extremely important component of me understanding, yeah. I was uh I'm like hyper efficient, right? I got a lot of shit I gotta do, right? And so I'm like, all right, get the I can get chores done 30 minutes flat, right? Those animals have food and water, and they're alive. Boom, I'm busy. And uh she goes out and does chores, and four hours later, I'm like, what have you been doing out there? And she's like, I'm I'm watching the animals eat. I'm like, what on earth? Why are you wasting your time? And but she knew every damn sheep has a name, and every pig has a name, and and they have purpose and they're important, and we have the best lambing rate that the farm has ever experienced, and it's because of that of those other currencies that I did not pay enough attention to.

AJ 1:00:20

I was thinking when you said um the word learn before, what's come to you on that front? That is profound and wonderful.

Jon 1:00:28

Yeah, wish I had been a lot smarter as a young younger guy. That's the shit.

AJ 1:00:32

Ah, Jon, you and me both, mate. Better late than never, as they say. Yeah, a mutual friend of ours, Nicole Masters. We happened to be talking the other day. Yeah, we were talking the other day, and I said, What do you want to know? What should I ask him?

Jon 1:00:47

And what did she tell you? I am not no, I'm out.

AJ 1:00:55

Uh she had one for you.

Jon 1:00:59

Yeah, okay. Uh all right. What do you get?

Stop Chasing One Chemical

AJ 1:01:02

I want to know what he makes of Dr. Don Huber's thoughts on glyphosate.

Jon 1:01:08

Um yeah, glyphosate is is all of the it's one. I mean, we all want a poster child, right? We want that thing that we can all attack. The pesticide community or the pesticide companies, that's what they want more than anything, all right? Because then we can completely exhaust ourselves chasing that one that one windmill. And they've got 10 other ones that are all lined up, and they're like, we've done the numbers. I mean, number one, we can kill this many people with this product and we'll still make money even after the lawsuits, right? Uh, number two is um, you know, we by the time they're done with this one, we'll have sold so much other product, they don't even and these ones are even worse.

AJ 1:02:01

Well, paraquat, for example.

Jon 1:02:02

Paraquat, yeah, dicamba 24D. Uh, these things are yeah, it's shit awful what these things are. Yeah, yeah. And they're hurting us, they're hurting so many people, and they're not there's no accountability with it. Um but we can chase individual and uh uh uh symptoms so many times and and we'll exhaust ourselves. Let's change the system. Let's let's fundamentally show farmers that you don't need herbicides. And then you the the these companies they don't have an answer for that.

AJ 1:02:45

Yeah, I agree with you, and it's another way of saying too, I think, I'm higher. It's yeah, yeah. Because you have to, and you know, I've heard this before too. You go better when you take paradoxically, when you take on more, but because it's all connected. If you just go to the heart of the matter, yeah, yeah. You know, you and I were both at the Regenerate conference when Trump won the 24 election. You were presenting.

Jon 1:03:15

Oh, really? You were at that one? That was in Denver, right? In Denver, yeah, in the snow. Boy, I blew in and blew out. There was a blizzard that time. Yeah, right. Yeah, exactly. I didn't get to talk to anybody. That sucked.

AJ 1:03:27

Yeah, but it's good to see you present nonetheless. And but wasn't there oh you perhaps you didn't sense there was such an interesting vibe in that conference.

Jon 1:03:36

Yeah, I did, I got that.

AJ 1:03:37

That election landed like a brick. Yeah. So I ended up producing a podcast. I just did sort of vox pops as we call it. I don't think you say that. Just a half a dozen people, different sorts of folks I'd met around and sort of five, ten minutes each put a podcast together on it. And I ended up titling it The Vibe I Got From It, which was something along the lines of a force for mending, that regenerative ag was a force for mending. Yeah. You know, you you had those two presidential encounters almost emblematic of this. Do you see this? You you did mention that in you know industrial farmers had had started to open up in the wake of that executive order. You were fielding more inquiries. Are you do you still believe, are you experiencing it as a force for mending?

Jon 1:04:27

Uh yeah,

Regen As A Force For Mending

Jon 1:04:29

absolutely. It's the first hope people have had in a long time. And uh yeah, I think it's something that we can get behind. A lot of farmers from a lot of different diverse places in in their lives and in where they live and everything, they can get behind this. Um, we've got to be careful not to demonize them, uh, people that aren't doing it, so that they have the opportunity to change. Yeah, this is this is grassroots, though. I mean, yeah, we can we can talk about you know top-down approaches and policies that are gonna make a difference and all of this other stuff, but the reality is that governments follow, they don't lead. Right. And right now the farmers are way leading, certainly the scientific community and the policy community. But we're also seeing this weird thing, this maha thing in the US, where their make America Healthy thing. People are tired of being sick, right? And they're seeing their food as as more and more often as one of the solutions for that. So I don't I don't agree with any politician entirely, and I sure as hell don't agree with a lot of the crap that's coming out of this administration, but I do align with with HHS and their And their regenerative ag initiatives. And so I can get on board with that. And uh let's find the common ground, and this that's what this is.

Music Memories And Closing Thanks

AJ 1:06:12

All right, my friend. To take us out, what music has been significant to you in the in your life?

Jon 1:06:18

Um so my favorite concert I've ever been to. It was on a farm in Kansas, and there was a gentleman, he was a music teacher at the local school. Uh huh. And he had four children. And there was this warm firelight, and there was about maybe 20, 25 of us all sitting in this really woodsy cabin like thing. And Christina was close, and uh and it and they just started belting out these John Denver tunes. And it was probably the most magical musical experience that I'll never ever forget. Um yeah, there was a lot of heart there, wasn't there?

AJ 1:07:12

Oh, I hear. That's beautiful. You know, it reminds me there's a new festival in Australia called Grounded, sort of inspired by Ground Swell in the UK. You know Matt?

Jon 1:07:22

Matt, Matt just uh and I talked yeah earlier this week. He wants me to come down. Yes. Glad to hear. Is it good?

AJ 1:07:30

Oh well, this is where I was going. So the last grounded, which was in the Otways of Victoria, was in April. And it was it was last stop on my latest bit of a tour over there. And it was so good. I ended up at the in the night, in the evening, when they had some music going on stage, but it's very similar vibe, even though there's some you know more people, you know, uh food around, couple of fires in this instance, and a and a little stage in the bush, you know, at the back of this incredible regenerative farm, agroforestry farm. So, you know, there's this forest with there. Yeah, it's just cool. It's very cool. And there was a moment, the moon was blazing, it was still clear, and um I've just been in this great company. There's a beautiful tune in the distance, and I just look up through the canopy to the moon with the low din of music and voices and crackling fire. And I don't think I've actually told Matthew this, but peak, peak moment, so I hear those the moments that just dawn on you like that.

Jon 1:08:39

Oh yeah. Yeah, you can't forget it. It's good, uh it's good. That's what it's about, man. That's what it's all about.

AJ 1:08:48

Well, my friend, thanks a lot, mate. It's been I'm so grateful to you going into your night with me after a big day fixing fences and whatever. Thanks a lot.

Jon 1:08:57

Yeah, my pleasure. I I hope we we meet in person one day and spread the word.

AJ 1:09:03

That was Dr. Jonathan Lundgren from Blue Dasher Farm and Ecdysis Foundation. All links in the show notes, including an update on the situation at Kachana Station, as an 11th hour bid is launched to save the donkeys. I know many of you have been keenly following this story, thanks to everyone who has responded with their support in recent days. That invitation through those links is still open. If you'd like to let me know what you think about today's episode, send a voicemail or text via the show notes too. And if you're enjoying the podcast, I hope you'll consider becoming a paid subscriber on Patreon or Substack. This episode was only possible with your support, so thanks very much to Ben Symons, Caitlin Tacey, EK and Rob Pekin, Grace Rose-Miller, 100 Monkeys for Hope, you know who you are, and Caz for being with me on Patreon since it was launched five years ago. I count you all as friends now, and I'm so grateful for it. And thank you all in turn for sharing, rating, and reviewing the podcast. That all helps too. The music you're hearing is Regeneration by Amelia Barden, and at the top, Sourced from Artlist, was Open Wide by Russo, featuring Roy Doton. My name's Anthony James. Thanks for listening.