The RegenNarration Podcast
The RegenNarration podcast features the stories of a generation that is changing the story, enabling the regeneration of life on this planet. It’s ad-free, freely available and entirely listener-supported. You'll hear from high profile and grass-roots leaders from around Australia and the world, on how they're changing the stories we live by, and the systems we create in their mold. Along with often very personal tales of how they themselves are changing, in the places they call home. With award-winning host, Anthony James.
The RegenNarration Podcast
One of the Great Ones: With Nina Simons & Kenny Ausubel
A number of you have said last week’s episode was one of the best, with legendary Bioneers founders Nina Simons and Kenny Ausubel. So in honour of that, and in case you missed it, or haven’t heard through to the end, this week’s release is an excerpt of the last 20 minutes or so of a very rare public conversation with the two of them together.
We pick it up where the conversation shifted gear, when I asked about the repeated uncanny happenings that have blessed their lives – including the magic tale of how Bioneers was saved (a story Nina doesn’t usually talk about in public).
Then we go on to talk about the power of work to come with Bioneers, what they’ve got to say to us next generations at this time, and what we can do to create and receive better media. Listen for the interplay of the thunder storm that rolled in towards the end too.
If you’ve come here first, tune into the full episode, ‘A Life’s Wisdom, Transformation & Romance, with legendary Bioneers founders Nina Simons & Kenny Ausubel’. You’ll find a few links in the show notes there too, along with a transcript, and a few photos on the episode website, with more on Patreon for subscribing members.
Title slide image: Kenny & Nina from the 2018 Bioneers Conference (pic: Genevieve Russell).
Music:
Regeneration, by Amelia Barden, from Regenerating Australia.
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I pick up through this conversation, perhaps particularly early, that levels and moments of uncanny happenstances that were pivotal and I know you've written about it and talked about it too these times in your life where the things that you wouldn't have perceived even possible, or even to be there invisible forces, if you will, or at least the uncanny how that you just happen to be there or that happened to happen then I'm curious then again over the journey of your lives to date. How do you reflect on that, those forces? Is there something there that you've developed language around or a sense around you?
Nina:know. Know, what I would say about that, aj, is that I was not raised with any formal religious training, and that was a blessing for me, because when I found my way into a spiritual relationship with life, what I have come to recognize is that for me, the divine is embodied in what I call mother life, or what is commonly referred to as the natural world. You know, I love nature, I mean with a passion that really I used to think that if I showed it in public, people would think I was crazy, yeah, right, but I really really love it. People would think I was crazy, right, but I really really love it. And and I believe that, you know, that framework allows me to imagine that there are all kinds of invisible forces on our side and I mean, it's true that in our lives together there have been so many blessings that often seem counterintuitive or how did you do that? Or wow, that was lucky.
Nina:Um, I mean, it's amazing to me that we've pulled off pioneers for 35 years, but we have and there's been a lot of prayer behind it and, I believe, a lot of support from from mother life, um, because I think she's the greatest power there is. She and love, right are the greatest powers we have, and so my personal opinion is that we've had a lot of help, and I don't know exactly where it comes from. I don't know if it's ancestors or disembodied spirits or nature herself, but I know that we've had it and I know that it's real, at least for me.
Kenny:You know they don't call it the great mystery for nothing. I made a film series that's relevant to this that hopefully your listeners won't run away screaming. You can see it online if you dare, Called Changing of the Gods when the Stars Align for Revolutionary Times. I don't know if you're familiar with it, AJ, I don't know if I am either.
Kenny:So when I was first fleeing the East Coast, I landed in San Francisco for about nine months and made friends with an older woman and her daughter who was a Russian emigre and she was very mystical, looked like a tarot card herself, and I'm coming out of hardcore politic, political activism and student movements, and she wants me to get an astrology reading and I did everything, politely, that I could to sidestep it, dodge it, ignore it, and finally she really leaned on me and said, all right, all right, all right. Well, this guy told me, this astrologer told me more about myself than anyone could possibly have known. In fact told me more than I knew and things that actually influenced my life from there. So I was just interested in that. But astrology has been regarded, as you know, magical thinking and nonsense and, you know, quackery, whatever, and so it's not something for polite company and I never particularly, you know, talk about it with people.
Kenny:But anyway, long story short, I asked a friend of mine who's an astrologer if there were any great books written not about personal, subjective, person-centered astrology, but societal. Are there forces happening all at once to all of us that can actually be documented in any sense? Or, you know, attract in that way, and he turned me on to this amazing book called Cosmos and Psyche Intimations of a New Worldview by Richard Tarnas, and Richard is an exceptional. He's a cultural historian and exceptional scholar, really, really serious scholar, with classical training as a Jesuit coming out of high school and all that. But he backcast across history to look at, at any given time, the outer planets which move more slowly from Saturn on out Jupiter. Actually, were there patterns that could be discerned culturally, mass culture, and I read the book in 2012,. It absolutely blew my mind. I mean, the data are overwhelming, you know, and these periods correspond to the archetypes that astrologers associate with those planets. So the real metric which, of course, Carl Jung wrote the famous monograph synchronicity.
Kenny:Are coincidences, just coincidences, or is something aligning here that these things somehow happen? The conditions are there for something to happen, and so synchronicity is actually one of our metrics in terms of you know, you're in the flow when things click in those ways. It also means you really have to be paying attention. It's not like there's a hand of fate that's going to do this for you. You've got to be, you know, in the game and paying attention, and there's a lot of nuance and subtlety.
Kenny:And you know, for example, Uranus, the planet Uranus, among other things, is the trickster. You know the coyote, and one of the characteristics of the trickster is, as Freud famously said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, not a phallic symbol. So sometimes it could just be a fake out. Don't be too sure of yourself, Humility is our constant companion. But, yeah, I think synchronicity for myself when I feel like I'm in the flow and really paying attention and looking for cues and clues. And you know and you don't always know, and you certainly don't always know something in the moment. It may not become clear for years or decades later that oh wow, look what happened at that moment. You know so.
Nina:Well, and I want to add, because I think you're very modest about this, changing of the gods is really well worth checking out. It's wonderful, it's available online and it's a brilliant masterwork I instantly assumed that, oh, I didn't listen to it I didn't listen to that bit.
Kenny:the the last episode is called Conscious Cosmos. And what if? Let's say so? The film tracks this one particular planetary picture of the planets Uranus and Pluto, which each time they recur. According to the hypothesis anyway, it's a period of revolutionary transformation, large scale upheaval, you know, political upheaval across every sector of human life. So it happened from 2007 through the end of 2020. The last time it happened was 1960 to 1972. Is that right? Everybody in this last period was saying God, this is like the 60s. Yes, and you go back in time and each leapfrog across these cycles when that picture recurs French Revolution, same period, mid-19th century, same period, every single time.
Kenny:So what that suggests is could it be that consciousness is actually inherent in the cosmos itself? We're not just talking about intelligence and nature. Very few people dispute that anymore. I mean, it's been held for 500 years in science that human beings are the only ones who have intelligence. Everything else is just a machine, a dumb machine, right, instinctual and mechanical. Well, we know that's not true anymore. But what if consciousness itself is part of the fabric of the universe?
Nina:So that's the kind of next level, if you dare to go where our species has not fully gone before. It's also an amazing view of movement history throughout time I mean it's quite.
AJ:yeah, let's go where humanity hasn't been before, have we maybe oh, well, ancient cultures have Traditional indigenous.
Kenny:Sure, of course it's all ancient, not all. But I mean the thing now is we've had the capacity to destroy life but on a limited scale, whether it's regional or local.
Kenny:Now it's global and it's the entire species at risk and and the biosphere as we know it. Earth will be fine. Earth's got at least another billion years to go before it blows up and turns into a red dwarf. But we're not talking about saving the Earth, we're talking about saving ourselves. You know, let's get real here. Nature will repair, just not on a human time frame.
Nina:And a bunch of our relative species.
Kenny:Yes, if you take a bunch with us, so we need the ancient knowledge and we also need every tool we've got, which includes contemporary science, which includes all the you know. This is when people say we're in uncharted territory. Actually we're in territory that has never existed on a human timeframe. It's not that it's uncharted.
AJ:This hasn't been here before, yeah, so it makes me recall the story I've heard from you, I think, nina of how Bioneers even made it through all those years. I remember the story of the funding that came your way when you were nearly done and dusted that came out of an uncanny situation. I just feel like adding a little more flesh on the bone from your lived experience to this conversation before we move to wind up with the funder who came to you after a meditation.
Nina:Yeah.
AJ:Yeah.
Nina:So it was. It was nearing the end of the year and we were a half a million dollars short of meeting our budget. And as the year end was drawing closer and closer, we had gone to all of our major funders and asked them to consider that and they had all said no. And I was working with a woman who was trained in several indigenous modalities and I considered to be quite knowledgeable And-.
Kenny:And a deep meditator actually.
Nina:Well, but that-.
Kenny:Oh, oh, sorry, go ahead.
Nina:No, and I kind of said it as a throwaway line like gee, is there anything you could teach me that could help me to attract resources to Bioneers? And she was very serious and she said, yes, I'll show you. And she taught me I don't talk about this in public much, she taught me how to program a crystal.
Nina:She taught me how to program a crystal and you know, had it been anyone else teaching me something like that, I would have been rolling my eyes, I would have been out the door, I would have just scoffed. But this woman was someone I respected so deeply and so I paid close attention and I did everything she taught me, and a few days it was actually just about the middle of December a funder called and said I heard in my meditation this morning that I should give you what you wanted. And I had been meditating and focusing. You know, programming the crystal involved developing a visualization for what you wanted to have happen. And so I had Bioneers as this great tree and I had women around it watering the tree and paying homage to the tree. And there it was. We just got this phone call out of the blue, that's interesting though.
AJ:So it was metaphor you were envisaging, though it wasn't money in your hand.
Nina:No, not at all. It was nurturance to the system.
AJ:That's interesting.
Nina:Yeah, yeah.
AJ:That is fascinating. I'm so glad for it. Okay, so, with that in mind, as we weave to a close, you guys are obviously still powering on. I'm wondering what's next for you, and have you any words for us? Next gen? Even what might be to look out for.
Nina:Well, I would love to see Bioneers be reached and visible by people, many more people around the world, because we do sometimes refer to it as a natural antidepressant and we know that an awful lot of young people have come to Bioneers saying you know, I showed up here in despair, not knowing what I could possibly do with my life, and a great many of them have come to me and said you know, now I feel like I have 10 options and I even know how to pursue them and how to learn about them and see if I can go that way.
Nina:So that's one thing I mean I would say to next gen young people, many next gens actually.
Nina:We need you, and I want to remind us all that we need each other, because I don't think we have a lot of training in intergenerational collaboration and I think this is a time that really calls for it.
Nina:And you know, as an elder myself now a young elder, a yelder I call myself I'm learning how to be in reciprocal mentorship with young people and how to really respect what they know more than I do and what I know from my own lived experience.
Nina:And so I just want to encourage folks to see what lights you up and pursue that and don't worry so much about the money, worry about what lights you up, because that's what's regenerative and we all, I mean I feel so lucky and blessed to have done work that surrounds me with people who inspire me and who help me coalesce a vision of the world we're all working towards and we need that, but we need each other to get there more than anything. So you know, practice collaboration and don't ignore your internal realities, and let yourself feel your emotions and become aware of what your body's wisdom is teaching you, because we need that too. I mean, nature created us and we didn't create her, and there's a lot of wisdom in all these systems that have been devalued by our cultures but that we need now. So listen for all of it.
AJ:Oh, nina, before you start, kenny, sometimes nature chimes in at the most extraordinary moments, rolling thunder here. Quite often I'm telling you there we are, kenny okay, well, the drum roll.
Kenny:It was sunny when we started, and now, it's completely gray and thunderous you know, this is a dire moment. Let's not. I mean, and it really is now or never we're already in overtime is the truth. So the pressure I always feel is how to make a difference that really makes a difference, because there are all kinds of great things to do, but is it to really move the needle?
AJ:I love that line.
Kenny:So one thing is that really since the beginning, our MO has been around part of it, anyway, has been around nature-based solutions. That's still what's missing in the bigger mix. The train has left the station. In terms of renewable energy, it's happening. They're going to slow it down, hobble it, do whatever they can, but forget it. The game is over. Fossil fuels are history. This could move really quickly from here. In fact, for economic reasons, yeah, exactly yeah, I think so.
Kenny:But the nature-based solutions is that paradigm clash and people are still so undereducated about this and just don't understand. So we're looking at doing some special projects now, both with media, but also actual on-the-ground stuff, to try to catalyze, scale and advance the adoption of nature-based solutions, which also relates directly to land conservation, has a lot of implications for indigenous peoples. The rights of nature movement now is really actually a serious thing and is gaining tremendous traction globally, and it's transpartisan it's not left and right at all, you know. So that's something that I'm really excited about and that I'm personally very engaged in. And then, you know, given for a lot of reasons I mean a lot of what I do is media and you know that kind of thing and so we're doubling down on a lot of our media and I think the other really huge issue, as I said, is it's the corporation's. Stupid People have misdirected or been misdirected to blame government. It's not government. Government has been captured by the corporations, don't kid yourself, and they're manipulating it every which way for their own interests and to deflect you, so don't kid yourself about that.
Kenny:So we're looking at doing some special projects and partnering with a number of people and we have a new project relatively that just started last may, called by news learning, which is an actual platform for trainings, workshops, how to get in the game if you're not in the game, to learn about these different you know, like, if you want to learn how, what rights of nature is and how to actually bring it to your community, you can do that. So whatever your interest is kind of yeah, so we're going to be scaling that up over the next year or two and and looking at you know other anyway, a lot of some interesting political projects, but really yeah, um, and then we're deep, deep into the indigenous thing, as we have been from the beginning, and that's um, it's tribes are at the forefront worldwide in so many of these issues, including the rights of nature, movement, and there's so much to learn. Still there to communicate. So rightful place. Yeah, that's what we're up to, yeah.
AJ:Well, so much yes. Nina.
Nina:Yeah, I just wanted to add that. You know, for me it helps to remember that we are in this moment of birthing a new civilization because, everything about the civilization we've inherited is crumbling and falling apart.
Nina:We know it's not working and it's terribly corrupted. So for me, what's exciting about that is that the opportunity for young people is to see what you love and what you most want to protect and defend, because there are opportunities for reinvention everywhere, whether it's working with children or in health care or an economy, or I mean really every aspect of human civilization. And so you know, if you don't focus so much about money, do what you love and trust that the money will come. That's what I would say.
Kenny:Yeah, yeah, I think I mean people ask me, young people, or young people ask me you know what should I do, and I have enough trouble figuring out my own life. I'm not really big on giving advice, but I really agree with Nina if you follow your heart, you can't go wrong there's so much media that's falling away, and not just the disruption to mainstream, the old weeklies and public radio.
AJ:Where's the way in media? I mean you're doing your bit, obviously. Is there something more of us should be doing on that front or can be doing?
Kenny:Well, you know, one of the most important things, certainly in this country I'm hesitant to always talk about other places because I really don't know but one of the worst things that happened is the corporatization of local media, because although people don't trust the national mass media, they do trust local and the weather and the sports and the local news.
Kenny:And the right wing was very clever in corporatizing those and putting the same message out and the same disinformation, and it's well shown that when people get good local news, they make much better decisions about actual solutions and pathways and that, among other things, is really critical. We just did a big panel at Bioneers this year about that and we're about to produce a radio show about that.
AJ:Really, I'll look forward to that.
Kenny:Yeah, it's a critically, critically important thing. And also, much more news is moving to non-profit now. Um, that's another key to the whole thing. If you stop monetizing and you know commodifying and you know all the news, then you get much better news you get much better food underwear.
AJ:You get much better everything. No, you get much better everything. Arguably. I think you can see the threads, can't you? They go through the whole thing. It's really powerful, because in Australia right now those corporates abandoned local media during COVID. They just dropped them, so towns had nothing.
AJ:But now, just in the last 12 months even there's a plethora of outlets coming up that are just often young people some ex-prominent journos, but some just community getting together and even in print, and they're making it work and, of course, without those lofty expectations of what a public radio CEO still expects to get, for example. That make it hard to make it viable. Quote unquote, that's true. Yeah, I really take stock of that. That's a mechanism that's already seeding again in the shadows.
Nina:Well, in every way of connecting locally with your local community, whether it's your food system where does your water come from gathering with your neighbours and having potlucks, getting to know the people that are around you. I think you know that's a really important key.
Kenny:A friend of ours likes to say how we're going to hold it together is to hold it together, that is beautiful and I think back to where we started around.
AJ:the sensitivity to soil, seed, plant, ancestor, yeah, let alone processes with our immediate ancestors like that. The whole kit sort of dovetails in there.
Kenny:Well, I told you, aj, I don't do interviews anymore. I just don't do it for whatever reasons. You looked really pretty good, but that wasn't enough. But Australia, we have really good friends in Australia and someday we aspire to come there. So that's why we're sitting here with you our agenda.
AJ:You, you must have manifested it you, you must have meditated for you Secretly, clearly. Oh yeah, no, in all seriousness knowing that about you, kenny, I'm doubly grateful and very much grateful to you both for having me at your table here. It's been a really moving conversation for me and an absolute honour to be here, thanks.
Nina:Thanks for your work.
Kenny:I enjoyed myself.
Nina:Yeah, me too Good luck.
AJ:Thanks.
Kenny:Thanks for your work.
Nina:I enjoyed myself, yeah me too.
Kenny:Good luck, we really support your work.
AJ:NS: Yeah, it's beautiful. AJ: Right back at you. Y, That was Nina Simons and Kenny Ausubel, the legendary founders of Bioneers at home in the land of enchantment, Santa Fe, New Mexico. See various links in the show notes, including to my favourite episode on the wonderful Bioneers podcast and perhaps my favourite of any podcast, Undam the Klamath: H ow tribes led the largest river restoration project in US history, nd to say I'm looking forward to watching Changing of the Gods is an understatement. I'll have more from here, as always for subscribing members on Patreon, with great thanks to all of you generous supporting listeners for making this episode possible. If you'd like to join us, just head to the website or the show notes and follow the prompts. Thank you, and thanks, of course, for sharing the podcast with friends or family. The music you're hearing is Regeneration by Amelia Barden and, at the top, Green Shoots by the Nomadics. My name's Anthony James. Thanks for listening. Thank you, beautiful. Wow, you're doing great. Excellent. Yeah, wow, that'll be very nice in the background.
Kenny:Will you hear the thunder?
AJ:You will.
Kenny:Oh, fun yeah.
