David Bronner: A Journey of Purpose with Dr. Bronner's Cosmic Engagement Officer

I had the pleasure of sitting down with David Bronner, the Cosmic Engagement Officer of the famed Dr Bronner’s, whose life story is as rich and foamy as the company's iconic soap.

Since David became CEO of the top-selling brand of natural soaps, body care and food products in 1998, the company has grown from $4 million in revenue to well over $100 million, and all while continuing to change so much about the systems and stories we live by. In recent times, they’ve co-founded Regenerative Organic Certification, setting a whole new standard of global supply chain transformation. And here today David announces a new upcoming initiative called the Purpose Pledge, which follows on from last week’s conversation on regenerative finance with Esther Park uncannily well.

But what really had me wondering, as I approached Bronner’s Californian HQ, was how David feels about the iconic All-One company ethos and legacy, 76 years in, given the state of the world today. Having emerged from the tragedy of the Holocaust at the hands of David’s inspired grandfather Emanuel, and knowing that amongst the company’s trailblazing regenerative supply chains are communities in both Palestine and Israel, this was a profound opener to our conversation.

We go on to talk about their deep involvement in plant medicine and the psychedelics resurgence, and how it relates to David’s personal healing – and even how he returned to work at the company. Then there’s the capping of executive pay and giving to others all profits they don’t need, how to grapple with ‘regen washing’, David’s ‘big journey’ as a vegan now advocating for regenerative agriculture, and finally, the breaking news.

As always, head here for chapter markers if you’d like to see an overview or navigate the conversation that way. You can find a transcript there too (also available on Apple and some other apps), which is AI generated and imperfect, but hopefully provides greater access for those who need or like to read.

Recorded on 16 May 2024.

Title slide: AJ & David, after the yarn (pic: Olivia Cheng).

See more photos on the episode web page, and to see more from behind the scenes, become a member via the Patreon page.

With thanks to Mel from Dr Bronner’s Australia, and everyone at Bronner’s HQ.

Music:
Green Shoots, by The Nomadics.

Regeneration, by Amelia Barden, from Regenerating Australia.

The RegenNarration playlist, music chosen by guests (thanks to Josie Symons).

Transcript

David: 0:00

We're actually in the process - I guess maybe it would be the first public [announcement] really talking about it - but we're helping develop what we're calling the Purpose Pledge. A nd it's basically taking some 10 core criteria that really distinguish what we consider to be a real mission, ethical business and really getting at the heart of your operations, like your supply chain integrity, e co-social certification of your supply chain, where most of your impact is. You know, as cool as what we do here in our headquarters and our factory.

David: 0:32

This is like 5% of our impact. I mean, it's all the farmers and workers in our supply chain. You know, what's our sourcing impact? That's really just 10 key criteria. And, yeah, you know there's some really good businesses out there and we want to just really kind of create a home for the Patagonias and Bronner's of the world and you know, like just really dedicated through and through and have that mission, integrity and independence. And then create a financing, like an investment mechanism that will invest in these startups and in these companies and will be patient and isn't these kind of like pseudo impact.

AJ: 1:33

G'day. My name's Anthony James and this is The RegenNarration featuring the stories that are changing the story, ad-free, freely available and entirely listener-supported. So thanks a lot, Jonathan Forrest, for your very generous subscription this week, and to Oliver Barnes, thanks for your three years of invaluable support and recent corro apologising for suspending your membership as you let go of an income for a while to embark on the next phase of your journey. No apologies required. It's everything this podcast is about. Travel well and keep in touch. And if you're also finding value in all this, please consider joining folks like Jonathan and Oliver, part of a great community of supporting listeners, for as little as $3 a month or whatever amount you can and want to contribute. You get exclusive access to behind the scenes stuff from me, additional news and tips and more. Just head to the website via the show notes regennarration. com/ support and thanks again.

David: 2:37

David Bronner, Cosmic Engagement Officer at Dr. Bronner's bam!

AJ: 2:41

There's almost no one I'd rather speak with right now than David Bronner, the lively and fascinating CEO of the famed Dr Bronner's, the top-selling brand of natural soaps, body care and food products. Since David became CEO in 1998, the company has grown from $4 million in revenue to well over $100 million, and all while continuing to change so much about the systems and stories we live by. In recent times they've co-founded Regenerative Organic Certification, setting a whole new standard of global supply chain transformation. And here today David announces a new upcoming initiative called the Purpose Pledge, which follows on from last week's conversation on regenerative finance with Esther Park, uncannily well. But what really had me wondering as I approached Bronner's HQ in Vista, California, was how David feels about the iconic All-One company ethos and legacy 76 years in,

AJ: 3:45

given the state of the world today. Having emerged from the tragedy of the Holocaust, at the hands of David's inspired grandfather Emmanuel, and knowing that amongst the company's trailblazing regenerative supply chains are communities in both Palestine and Israel, this was a profound opener to our conversation. We go on to talk about their deep involvement in plant medicine and the psychedelics resurgence and how it relates to David's personal healing, and even how he returned to work at the company. Then there's the capping of executive pay and giving to others all profits they don't need, how to grapple with 'regen washing', David's 'big journey' as a vegan now advocating for regenerative agriculture, and finally, the breaking news. David was incredibly open and generous here. What a cherished conversation this was. You know, David, I'm really grateful for you having us here.

AJ: 4:43

Thanks a lot. As I was thinking about it coming in, I was thinking you're almost the person I most want to talk to right now. Knowing what I do about the Bronner's story and the state of the world it came out of. A nd what we're seeing in the state of the world right now. I wonder how you feel about the legacy so far. After what is it 75 years or something? DB: Yeah. AJ: In the context of the world today. How are you feeling about that?

David: 5:12

Yeah, you know, in two weeks we're actually going back to Germany. We've purchased our ancestral home in Laupheim Really, yeah, so where my great-great-grandfather, dr Browner's grandfather, first began manufacturing soap in the basement of his home in the Jewish quarter of Laupheim, a small southern German town, and it's going to be a home for autistic adults that a Catholic charity runs who are already living there, and then also a museum to our soap-making history. And, as you were alluding to my, you know my granddad's parents, though. So the next generation built, uh, his, his dad and two uncles built a much bigger factory in halbron, another town in southern germany. We were supplying a lot of the liquid soaps and public washrooms and on the zeppelins and, um, my granddad came over in 29, uh, at the age of 21, not so much because of hitler, but more just to forge his own path in life, and became a consultant here to the us soap industry.

David: 6:16

Um, with the rise of hitler, he became increasingly desperate to get his family out. His two sisters got out, um, but his parents, like a lot of bourgeois Jews, stayed until it was too late. The factory was aronized, they were deported and killed, and the Holocaust was a dark inspiration for his passion to unite the human race across ethnic and religious divides. You know the labels his attempt to show the one true religion of love at the heart of all. The faith traditions at their best are pointing at this transcendent source in unity and we're all brothers and sisters and siblings.

David: 6:50

And if we don't realize that in a nuclear-armed world we're going to all perish. And, yeah, fast forward. We source all of our major raw materials come from regenerative, organic projects and farming communities around the world where we pay a good price so they can take care of their people and land and communities in a really good way and farm in nature's image, without a whole bunch of synthetic inputs, and not poison the world while we produce what we need and our olive oil is a really awesome story and tragic also, but 90% of our olive oil comes from the Palestinian side on the West Bank and we work with Canaan Fair Trade and really amazing project and for the past almost 20 years I've been sourcing the majority of our olive oil from Palestinian farmers. And then the balance the 10% balance comes from the Israeli side, half from a Jewish family farm and half from a Christian-Palestinian project on the Israeli side. So we have Muslim, jewish, christian olive oil in our soaps. You know where they're resonating to the all-one message. We're supporting a lot of different peace groups in the area and relief orgs on the Palestinian side, like Combatants for Peace or former combatants on either side that have come together. Parents Circle have lost parents who have lost children on either side who have come together and really trying to empower the forces of peace on either side.

David: 8:21

And it's a really hard, long, complex conflict. We are really gratified to see, you know, new York Times I just saw they published the first of three really documenting the settler violence on the Israeli side and the whole settler movement. That's basically this you know, jewish terrorism and fascism. That's the core shadow dynamic on the Israeli side. You know, obviously everyone knows about Hamas and the core shadow side on the Palestinian side. But you know there's been, let's say, not such awareness of the core shadow dynamic on the Israeli side and it's, you know, in the midst of all this horrible tragedy. It is really good to see this mega shift happening in the American mainstream narrative and people really understanding how this Israeli shadow is equally contributing this hate, this terrorism, this violence on the Israeli side. It has really contributed to the ongoing cycles of violence. So hopefully, out of all this we'll see the emergence of a viable Palestinian state and peace between these two great peoples and reining in the violent segments on either side. Israeli society are on steroids right now that you know Netanyahu and all that.

David: 9:37

You know that. You know, grabbed the wheel, it's a. You know. So here we are. You know, like. You know our family was a victim of the Nazi regime of terror and you know it's just so sad to see. You know people have suffered so much. You know that those same fascist forces emerge and you know this is, you know, greater israel. You know god gave it to us. Palestinians need to get out of here. You know it's just like, oh my gosh, you know so, but we're, um, yeah, optimistic. You know, like, how do you say martin luther king? You know the arc of history is long but bends towards justice. So so we're just so you just kind of keep doing what we're doing and everyone else who's fighting for peace, love, understanding, justice, that this, hopefully, will prevail there and everywhere. You know, before this generation, it would be great to see. Yeah, wonderful.

AJ: 10:42

Yeah, it's so interesting to hear you feel that shift in narrative in the States, so there's a source of optimism there and heading into an election all the more as you're pointing out. I wonder equally for you, knowing how close you feel to that legacy and buying the ancestral home, that feels like an amazing moment in time. And then I know how much you've been involved in the plant medicine oh, just to put that tag on it, you know like. But right from the hemp days and winning that extraordinary legal case against the federal agency about 20 years ago now, through to the psychedelics resurgence and your passion in that, and then knowing what we know about epigenetics now, what we're learning through science more and more about this stuff, have you felt that trauma in you and, I guess, have you felt a healing of that in some ways through your life? Has that been important or has it?

David: 11:39

happened upon you in ways you've recognized. Yeah, you know, I mean, obviously it's been a real factor. My granddad, you know, was, you know, first generation over here and that that holocaust trauma, you know, ricocheting down to generations and you know, and obviously we got colonialism and slavery and you know lots of things coming down to generations and the trauma and the collective trauma and things not yet made right. But yeah, with the advent of medicine, I mean I've experienced deep healing myself with psychedelic medicines and really opened me up to understand what my grandma was talking about in the first place. Really, that there is, yeah, that there is a love and light at the heart of existence in the midst of all this suffering and absurdity, and that this love is emerging In our deepest essence. We are all one and now we just got to make that the reality in our external world. We know it's true inwardly, but it's clearly not yet the case outwardly and it's up to us to make it that way and make a heaven on earth. You know, stop this oppression of, you know, one people over another and just all the historical injustices and traumas. Yeah, I mean that's. I mean these medicines are really powerful, can really get deep at. You know all kinds of trauma. You know war, trauma, sexual violence, but also this generational trauma that all of us carry to some extent and can really get in there.

David: 13:11

We've sponsored. So, as you know, we helped legalize industrial hemp, but that was always ending the drug war and integrating psychedelic medicines and cannabis was always the end game, and there's been really cool efforts in, for example, israel and Palestine to bring people together and drink ayahuasca together and heal together and hear each other and feel each other. Yeah, and we're actually. So MAPS is here. I'm on the board of MAPS here in the States, so Multidisciplinary Association of Psychedelic Studies, founded by Rick Doblin, and one of our major historical projects has been bringing MDMA through FDA approval process for treatment-resistant PTSD and that's going to be approved here in the next few months and that's going to be a watershed moment and actually we've. So you may know that we cap our executive compensation at five times our lowest paid position and dedicate all profits we don't need to the causes and charities we believe in, and that last year we crossed 100 million in total over the last 20 years of last year and then this year we're really putting a lot of attention on helping.

David: 14:27

You know different organizations engaged on either side in israel and palestine, and maps israel, on his really side, actually has gotten government approval to do group mdma therapy for survivors of the hamas attacks both the kibbutz and the and the nova festival interesting and um and then, as soon as is possible, also help the on the palestinian side.

David: 14:50

That's obviously more difficult in the moment. Um, and you know, just direct humanitarian relief orgs is more important at the moment, but, you know, as soon as viable um maps israel is very full of a lot of awesome peacenik Israelis who very much believe in a peaceful, two-state, harmonious future and want to bring this healing to all sides. Yeah, they're there. They are there, yeah, and just really open us up, you know, and we can heal ourselves and open our hearts and minds to each other and just become more empathic and less judgmental. You know, and I feel like as a global citizenry, as these plant medicines are moving, all of them are moving, you know, hopefully that's going to be a big part of the equation, yeah, of uh, you know, helping us uh confront these massive environmental and social crises we're facing yeah, here's to that.

AJ: 15:42

You came on board as the nominal CEO, the Cosmic Engagement Officer, in 98, right, so you're about 24, 25 at the time.

David: 15:54

Yeah, just turned 25, yeah.

AJ: 15:56

I wondered then did you not necessarily think you'd be doing this at one stage in life, and what did you get up to?

David: 16:06

at one stage in life. And what did you get up to? Yeah, well, I mean, I grew up working with my dad. So I grew up in a glendale suburb of la and my dad oversaw the soap production from my granddad. But had stayed up in la when my granddad moved down to san diego, north county, san diego escondido town, a couple towns away, uh, to set up shop. Um, my dad and granite didn't have the best uh relationship. Um, you know my granite, you know his passion was to save the world and wasn't the best father. Um, but, uh, my dad became head of operations at this chemical specialty manufacturer and developed firefighting foam for structure and forest fires saw.

AJ: 16:43

Saw the truck out the front.

David: 16:44

Amazing.

AJ: 16:45

I didn't know that.

David: 16:46

Yeah, and then a version for Hollywood.

AJ: 16:48

It was a fake snow, so me and my brother grew up blasting foam on all sorts of commercial sets and movies and stuff which I believe you did to your PA out the front too on her induction, I'm told.

David: 17:00

Yeah, I mean. And so fast forward to today. We, you know, put my granddad's soap through my dad's firefighting foam technology and blast foam on the world and it's super ecstatic, super fun. You know we'll do like a mud run. You know a 5K obstacle course with all this mud and then we set up at the end and blast everyone clean. Yeah, it's super fun. So I grew up doing that. You know I kind of was. You know I hung on my granddad a bit but did stimulate him to understand him. It wasn't like too much on my radar. I went to Harvard and was mostly playing football and then rugby and not that academically inclined but was a biology major.

David: 17:43

Yeah, so you had a passion for that, for life, I suppose yeah, well, and I mean someone would see, I mean I I was raised christian but I said the jewish shema, the central hebrew prayer, jewish prayer, uh, in hebrew and english. But you know, kind of gave up my faith in when I was 13. But then in college, you know, I was kind of getting patient with this. Like you know, kind in college, you know I was kind of getting impatient with this. Like you know, kind of materialistic, you know, human consciousness is just a phenomenon, a physical and evolutionary process and nothing too big a deal.

David: 18:14

And postmodern relativity, you know, like you know, everything is relative and I was like well, you know, I mean we're all born, we all die, we all laugh, we all cry. I mean there's kind of more to this story. And in that context, well, also my roommates were really awesome and were smoking cannabis all the time and I was drug tested under the NCAA football reg. So I was just getting drunk at the bars but at a certain point sat down with my roommates and I was like, oh my gosh, this is like way better. This is so awesome, you know. And like you know, music, laughter friends I was like you know, wait a minute. Like how can this be illegal? You know, that's so obviously so much better than alcohol and alcohol which I'm not in favor of prohibition but clearly has way more negative consequences. And that was like my first real awakening on the drug war.

David: 19:08

Um, then I had a mushroom chocolate in my junior year and that was a big one. You remember looking down at my arm and thinking you know what does it mean? At a quantum level, I'm not different from the world. It's just a one smooth energy and one containment. Can you continuum of energy? And then, looking at at the world, realizing when I eat and poo, the world's pouring through me like a river and everything I see out there is living but is going to be dead shortly and then reborn and I'm part of this much bigger living, dying reality process than me over here, alive and the world over there, dead. It's all one. You know, all my carbon my body's coming from the air through photosynthesis, making the roots, shoots and leaves, and the carbohydrates and, you know, eating the plants and animals eat the plants and you know it's all this like one living, miraculous, interflowing reality process.

David: 20:00

So I was, you know the beginning, but it wasn't until after college and one thing I knew graduating college was I was going to not work for my family. You know. I wondered, yeah, yeah, I just wanted to do my own thing and I wasn't sure what that was going to be exactly, but went to, had a Euro pass, ended up in Amsterdam and it was so awesome, and just ended up living in the squad scene there for a couple months. Um actually moved there. Um was going to be a cannabis entrepreneur, had a huge, huge psychedelic experience there like really big, died five times in the love and light at the heart of existence.

David: 20:38

Um was this in the one experience, or one it was. It was actually two, but the second was the real big one and yeah, I was at a crisis point in my then relationship and really saw I was in a gay trans club and my ex-wife, or my then-girlfriend, who's called my wife, and we divorced seven years ago but she's amazing and she actually heads up our family foundation. Still, chris Lindbronner has an amazing project, the Migrant Justice Initiative. They focus on immigration and migrant rights and stuff. But in that context at that point I really saw my own toxic, insecure, masculine self assaulting her in all these subtle ways in the medicine space and and you know, better you die than be in the way of her light and died and was embracing the infinite love and light and just, you know, into the right yeah and then, um, yeah, realized my granddad was totally right, like, wow, all the faith traditions at their best are pointing at this.

David: 21:46

And then, man, I was like wait a minute, god. Like okay, how does that love work? You know, we're dancing this club. And now there's like rape and murder and all the worst things, and I saw jesus kind of stepping in, not trying to explain it, not complaining about it, just stepping in. I'm like, wow, that's, I want to be like that. That's what we're here to do, here to serve and get down and make the world a better place. And you know, that's how we're going to end this oppression and all that horribleness. And and, uh, yeah, it was, it was, it was a massive experience, but it wasn't a direct line from there to brawners. I was gonna, uh, I could become a cannabis entrepreneur in Amsterdam and whatever. But yeah, that for various reasons didn't quite work out Became a mental health counselor, as my girlfriend at the time, chris, who you know, basically we at that point knew we were going to get married she finished up school, we got pregnant with our kid, maya, and somewhere in there I know I was a mental health counselor to paranoid, schizophrenic populations for a couple years, which I was really good at, but Reagan had gutted the mental health.

David: 22:59

Half the staffing hours were temp hours from people like me who had no relevant training, you know. But actually I had some real good experience via psychedelics that really show up and but anyways, in this time I was journaling and reading a lot and read a book called natural capitalism by this guy, paul hawkin, we've just been with paul.

AJ: 23:19

Wow, that was pivotal for you too.

David: 23:21

oh yeah, man. So that was like I was like whoa, you know, really like waking up, wow, engine, uh, business can really be an engine for social and ecological progress and not just this regressive force fighting every single environmental regulation or labor regulation, but actually can be a leader and set a model of how you can do this responsibly. And you know, and then just really started appreciate like whoa, what an incredible company my gran had, you know, made, and I just really started to appreciate like wow, what an incredible company my granddad, you know made, and my dad and mom and uncle were stewarding and running at the time. And so, yeah, and right around then Maya was born and I think shortly before I came back and let my granddad know I understood him, was going to dedicate my life to his passion, and let my dad know I was interested in coming in, you got to tell your granddad that yeah wow yeah, how was that for him?

David: 24:09

I think it was, he was. You know he was. It was late stage to parkinson's by then, but he was, he was stoked, he was just smiling. I was combing his hair. Wow man, yeah and your dad.

AJ: 24:19

How did he feel?

David: 24:21

oh, he was great, he was stoked too. He yeah, you know he didn't want to, you know force me and fortunately so. Maya was actually born on the same day. Dr Browner died March 7th 97. And then my dad was diagnosed with stage four lung cancer like a month later and given six months. But fortunately I'd already made that decision to come back. So we moved back, had an incredible year with my dad. He lived to marry my sister to my brother-in-law, michael Milam, who's our COO, and my sister, lisa Bronner. Milam has got a really awesome blog and she's super great and my dad lived to marry them in a super beautiful ceremony and, you know, teaching me the ropes of life and business, and then died shortly after a few days after they got married.

David: 25:20

And yeah, just but shortly before he died he oversaw I mean it was a long process, but I would say a six-month process to donate 1,000 acres of land in East County, san Diego, to the Boys and Girls Club and all our advisors were telling us like you got to just sell that land and pay down these estate taxes that you know my granddad didn't do the best job with his estate planning, but my dad and mom were like you know, look, we've analyzed it, we can do this, we can afford to give, give this and pay down the taxes.

David: 25:45

And it was kind of a full circle because my dad was helped immensely by different youth programs of his day and there's these unknown mentors that really helped shape him into the man he became. And so it was like this full circle gift and really set the example for me and my brother, company president Mike Browner, about what kind of company we're going to run. Basically, if we don't need it for the company, if we don't need it, we've got to reinvest and make sure we're taking care of people and business. But everything above that, rather than kicking out for yachts or whatever the hell, we're going to dedicate to charities and causes. And you know that example that our dad and mom and uncle laid down of, like you know, if we can afford it, we're going to give it, you know, and that really set the example for it's beautiful.

AJ: 26:35

Yeah, so you'd read this in terms of the business stuff, you'd read this book that was transformative to how you thought about business and, funny enough, I did a business degree okay, but then went away from it because of I couldn't see yeah, that it was this other force.

David: 26:50

Exactly what?

AJ: 26:50

it exists for. You read this book. It turned the light on, but you didn't have any training. But I guess you imbibed it, perhaps because ever since you took it on it's really gone. I guess it's embraced the generation the next generation's work is the least you'd say for it but it's gone incredible lengths from the platform that you took over from in terms of the regenerative organic certification you mentioned earlier, going way beyond organic and fair trade and, of course, in just business, the rewards from doing that, it seems. How has that journey been for you? I guess the last 20, 25 years in a business sense? How did you get to be good at it like that?

David: 27:35

Yeah Well, I guess there's a couple answers, but I guess you know just the real nuts and bolts is Ken Huggins is our accountant and high-level business coach and there's a program called the E-Myth Program. It's kind of like a business school for busy family executives. So you know you don't have time to go to school but you know, but your business case is your own business and you know. So it's a really good way of just kind of like teaching. You know that's the kind of business 101 of running a business and you know understanding your cost margin structure and marketing and sales and you know getting some basic sense business sense and that was enjoyable for you.

AJ: 28:14

It wasn't a drag.

David: 28:16

No, it was great. I mean, and what was great is like you know all the you know they weren't like hypothetical business cases, right, it was our own business you know that was that issue and like, okay, and you know who's our psychographic demographic. You know, like you know, it wasn't an abstract exercise, right, yes, which I never really learned that great in an abstract way. It was just very more like practical, more like practical, like you know what's actually practical, what do I?

AJ: 28:39

actually care about. I think that's true for a lot more of us than we realize yeah, yeah, yeah, totally so.

David: 28:46

Um, and I think it's still out there the emith. I'm sure it's in some seventh version, since whatever but it was.

David: 28:52

It was, it was definitely helpful. But then, yeah, you know, I mean like our, you know, I guess in some ways we were pioneering a new business model of and you know, instead of investing, in some ways we were pioneering a new business model of instead of investing in paid media, we were investing in activism and that activism was generating a massive amount of earned media for us. So, for example, that hemp, putting hemp seed oil in the soap and getting this big fight with the DEA, which we weren't doing that to do that, and we actually thought Gore was going to be elected, not Bush, but we got Bush. And then we got 9-11 and then we got, you know this crazy. You know right wing, you know kind of wish list, um, but hemp, to your point, there was like kind of at the nexus, both drug policy, reform and, you know, fast forward. You know, like now we're at the vanguard of helping integrate psychedelic medicines. And you know reform, you know the drug war approach to a more compassionate, empathic treatment, first for people who are struggling, but then also, you know, industrial hemp grows like a weed, it doesn't need a whole lot of synthetic inputs. But it was quickly apparent that cannabis, although it can be grown in a really regenerative, awesome way, all too often is not and has grown in the worst possible way. And that a crop like palm, which is generally grown in the worst possible way, yeah, um, actually can be grown in the best possible way. And it's not about any one crop, it's about a management approach to all crops and the and you know, basically begin our path to regenerative organic.

David: 30:19

You know, like, how do we farm in a way that's good for the soil, good for the ecosystem, good for the people, the farmers, the workers? You know, rather than exploiting farming communities and playing them off against each other and figuring out what country has the most lax environmental standards, that you know the lowest cost of production. You know how do we actually like elevate and go to market in partnership with our farming? You know our supplier partners and like, so that you know they're making a fair income and can take care of their people and their land and their families. And then, you know, build fertility on the farm. You know. You know, like biodynamic really pioneered this, but you know, then, regenerative organic is a term of space biodynamic without the woo-woo, it's's just.

David: 30:58

You know, like, how do you build that fertility on the farm and yeah just really kind of went on a big adventure with each of our major raw material. So coconut, palm, olive, mint and tea tree and now a lot of lavender like a lot of our major material are now being farmed in this really awesome way. We co-founded the Regenerative Organic Standard, which takes organic as a baseline and then layers on next-level soil health, animal welfare and fair labor criteria into a single consumer-facing standard. And yeah, now we're basically it took a while to really get all of our supply chain certified but we're basically inside of the next eight months all our bar and liquid soaps are going to be certified under the standard. A couple of our chocolate is now already. Our coconut oil is already. You know, various of our major material supply chains are.

David: 31:54

But bringing it all together it's. You know it's taken a while but we're about to. You know, first quarter next year but we're about the, you know, first quarter next year we'll be totally certified under the standard and it's like 15 million acres now already. It's like really starting to get traction. Patagonia so we co-founded patagonia, the clothing company that's. You know we're very deeply allied with and they have a very similar ethic of really drilling down into the supply chain, down to the farmer level, make sure it's all good all the way down, all the way up, and Rodale it's kind of the godfather of the organic movement in the States Compassion, well Farming, a really good animal welfare group, and then World Project, a really good, fair labor. So, anyways, we kind of came together that was the core to really found a standard.

AJ: 32:38

Yeah, amazing to see, and the numbers of farmers and families that are benefiting from this is is escalating into the thousands. Now it just goes to show. I guess you feel like even the potential of that is just nascent. It's just beginning what it could do, for people also notice. Of course there's other certification efforts coming on as well. Is that a matter of let a thousand flowers bloom, or would you like to see more coherence around that?

David: 33:10

Yeah, the latter.

David: 33:10

I mean there's obviously a spectrum of regen washing kind of companies like, oh we did a cover crop but we're still using synthetic nitrogen and herbicides, and it's just like.

David: 33:25

I mean, one of the big promises of regenerative farming, when done right, is that you can sequester atmospheric carbon and build up humus in the soil, build carbon in the soil and at global scale, this could really draw down excess carbon dioxide and legacy greenhouse gas and be a significant mitigator of climate change.

David: 33:44

But synthetic nitrogen is the single largest contributor to climate change from agriculture, which is a huge driver of the sixth great extinction event we're living through and climate change and everything. So when your quote-unquote regenerative standard, you know, lets you use as much synthetic nitrogen as you want, then well, there's some cognitive dissonance going on here and, um, all that said, we we do support, you know, meeting farmers where they're at and taking them on a journey, but that journey does need, at some point they do need, to graduate off synthetic fertility and pesticides and standards that don't do that and just kind of like say, okay, you don't do xyz, but ultimately you don't need to draw. It's like saying like to the us auto industry is like hybrids enough. Don't worry about going electric. You know we're, we're gonna.

David: 34:34

We're gonna solve climate change with hybrid technology and it's like no man, you got to decarbonize, you got to go all the way and and and we feel like on on the standards that so I can't know the synthetic inputs. And then the other big one is feed, animal feed. You know so much ag land is dedicated to corn, soy and alfalfa for for animal feed. And if your standard is silent, just measuring carbon on your ranch but you're not taking account of like well, how that was a feed grown, especially for monogastric. So ruminants, at least theoretically can you know, survive entirely on the grass on your ranch, although often bought in hay and alfalfa comes in and well, how is that grown? But with monogastrics, chickens and pigs or omnivores, they can supplement from pasture. You know, you can definitely, you know, get, you know some of their nutritional needs, but the lion's share of their diet is still bought in grain like soy and corn, although you could grow it on the farm and the better farms do. But accounting for how that feed and that off-farm feed is, you know, like if I weighed a magic wand and got all these pigs and chickens out of these confined animal feeding operations, these factory farms, and on to pasture, the metabolic need on pasture they're moving around a lot more. So they're eating probably more corn and soy and whatever than their factory farm counterparts.

David: 35:54

That monoculture desert, the GMO, soy and corn, the blankets, so much of that kind of thing't. Nothing's going to change, if you know. Just putting them on pasture. You gotta like your standard news to take account. How is that feed growing? Was it regenerative or was it not? And if it's not, then it's like a, it's an illusion, it's like okay, well, your carbon looks nice on your pasture, but you know, and you're eating all this synthetic nitrogen fed, gmo, whatever corn it's being pooped on your pasture. That, yeah, pasture looks great. But like what about the soils over there?

AJ: 36:24

Exactly. It's interesting that I mean, when you said before it was with the palm oil and the hemp, it was more the management than even the nature of those plants, and it's the same with the animals, isn't it? And this has been a standout of your story too, as a vegan I guess you still are that. You've talked about this too, so that's not cognitive dissonance for you. This is an embrace of your philosophy, the all-one philosophy, but it's an interesting one knowing that, again, there's such a battleground out there, isn't there between vegan and and meat eaters?

David: 36:53

yeah, and, and I think, um, you know I've gone on a big journey understanding how high animal welfare pasture-based systems can be ecological can you know manage grazing on ruminants especially? I mean the regenerative logic with ruminants is pretty powerful in that, you know, you look at the development of the richest top soils in the world and the ruminant, these huge herds of bison and buffalo, you know, just going with predator pressure, going through the land and not overgrazing anyone's spot, and the co-evolution of these like grasslands and topsoils. And similarly in our farming ecosystem. If you manage grazing correctly, you know it's kind of like fire. Fire is horrible if it's not managed, but if grazing is the same thing. But if you manage the impact, the animal impact, in a good way, like it can be, to the benefit of the farming ecosystem, just like in a wild ecosystem. But, uh, all too often we're not doing that. You know we're feeding corn to cows, which is crazy, and then, um, and then with chickens and pigs, like you know, ideally you're not feeding them primary grain crops. Historically, if you go to subsistence farmers or indigenous villages, you've got chickens and pigs just kind of running around eating the inedible waste and that's the regenerative logic.

David: 38:13

But yeah, basically, we have, generally speaking, way too many livestock. We've got to reduce the population. Integrate them back into the farms, out of these factory farms in these manure lagoons and all this horribleness. Integrate them where they can fulfill their instinctual behaviors, lead a good life, actually contribute to the on-farm fertility. And personally I don't have a big problem when an animal gets to live a good life, fulfills its instinctual behavior and its end is humane and quick and feel. I'm in solidarity. But that veganism and I feed my dog grass fed beef, whatever, but veganism it's an easy discipline. I mean, some people find it maybe not so easy, but the problem with my ethical omnivore friends and I do have some but it is much more difficult, once you open that channel, to have discipline because there's just so much on offer in our culture that's just coming from the worst of the worst.

AJ: 39:13

It's a good point this is part of what our journey has been like is to be okay, where's the line now as previously? Vegetarians for a long time and vegans for small periods within that, but certainly vegetarians for decades independently, before I met my wife. We're sort of treading the same path and then going on this learning journey as well, yeah, and having now resumed a bit of meat eating, yeah, and a little like trying to find that right yeah, the right yeah and then also where, where you don't, because you don't know where it comes from and where you bend and where you don't.

AJ: 39:45

So I really appreciate that point you've just made about that internal discipline. How do you manage that when you open it up? It is something we're working at.

David: 39:55

I know, yeah, and you know, at Bronner's, you know like, as the vegan, I kind of manage it for everyone. It's like you know. It's like, okay, we do vegan meals every day and then twice a week we do the grass-fed beef or, like you know, really high animal welfare, we can have meat options and trying to say like hey, if it's not on this level, you can rock your life on a plant-based diet, you know. Just trying to put that out there, yeah, because equally I mean I've seen vegetable crops look like dust bowls.

AJ: 40:26

Oh yeah, I mean you can totally yeah yeah, it's not the thing, it's the management.

David: 40:28

Again, yeah, I mean the thing about animal agriculture is it just magnet? It's a magnifier. Yeah, it's like you know, like the whatever, the caloric conversion of the you know, plant-based carbohydrates and energy and proteins into the animal energy. You know there's, like you know, 10 timesbased carbohydrates and energy and proteins into the animal energy. You know there's, like you know, 10 times loss. So, yeah, if you're doing when you're eating the animal and you're not, you're being unconscious, then you're just supporting like a magnification of everything bad. But then if it is a room, you know grass-fed and and honestly I mean it's, it's you know, I kind of feel like the best ethical choice is basically grass-fed beef.

AJ: 41:03

Yeah.

David: 41:03

You know it's the most ecological and humane. Animals generally get to live a good life. And you know the chicken genetics are just horrible. You know like. You know they've just been bred to. You know, in 20 days they can't even stand up. It's beyond belief. Yeah, although there are, you know good, you know in 20 days they can't even stand up. It's beyond belief.

AJ: 41:24

Yeah, although there are, you know, good, you know heirloom varieties of chickens. We've covered some of it on the podcast too it's. There are some outstanding people approaching that too. I I'm wondering do you feel like there are more businesses taking this ethos on? Is it coming on?

David: 41:40

yeah, um, yeah, I mean that's that's a hundred million dollar question, a billion dollar question? Uh, yeah, you know, I mean, unfortunately, there's just so many examples of mission-driven brands that get bought by cbgs yeah just kind of get their mission gets hollowed out.

David: 41:56

And you know, that's certainly certainly the story of our industry. But, you know, I think there are more and more kind of strong independent mission, independent brands out there that do have this ethic and we're actually in the process. You know, I guess maybe it would be the first public talking about it, but we're helping develop what we're calling the purpose pledge, um, and it's basically taking, like you know, some 10 core criteria that really distinguish, uh, what we consider to be a real mission, ethical business. And, you know, really getting at the heart of your operations, like your supply chain integrity, you know echo, social certification of your supply chain, where most of your impact is, you know, as cool as what we do here in our headquarters and our factory.

David: 42:43

This is like 5% of our impact. I mean, it's all the farmers and workers in our supply chain. You know what's our sourcing practice. That's that, you know, and really just 10 key criteria. And yeah, you know there's some really good businesses out there and we want to just really kind of create a home for the patagonias and bronners of the world and you know, like just really dedicated through and through and have that mission, integrity and independence and and then like create a financing, like an investment mechanism that will invest in these startups and in these companies and will be patient and isn't these kind of like pseudo impact?

David: 43:20

but still, ultimately, the same kind of exit focused, whatever that just puts.

AJ: 43:26

You know, whipsaws everyone's missions and this is a critical edge of things, so it's really interesting to hear it comes through time and time again here as well yeah that edge of getting the right finance yeah, totally you know.

David: 43:38

It's almost like a you know in between, like you know, profit maximizing investments and philanthropic grants. You know there's this whole spectrum and yeah, just, yeah, just really like being patient, not looking for mega return, yeah huge.

AJ: 43:53

I'll look forward to following that. David, I'm conscious that music sounds like music's been a big part of your life, right? I end every one of our episodes asking my guests about a piece of music that's been significant in their lives. I wonder what might come to mind for you.

David: 44:10

Well, you know it's popping in my head right now. I mean, I love music. I have a saying like 5% of every genre is great, 95% sucks.

AJ: 44:21

You know, it's another way of saying what I've said over the years too, but that's a nice way to put it.

David: 44:24

Yeah, yeah. So I've got like broad love for music. Jimi Hendrix, of course, is amazing, but you know I love going to Burning man and love all the incredible music out there.

AJ: 44:46

Well, there's plenty of bad music out there and love all the incredible music out there.

David: 44:51

Well, there's plenty of bad music out there. We've still been listening to Jimi Hendrix coming down the California coast. Oh, right on, man, it still lives 60 years old. Oh geez, yeah, man. But I went to Roger Waters' the Wall when he was here like 20 years ago Get out. Yeah, or maybe it was 15 years ago, and he was at the Anaheim duck stadium and uh, oh my gosh, and I had never been to a floyd concert and wasn't particularly a fan of being floyd, but I was just so mind-blowing. We had a, like a salisbury gummy, you know, my friend split it and my kid and and x were with us and oh my gosh, man, that was just such a show and, like you know, it just felt like I was getting a download of the human condition and, yeah, I remember, like the cables in from the roof or like the roots of the tree of life and we were in Plato's sacred cave just getting like whoa, that was a mega mega one.

AJ: 45:34

He's incredible.

David: 45:35

He's incredible.

AJ: 45:37

Well, David, it's kudos to you, mate. I think what you're doing here is incredible. It's an absolute pleasure to share your company.

David: 45:43

AJ: Thanks for being with me. DB: Yeah, right on, thank you, brother.

AJ: 45:46

That was David Bronner, Cosmic Engagement Officer of Dr Bronner's. For more on David and Dr Bronner's, see the links in the show notes. Thanks to Mike, Kelly, Lilia, Garrison, Cassidy, Brennan and the rest of the Bronner's team, including Mel back home at Bronner's Australia, for hosting us and showing us around after David and I spoke. What an operation and what a tour - one to jump on if you ever get the chance. I can also tell you that our travelling vehicle's never smelled so good. It was a happy birthday to Mike Bronner that day too, so the festive vibe was cooking on all fronts, and I'd like to pay homage to Trudy Bronner, recently turned 80 and still going strong, I'm told. S he wasn't there that day, but her presence could be felt. As always, I'll put a few photos on the website and more on Patreon for subscribing members, because it's thanks again to you, generous supporting listeners for making this episode possible. If you've been thinking about becoming a member or other kind of supporter, please consider joining us. Just head to the website or the show notes and follow the prompts, thank you. Thanks, too, for sharing the podcast with friends and continuing to rate it on your preferred app.

AJ: 47:06

The music you're hearing is Regeneration by Amelia Barden, and at the top you heard Green Shoots by The Nomadics. My name's Anthony James. Thanks for listening. The jacket's making the swoosh sound. DB: Oh gosh, yeah, let me pull that out.

David: 47:59

No worries, yeah, got warmed up anyway.

AJ: 48:03

I'll pick up the thread. Yes!

David: 48:06

Oh, you can tell your listeners we were on a sailboat. Wow, yeah.

AJ: 48:13

Bloody delightful mate. Thanks.

David: 48:15

Awesome. Yeah, thanks for that, that was awesome.

AJ: 48:17

Yeah.

David: 48:18

Well, yeah, man, you're like tapped in, that's awesome.