The RegenNarration Podcast
The RegenNarration podcast features the stories of a generation that is changing the story, enabling the regeneration of life on this planet. It’s ad-free, freely available and entirely listener-supported. You'll hear from high profile and grass-roots leaders from around Australia and the world, on how they're changing the stories we live by, and the systems we create in their mold. Along with often very personal tales of how they themselves are changing, in the places they call home. With award-winning host, Anthony James.
The RegenNarration Podcast
218. Visiting Aldo Leopold’s Shack: On the 75th anniversary of A Sand County Almanac, with Dr Katie Ross
Aldo Leopold has profoundly influenced the modern conservation and regeneration movement. He affected nearly every national conservation initiative in the US during the 1930s and 40s, and this year marks the 75th anniversary of his classic book A Sand County Almanac. Hard to believe now that it was rejected many times before being finally accepted just one week before his death. Since then, the book has been translated into at least fifteen languages and sold well over two million copies.
Today, we visit the land that inspired it, by the Wisconsin River, in Baraboo, Wisconsin. Land that was clapped out and abandoned before he bought and regenerated it with his family – also converting the famous shack from what was a chook shed. Our family starts up the road at the Centre run by the Aldo Leopold Foundation, honourably marking the place of Aldo’s death.
Then we head out to the shack, where Aldo arrived at so many of his insights, and where I’m joined in conversation about the man, the regeneration happening here and around it, and the meaning of Aldo’s legacy today, by Dr Katie Ross - dear friend, very generous long-time podcast subscriber, former Acting-CEO of Soils for Life back in Australia (founded by our former Governor-General Michael Jefferies), and now returned local to America’s Dairyland in the State of Wisconsin. Though it was her first time to the shack too.
This episode has chapter markers and a transcript, if you’d like to navigate the conversation that way (available on most apps now too). The transcript is AI generated and imperfect, but hopefully provides greater access for those who need or like to read.
Recorded 14 August 2024 (intro recorded at dawn today at Chute Falls in Ontario, Canada).
Title slide: Aldo Leopold outside the shack (from the Foundation’s website).
See more photos on the website, and for more from behind the scenes, become a member via the Patreon page.
Music:
Green Shoots, by The Nomadics.
Regeneration, by Amelia Barden, from Regenerating Australia.
The RegenNarration playlist, music chosen by guests (thanks to Josie Symons).
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Again imakes me curious. What has been his impact across the world and that power of one person's ability? o communicate what it is that they believe in, and not necessarily trying to convince or to cjole, but to just share his words in the most beautiful, authentic way and then see how that lands with everyone else?
AJ:Today we're doing something very special, something I've looked forward to since well before arriving in the US Turtle Island A visit to the shack of Aldo Leopold. For many, aldo will need no introduction, but for still too many of us, it seems he does. So, finding myself in awe during this visit and in some brilliant local company, someone many of you might also know, we felt the call to pull out the microphones and record this to share with you. G'day Anthony James here for The RegenNarration - a d-free, freely available and entirely supported by listeners like you. Thanks a lot, Erin Scott and Kathryn for becoming very generous subscribing members this week, and Erin for being such support during our time in Minnesota. If you're finding value in this too, please join Erin and Kathryn, part of a great community of supporting listeners. Just head to the website via the show notes regennarration. com forward slash support - and thanks again.
AJ:Aldo Leopold has profoundly influenced the modern conservation and regeneration movement. He affected nearly every national conservation initiative in the US during the 1930s and 40s, and this year marks the 75th anniversary of his classic book, A Sand County Almanac. Hard to believe now that it was rejected many times before being finally accepted just one week before his death. Since then, the book has been translated into at least 15 languages and sold well over 2 million copies. Today we visit the land that inspired it by the Wisconsin River in Baraboo, wisconsin, land that was clapped out and abandoned before he bought and regenerated it so beautifully, with his family Also converting the shack from what was a chook shed.
AJ:Our family starts up the road at the centre run by the Aldo Leopold Foundation, honourably marking the place of Aldo's death. We were already feeling the significance and beauty of the area as we pulled up to the centre on a quiet, sun-drenched Wednesday morning, so join us as we go inside and meet staff member Lindsey for a few minutes before heading out to the shack where Aldo would arrive at many of his insights and where I'm joined in conversation about the man, the place and the ongoing legacy by Dr Katie Ross - dear friend, very generous long-time podcast subscriber, former acting CEO of Soils for Life back in Australia, founded by our former Governor-General Michael Jefferies, and now returned local to America's Dairy land in the state of Wisconsin, though it was her first time to the shack too. Lindsey: How are you guys doing?
AJ:Hey, good, how are y ou? Lindsey: Welcome, come in.
Lindsey (staff member):Yeah, have you been here before? AJ: No. Lindsey: Wonderful.
AJ:Yeah.
Lindsey (staff member):Do you know much about Aldo Leopold?
AJ:Well, only through the classic writing.
Lindsey (staff member):Not much about him, Okay well, I'll give you a little rundown on him and his life In the conservation world. He's kind of a celebrity. It's like a very niche group of people, including John Muir, aldo Leopold's kind of, in that group of conservation writers. He's most well known for kind of his accumulation of thinking over the years which he calls the land ethic Just a really great detail about how people should treat the land and how everything's kind of interconnected, and he was kind of very forward thinking for his time. He passed away in 1948 so his ideas were basically unheard of outside of indigenous communities at the time. So yeah, so he really set the groundwork for what conservation is as we know it today, and so his shack and farm is here in Baraboo. His family actually lived in Madison when he was living in Wisconsin and this was kind of their like vacation home in a way they would come here on weekends and spend a lot
Lindsey (staff member):It inspired him to write his most famous book, which is the Sand County Almanac. Highly recommend reading it. If you haven't, and this year is the 75th anniversary of it, it's a special edition. It's $7.50. Just this year only.
Lindsey (staff member):Yeah, and so we've got our exhibit hall just around the corner over there. It goes into detail about his life, has some artifacts from his time in the Forest Service and his time here, and then we've got some trails out here that are totally free to explore. Starts kind of at that pavilion over there. Okay, wraps around the building and goes to his memorial site, the place where he died, helping his neighbor fight a fire on the property. So yeah, a fire.
Lindsey (staff member):Yeah, so this was his neighbor's property. They owned the property down the street, and so he noticed one day there was a fire going on. He ran over to help. He wasn't killed by the fire, he actually had a heart attack. He had some underlying health conditions. But yeah, it goes into a little more detail over there if you'd like to learn more about that and of course we've got the shack kind of the main pilgrimage where people come here is to see the shack and we have a self-guided tour for $10 a person for that one.
AJ:Okay.
Lindsey (staff member):Yeah.
AJ:We'll definitely do that.
Lindsey (staff member):And I'll give you a little booklet. It has a lot of the stops and everything and some information. Out there there's some signs with QR codes you can also scan if you're that kind of person. Yeshe: I'm that kind of person. Lindsey: Perfect, there you go. They're actually pretty cool because there's like videos of his kids and things talking about memories of the show.
AJ:Yeah, yeah, that's the beautiful thing you can do with digital. Lindsey: It is yeah. O livia: How many children did he have?
Lindsey (staff member):He had five, five kids, yeah. The youngest, Estella. She recently passed away, this year at the age of 90, it was 93, I think.
AJ:Wow.
Lindsey (staff member):Yeah. Katie: Are his grandkids still involved with the center. Lindsey: Yeah, yeah. So we actually had Estella's memorial service. The family still comes out here and spends time at the shack for reunions and things, so they just had her memorial service at the shack a couple months ago. Olivia: And did the family establish the foundation? Lindsey: They did so. It was the five kids that started the foundation.
AJ:It's amazing to be at the shack here and just seeing all those images remembering the images of him and family around it, and even these fence posts with the inserts there.
AJ:I mean I don't know when they'll put in or anything, but being next to the shack and having this here. Man! Katie: And seeing the water pump. AJ: yeah, even outside the shack, it just evokes so much of what was daily life here and what it produced, especially as we look out like I'm watching Olivia and Yeshe go through the prairie that they restored and you can just see their heads through the flowers and long grass. They've just gone down to the fruit trees prior to that. Just see the cranes flying overhead, which is a whole other thing they've got going on here. And then, yeah, the forest. Y ou trying to break in?
Katie:I was trying to have a cheeky peek inside.
AJ:So what are you feeling?
Katie:Well, aside from the sun on my face and the wind on my skin and the smell of the Wisconsin River in the background and the cicadas in my ears in the background, the cicadas in my ears it's this sense of deep, deep gratitude to be back in a landscape that is exceptionally dear to me and a little bit sheepish that I don't know as much about Aldo Leopold as, say, david Marsh and other farmers around the world who have been inspired by his work.
Katie:So it is such an absolute treat to be here today and to have walked through the exhibit on his life and to read about the influences of him in his childhood and how his parents fostered his love of nature and just even the simple act of giving him a journal and encouraging him to write down what he saw and to observe.
Katie:And even at that young age he's using this language of a poet and just that history of his life laid out in a simple room showing how he went from being a young child growing up in Iowa to going to the Yale School of Forestry you know, the fifth graduating class from that school of forestry and guided there because of his frustrations of what he saw in Wisconsin with the deforestation and people hunting out of season.
Katie:And there was this beautiful quote in there about how, when he steps into power, he will make sure that he does good by the land, and so for him that meant going to get a degree. And then there's these stories that were presented about how, out in the field, he wanted nothing to do, nothing more than to do what was right by the land and by the ecosystems, but still had this unquestioned kind of actions within him and ways of reading the landscape that he later learned weren't right. So, for example, that story about him removing the mother wolf, killing the mother wolf and her pups, because he thought that was the best way to help conserve the landscape, and later regretting that decision deeply in the sense of remorse, because he realized he hadn't yet developed a rich enough insight of all of the intricacies that are happening within the landscape.
AJ:so yeah, that stood out to me too yeah let's wander around out of the window, yeah, yeah that stood out to me too, and it reminded me of alan savory's feelings about the slaughter of the elephants that he had been responsible for in africa, and I didn't know or couldn't remember that aldo had the same sort of oh what have I done? Experience with that, and feeling like the predators were to be killed off and so the wolf. But yeah, given you mentioned it, do you want to be the one who just recalls briefly the story of what became the title to what we just learned, an Emmy Award winning documentary on him that we'll go and watch on the website at some stage called Green Fire and was the subject of his famous essay.
AJ:Think Like a Mountain, was the story of the wolf encounter. Do you want to do it?
Katie:I don't know if I know it in as much detail to do it justice.
AJ:No, just the perception you got there what landed with you.
Katie:I would love to hear your version of it, but I guess what I'll say is what came to mind is, in that moment he may have had a perception of what was right and wrong in terms of stewarding the landscape.
Katie:But I also wonder if, in that moment there and this is just conjecturing but if there was this sense of fear, because that was a big part of people living on the landscape in Wisconsin you were taught to fear these predators and fear the unknown, and so maybe part of his response was you know, it's never just the training that we received, but it's our emotional response to the landscape.
Katie:And so, who knows, was he acting from a much deeper level. And so something he said about his life journey is that the land ethic is not something he was born with, but it was something that developed over many, many years of living in deep inquiry with the landscape and with his family you know, out here in Birbu and with the shack, and with his family. You know, out here in Baraboo and with the shack and with his grand students and it wasn't just something that he developed in isolation, but it was the camaraderie and the communication and the doing and the action. And so, looking back on that experience with the wolves, he regretted it deeply. But you know, I wonder how his emotional landscape changed as well through getting to know it in a much more intimate way.
AJ:It's kind of a question that it raised for me, but I would love to hear your well, what I recall of the episode in his life was that he got to the wolf that he had hunted and shot before it died and recalls the fierce burning light in its eyes. That's right that then he watched fade away.
Katie:That's right.
AJ:And it was a moment of you know what have I done? There is a force here which reminds me it always reminds me of one of my favourite films Into the Wild, which might come up occasionally on the podcast, and there was a great line in that, one which may have drawn from Eldar, I can't remember, but it's sort of like a force beyond man was the language.
Katie:Which brings to mind that opening preface to is it Marcia Gagliano's Thus Spoke the Plant when she was doing her studies in the Great Bear Reef on this specific type of reef fish, and she would enter the water every single day and observe them, but as well developed a relationship with them where they got to expect her and know her in the water every single day and observed them, but as well developed a relationship with them where they got to expect her and know her in the water.
Katie:But it got to that point in the scientific inquiry, like it so often does, that to make meaning of something, you have to capture it and kill it and dissect it to really know what's the impact of reef degradation on this fish, for example. And that morning, when it got to that time in her research, she got into the water and not a single fish was to be found and she got out of the water, was trying to process what was happening and decided that she would re-enter because she felt this allegiance to the scientific process. And when she re-entered the water, the fish were there again, almost communicating. We understand what you are about to do and this is how we can communicate that to you and that we are giving you permission to do what you need to do. It's that idea of those moments in life when you realize there is more intelligence there, an energy force there, or the light in the wolf's eyes, whatever it might be, that brings a bit of humility and reverence and awe and respect.
AJ:Yeah, humility and reverence and awe and respect, yeah, well, the other thing it does for me is, you know, I said force beyond man and I can't write the exact words where it's almost like force beyond what we have become accustomed to thinking of ourselves. But if I've been hearing and witnessing anything in my experiences through this podcast and around it, it's that that force, I mean, if we're nature too, that force is in us, so if it's not beyond us at all and in fact that's something of what Aldo was saying a light beyond a light of existence, maybe that is beyond what he had been taught to believe and and had realized, which I think is true, I mean not knowing, you know, this just inspires more looking into the legacy, doesn't it? But to have gone on with such education and in such a way that you know, back in thirties and forties is is already onto systems, thinking, ethos and and empowered facilitation and everything that there was an understanding even how education would work then, but how people are and how we learn and what we're capable of, and and in fact there are quotes in there too, aren't there Really eloquent quotes about once there's a land ethic in people, once we understand that kinship, the rest takes care of itself, type of thing. That was all there. So he seemed to see that spirit in people out of these experiences that he had had and, of course, the family's gone on with it.
AJ:So some of the stuff that I'm just learning here as well, the extent to which it's been going on with, like there was a foundation set up only in 1982, I think got their first staff member in 1995, which is relevant, right, it's how long we persist and commit to something that's worthwhile. And then the new the centre, in 2007 only, and now, on top of all the conservation programs that continued here and the land work, there's education and fellowships and myriad other aspects of you know, the bird watching and whatever of what happens here, bringing more and more people into certainly the legacy, but the land ethic, that famous precept that he was all about for him, yeah, I suppose that was another insight for me coming here today was the way that the staff member at the front was explaining it to us, how this location is almost a mecca for individuals who have worked in the space of conservation and are so influenced by his work.
Katie:And, you know, people from all across the world come here to experience and see the landscape that he worked on, to learn from and to restore, and it just again makes me curious what has been his impact across the world and that power of one person's ability to communicate what it is that they believe in, and not necessarily trying to convince or to conjole um, but to just share his words in the most beautiful, authentic way and then see how that lands with everyone else and practice it yes so it started with getting this in 1935 a clapped out, barren piece of land that had been abandoned, so stolen yeah
AJ:extracted left yep, which you know, reminds me of some other stories too that are featured on the podcaster. That's in some cases the only way people could get land. But they were living in Madison. The family was living in Madison, having spent a bucket of time in New Mexico, where Aldo's wife lived too, but his first forestry appointment was there gets this piece of land and goes about it from 1935. And then the essays. Well, the essays had started, but they keep coming on the back of the practice, which then leads to the famous book Sankani Almanac.
Katie:And that funny anecdote about the shack not being what the family expected at all, especially Estella, the wife, wasn't it? That's right.
AJ:It's like you've bought us a piece of land $8 an acre that is crapped out, with a little wooden shack, which is right next to us now, which now holds all kinds of mystique. But I have imagined especially an australian standing here imagining it with snow everywhere going far out. That's impressive you'll just have to return in december we'll see about that, probably not in the tent, it's fair to say but I would love to hear how this experience is for you.
Katie:You know traveling so far and you've been in the us for so long and you've seen so much diversity across the us know what has this experience been like in relation to the experiences that you've had?
AJ:Well, perhaps that's worth referencing New Mexico then, because that was significant for us and there were a few podcasts that went out from there. But, in keeping with everything on this podcast there'll be a dozen conversations of substance with for every one episode and you just it's like any record of a musician, it's a snapshot in time, it's part of what you're going through, and then you try and express it a bit more with the next one, yeah, which is, you know, it's relevant to I don't know ongoing thoughts I have about how best to to express this stuff. But new New Mexico was significant in many ways. And to hear that not only was he assigned there as a young guy, but then he was figurative in the setting up of, I believe, the country's first protected wilderness area and how do you pronounce it? The gila, gila, gila wilderness area in new mexico, and that he already had that ability to influence in a formal way like it was in within four years of making his petitions for that to occur.
AJ:But it had happened and, notwithstanding his errors and stuff, and even in conventional terms, there were stories about him having butchered an expedition, um, but then really committed to making good on it, got mentorship, next one, nailed it and then started to get promoted and so forth. But then what were you saying about, or was olivia saying about, this being the second, only the second, prairie restoration of its kind in the country, the first being his experiments at the university in Wisconsin, in Madison, wisconsin. So he was figurative to both those things, which then talks to a level of A, what you said, a commitment of one person. Of course you're not doing it by yourself, but but your commitment is a, is a keystone aspect of it. And then b, that this was true in the 30s and 40s. Sam county almanac comes out in 48. He dies before it comes out, only just gets the manuscript off, dies of a heart attack.
AJ:We learned for the first time helping a friend fight a fire at 61 years of age just gets the book out, that becomes world-changing in itself and, yeah, the legacy goes on and, yeah, we can wonder about how big maybe they've got some idea with their ongoing programs and and webinars and stuff what sort of numbers they get.
AJ:But but you can only imagine. So to your question in a way, like again, as a non-farmer. Non, I mean, yeah, I care for stuff and I do it. I've got a thing going on at our strata complex. Even we, we're round up, stop being sprayed and and the bees are coming back and stuff.
AJ:You do your bit, but not I'm not planting 3 000 trees, what they do a summer yeah, 3 000 a year yeah, there's a summer here and you know, going through periods where 90 die off because such is the degradation, and then the winds and everything on that, but for all that to be affected in all the other ways you're talking about, just at the level of spirit and ethos, land ethic and everything I do dedicated to that in my way. So it was true, this is one of the places that, before we left Australia, I looked up and thought when is it? I don't even know, I can't even remember Of course Wisconsin.
Katie:where the bloody hell are you? Sand County?
AJ:yeah, yeah. And then to approach the shack, even to approach the country, and then to hear the sounds and feel the feeling felt significant. I mean it's so rich Grass is all around us now, hip high, and the other ones at the prairie head high, to say nothing of the forest in the river, as you alluded to. And then to be here and to have old footage in my head rolling of aldo around here, imagining the family over the generations, since too, and now imagining it when they got here, with nothing there, and feeling partly feeling like why are we here?
Katie:but then buying into a vision and making it happen and then the impact of raising a family well out here and the five children who went on to have incredible, powerful careers in their own right, contributing to this lived version of the land ethic and integrating that into the sciences and their various fields.
AJ:No, exactly Katie, the fact that I think all five went on to do groundbreaking conservation work in some way how does that happen? Perhaps it speaks to the way of the education ran that it's just, it's not forcing people into anything.
AJ:It's because we know where that goes with kids. The fact that it was just it's not forcing people into anything it's because we know where that goes with kids exactly like that it was, so the opposite of that makes you wonder. There's clearly more stories. Maybe the film shows some part of it, but even in the absence, like there are others, I suppose that I like a gregory bates and which goes back to how we met. Even that I know more about that I've read more of, but this was always prominent too. But even so, then, knowing others, rationally speaking more, there's something about this that means a heck of a lot to be at.
AJ:I think yeah, and I guess as much because it's a land. Well, it's what I've said actually about region ag and so forth in general. Well, it's what I've said actually about regen ag and so forth. In general, it's a visceral, felt representation of the thinking that longevity?
AJ:you know that it's been going on for 80 years plus longer, nearly 90 years, yeah yeah and yeah, we stand here and breathe and feel it, as opposed to just having it live in a book. But the two together, which of course is more than two, it's his teaching and everything else, but by way of saying the thinking and the abstraction in a good way, obviously off the land with the land makes a powerful combination, I think. Really important If we're to think differently which a lot of the emphasis from him was as well.
Katie:One of the quotes that really jumped out at me in the first spin-through of the room was something about I'm ditching convention.
Katie:Did you catch that one? ANo, I don't think I did.
Katie:It was right at the beginning something about how yep, we will all be better off if we ditch convention there you go yeah, recognizing the impact of perhaps unconsciously absorbing practices and behaviors and patterns that don't serve us well in terms of, especially, how we relate to the landscape. You know he could see that as a little young pup it's very interesting because it was a.
AJ:It was a student who reflected back to him an unconscious righteousness. Perhaps we could say yeah, in saying it might be worth acknowledging the blood on your hands yeah yeah, you didn't come there from nowhere yes, and that's so important to always remember.
Katie:It's similar to what we've been talking about over the past couple of days.
Katie:Maybe is that we are always learning, we're always inquiring.
Katie:There's always going to be blind spots and biases and assumptions that we are not aware of, but that's the brilliant thing about doing inquiry together is because people can point that out to us, and I've been so appreciative even of you know the multiple times you've helped do that for me in conversation and it's. It actually is a gift to have a relationship with people where you feel comfortable helping them to see what they might not be able to see, because sometimes that can be challenging, perhaps, to you know, trigger emotion. But all those response again was beautiful to say thank you to this student. You know that's the most valuable piece of feedback I received and I wish other people would feel more comfortable giving me that, that level and that quality of feedback right on, which says something about the professor who can say that which reminds me of the professor I used to know I was telling you, frank fisher, who had the same ability and wrote a piece called from being precious to precious being all about it to develop some sense of robustness but also the kindness.
AJ:So just meeting a bit, meeting each other there, stay kind but get a bit of thick skin on you yeah and the humility, obviously, to be able to hear it, accept it and change. But also to your previous point, like don't adhere to convention, but don't what's the word judge it, but I'm thinking a stronger word condemn it yeah because you've come from it too.
Katie:Exactly yeah.
AJ:With the good stuff that came out of there too, there's some of the paradox of life, but there it is, and I think in there is some of what I'm talking about, where kindness meets robust in terms of broader society, where you can have those conversations with people you might be really different with, or just family let's face it but in a way that can engender actually reaching each other, rather than me coming in and appearing to be.
AJ:I'll tell you how it is, because I've been in this space for 20 years and you know and you need to a, b or c, yeah it's.
Katie:It's always easy to fall into the hope that comes with the next great idea, the grand new theory, the next big movement that will save us space or regen space, because, um, sometimes what you see can be exceptionally confronting and draining. But yeah, it was, um, in one of our conversations yesterday, that reminder of yours to be wary of that, not necessarily false gold, but that place of standing uncertainty when actually we swim in the sea of uncertainty. Look at this little nest, bird's nest.
AJ:Yeah, amazing, hey. So this is just under the sort of side structure to the main area.
Katie:I wonder if there's any eggs in it.
AJ:We haven't been attacked by mum, so perhaps not he's still trying to break into side windows.
Katie:One can live in hope yeah, back out into the wind and that was another very inspiring thing to see was all of the books and the cards that were available within the alder leopold center made from the pine trees harvested off the land and to take this resource that they have been working to steward for so long but then put into practice that natural sense of harvesting and stewardship and management. But I do feel like we should say that in Wisconsin, and particularly the Menominee tribe has one of the world's foremost forestry management systems Protecting this landscape. You walk into it and you wouldn't realize that it's a forestry system. It feels like this majestic, ancient, first-growth forest but yet they can produce more wood from that than regular forestry or perhaps more western forestry systems.
AJ:Which is so interesting because this is some of the stories. You learn that the productivity of some of these systems eclipsed what was happening in Europe at the time and certainly then more supplanted it. Yes, yeah, and that's only increasingly true, notwithstanding the loading up of the drugs, the chemical inputs. That's interesting to hear that. And also it occurred to you, right, that in the stories we saw back at the centre, for all we loved it, did we see anything about First Nations?
Katie:I didn't see anything about First Nations in the centre, but in the tour book, the self-guided tour book, there is a recognition of the traditional owners, and you know the the pain of respects. But, um, I didn't see an explanation of partnerships, and you know that, doesn't? That's not to say that it doesn't exist. It might be there be interesting but they did mention that just where we are, near baraboo, is one of the most sacred locations for the Ho-Chunk Nation in Wisconsin, and we can actually see it. It's just over there on the horizon.
AJ:So over the prairie I've taken a photo of. Yep. Really Yep, so tell us about that.
Katie:So that is a land formation between where we are and Devil's Lake, which is one of the deepest lakes in Wisconsin, and just near here there used to be ammunitions manufacturing industry. I think it closed down, maybe 20 years ago I'd have to double check but that land has since been handed back to the Ho-Chunk Nation and they're in the process of reclaiming it and regenerating it, and it's one of their most sacred sites.
AJ:And they're neighbours.
Katie:Neighbours? Yeah, so one could imagine there must have been interactions, relationships, hopefully respect.
AJ:I mean even the staffer we met in there today. Hi, lindsay, if you happen to listen to this, she said something like he was one of the only first people, I think she said aside from first nations, who would talk in such a way. So it's certainly it's in there, at least in the front of house like that, yeah, but what's interesting is the number.
Katie:So when I was doing doing my PhD into education and what kind of education we need in the world today, every philosopher that I went down a rabbit hole into all of their students would say my philosopher was the first person to point out the logic of separation within Western society's way of making meaning. You know, it was John Dewey. No, no, it was Paulo Freire. No, no, it was Fritjof Capra. No, no, it was Basarab Mikulescu. And so I heard her say that and I thought, yes, that's a beautiful thing to say, and there are so many people across the world who have been saying those things, in addition to indigenous societies. And it's almost this question of how do we find ways for people who are saying the same thing to recognize that they're not alone, that there's um but nor are they a hero.
Katie:Yes, exactly that. Everybody is a hero. Everybody is their own hero.
AJ:Together because we're feeding off each other anyway, it's absurdity, I mean, it's the whole. I discovered America or Australia or whatever. I discovered the West. These are the stories. It's absurd, which is great, because then it's like so, if hero is a way to loneliness, if that's synonymous, then yeah, let's have the other. Yeah, yeah, we'll go on with that, maybe another time, okay.
Katie:Do we have time to walk down to the river?
AJ:100%.
Katie:Yes.
AJ:That was Dr Katie Ross at Aldo Leopold Shack in Baraboo, wisconsin, on the 75th birthday of a Sand County Almanac, the 100th birthday of the Gila Wilderness Area in New Mexico and Katie's birthday too. In celebration of them all, see various links in the show notes and a few photos on the website, with more, as always, for subscribing members on Patreon. That's with great thanks of, of course, to all you generous supporting listeners for making this episode possible. If you'd like to join us, just head to the website or the show notes and follow the prompts. Thank you, and thanks too for sharing the podcast when you can with friends and colleagues.
AJ:We ended our visit at the memorial site where Aldo died. The wind had died right down, leaving the beautiful sounds of living earth adorning a sense of some sadness and peace. What beautiful gifts here at the hands of generations of Leopolds and friends. It reminded me of last week's episode with Cole Mannix too, when he said towards the end on what's worth doing in life, what's the work you want to die in? And, as it happens, fred Provenza later shared with me that he had a colleague at Utah State Uni who used to be a PhD student of Aldo's. Ripples, Fred said. You can find out more about that legacy too, of the late Allen Stokes at the Stokes Nature Centre in Utah. The music you're hearing is Regeneration by Amelia Barden and, at the top, Green Shoots by the Nomadics. My name's Anthony James. Thanks for listening.
Katie:One, two, three, four, five How's that? AJ: Very cool. Katie"That's what we're aiming for here.
