The RegenNarration Podcast
The RegenNarration podcast features the stories of a generation that is changing the story, enabling the regeneration of life on this planet. It’s ad-free, freely available and entirely listener-supported. You'll hear from high profile and grass-roots leaders from around Australia and the world, on how they're changing the stories we live by, and the systems we create in their mold. Along with often very personal tales of how they themselves are changing, in the places they call home. With award-winning host, Anthony James.
The RegenNarration Podcast
225 Excerpt. All Roads to a Just & Equitable Future Run Through Rural America, with Chloe Maxmin
The last 20 minutes or so of my conversation in episode 225 with Maine’s youngest ever female senator, Chloe Maxmin, has stayed with me since its release. And I’ve heard from a few of you saying similar. So in the interest of not letting it be too ephemeral with the passing podcast feed, this excerpt from that episode features that 20 minutes.
We unpack the inspiring and transformative journey behind "Dirt Road Revival," a book that has sparked change in rural organising across the U.S. Chloe shares her experience in turning years of voice memos into a powerful narrative that has not only resonated deeply with rural communities but also paved the way for Dirtroad Organizing, a non-profit dedicated to training and empowering rural candidates. Already, 38 alumni are running at this coming election.
We go on to compare notes on some of my impressions while travelling the country (is it so divided after all?), wonder if there might be a Dirtroad Media, and imagine this election and beyond.
If you’ve come here first, tune into the full episode 225, ‘Democracy on the Rise – in the US?’. You’ll find a few links in the show notes there too, along with a transcript, and a few photos on the episode website, with more on Patreon for subscribing members.
Title slide image: Chloe during the Dirtroad Organising program (pic: from their website).
Music:
Regeneration, by Amelia Barden, from Regenerating Australia.
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I mean, now I realize there's this vibrant network of rural folks doing this work, but I was not connected into that world. Um, you know, and we thought, okay, we learned a lot, like we did some cool things and you know well, maybe we'll just turn this into a book and use it as an organizing tool and see what happens. So we wrote Dirt Road Revival, kind of based on all of our years of voice memos mostly.
Speaker 2:Really Wow.
Speaker 1:And the book just became like a bit of a feels, like a. Yeah, a lot of people read the book. We were like that's wild. You know, people know of the book. People are like, oh my gosh, someone recommended your book to me and that's very, it's very, very cool for us and it was so deeply unexpected. We never expect success. We just kind of plod along doing what we think is the next right move. Yeah, the book just tells our stories and tries to lay out a more positive roadmap for how we can kind of dig into rural organizing work so at what stage did you think about literally setting up Dirt Road Organizing as a training body of sorts?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, after the book came out, we were hearing from people across the country, you know, who are reading it, who are resonating with it, who were experiencing the exact same dynamics in their community, and we just kind of realized that this was. You know, even though every rural community is unique, that the way that people describe their experience organizing or running for office in rural spaces is almost verbatim. So it just seems if there was space for an organization that just focused on training and supporting rural folks who are organizing staffing campaigns or running for office. So, as far as I know, we're the only national training program for rural candidates and we work with lots of state partners. To you know, when we have overlap on the folks that we're working with and and we've just finished our, we're in our first election year. So we finished our first year of programming and supporting our folks as they head towards November.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so how many cohorts have been through? It's a four month program, right?
Speaker 1:It's a four month program. Oh my gosh, you did your research. Yeah, it's a four month program. We've done three cohorts. We have we'll have over 70 alums from 29 states and we have 38 people running for office this year, just in our first year. So, and they're all such wonderful people too, just so kind and grounded and lovely and just like, so aligned with everything you and I are talking about, about wanting to represent their communities and, you know, heal the divides and use their campaign as a way to just create a different story in their community.
Speaker 2:Demographically? How did they turn up? How to age backgrounds? Do you notice particular threads?
Speaker 1:Not really. We got, yeah, it's quite a diverse group of folks. So, um, yeah, we got, yeah, it's quite a diverse group of folks. So, um, yeah, we got younger folks and older folks, people of different skin colors, it's gender too gender identity, yeah, um yeah, gender identity and sex. So it's very, yeah, we're very proud of it.
Speaker 2:What do you know? Yeah, and did you say how many states? 29 states 29 states, so more than half states already in such a short time. Are they all running as Democrats?
Speaker 1:They're not all running as Democrats. No, we have some independents. I forget the exact number. We're a non-partisan organization, so we don't accept folks based on the party that they're running on. We ask folks to agree to abide by our values of Dirt Road Organizing, which really center around um rural resilience, racial equity and social justice yeah, and so some are standing as democrats, some as independents. Yeah, republican um, we don't have any republicans this cycle. But you know, again it's just about, we're very values based, so um, it's not to say it can't be yes, we don't even like look up what party people are from.
Speaker 1:We're just, we're just really focused on the values yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 2:It's just another part of the dynamic that's interesting to me, because we don't have to. It's all independent in Australia there's no, I mean, some people are interested in reforming the parties, and that's great indeed. It's been said that if the parties come on with this thing, awesome, everybody wins um. But if they don't, then it looks like more independence.
Speaker 2:It is that that's in an Australian context, with the different voting system and so forth right but here I mean, I know, like we said, more people are working to change the voting system too, but it's a point of interest to me to see which parties might be opening up or receiving a critical mass of people that are going to change it in these ways, yes, and almost save them from themselves. I don't know if it's that far, but yeah, in australia.
Speaker 1:It feels like that yes, yeah, and in the um I forget the exact statistic, but in the us, you know, most young folks and veterans enroll as independents when they when they go to vote. So I think there's there is a large disaffection from our, our two main political parties, and for good, good reason. But again, I think it's like the system we're stuck with, you know, and so it's about how we need all theories of change. You know the the folks who are trying to to create stronger third parties, and we need the folks who are trying to reform the existing strong party institutions. So it's just, my lane is the reforming institutions.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so I'm curious then, over the four months, what's the gist of what you work through? You meet up on occasion, but it's mostly online, as I understand, and how does it play out? And how are people changed like? What have you observed so far?
Speaker 1:yeah, I mean, you know, one of the biggest uh things that we hear from our candidates is that and everyone who kind of joins our program is just the isolation that they feel doing organizing and campaign work in rural communities. They feel very alone. There's not a lot of organizing infrastructure. You know, oftentimes folks are in districts that are very rural or very red and they don't receive. You know there's limited resources in the world so they just don't receive some of those limited resources because of their context, and so a primary goal of our cohort program is to create community. So our curriculum is very much based around connecting, bringing everyone together, creating a sense of connection and real community, and our candidates come together in person at the end of their four months to really increase their bonding is that the one time you meet in person?
Speaker 1:yes, that's the one time in person, but also in addition to our community building, they also have access to unlimited one-on-ones with our staff so they can kind of really get into the nitty gritty of their work and their brainstorming and what they're trying to do and any challenges they're facing. And they also have weekly training from rural experts across the country on different hard skills. So like what does rural GOTV look like? Or rural field planning, what does self-care look like while you're running? What's rural messaging look like? So they get kind of the traditional campaign skills, but from that rural perspective which is missing in a lot of spaces because it's just its own thing.
Speaker 2:It needs its own space I'm really curious in how much practice people need from when they come in on the listening piece, because this isn't necessarily easy if you, if your body's triggering yeah, when your guts trigger definitely like I even experienced sometimes.
Speaker 2:So I say I even like I've practiced it for a bunch of years now, like a lot, and most of the time I can be genuinely, even emotioned, and genuinely able to express my care and interest in people. Sometimes I still feel the guts churn at some things. I hear, yeah, and you just you don't want that to rule right. So, yeah, I mean, you're noted, but you still want to be present, you want to? Be, beyond your own precious little you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, given that it's not the culture we're in like, this is a change of culture.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:One that's being welcomed by people, which says something.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But how much work do people find they need to do when you meet them at the gate?
Speaker 1:on that crucial piece yeah, I mean, I think people find our program because they're looking to do it in a little bit of a different way or having or just looking for different forms of support to do it their rural way. So, um, you know there's yeah, I just I really want to note, like make it so clear that they're amazing state-based organizations that do rural work. But, um, we just kind of focus on that national cohesion and kind of bringing folks together across the states to see that they're not alone and that there's someone on the other side of the country experiencing the same thing that they are. But it's so folks come in with just, I think, that challenge of like how do I do this type of canvassing? And it's everyone's political issues these days are so personal and like a really deep way, and so it's.
Speaker 1:It is very triggering oftentimes to have conversations with voters. So you know, how do we do that work and why is it? Why is it important to do that work? You know, why are we even talking about it before we even talk about how to do it? And we got some feedback from one of our cohort members the other day who said, you know, she's approaching canvassing in such a different way now and she smiles more and she cares more, just trying to infuse that humanity in it a little bit. And it's part of our eligibility criteria for our training program as well that folks have to be committed to canvassing and making space for everybody in their campaign, not just the folks that agree with them. So I think we kind of attract people who are ready to do the work yeah, yeah, no doubt is there, I don't know, do you even role play it?
Speaker 2:I'm curious is there a point of workshopping that listening piece?
Speaker 1:yeah, we, yeah, we do a lot of trainings where we um, where we do role plays and it's so.
Speaker 1:It's always so interesting to me because people are really nervous to do the role plays, you know, but we have like scripts for them, you know. So you know, but we have one person inhabit the role of the voter and then the other person is the canvasser, and I'm always so shocked at how well people inhabit the role of the voter. It almost feels like I'm listening to an actual conversation with a Republican or independent voter and it's like this idea that we're not that far apart. You've got in the mind space. There's logic like everything you're saying make is making sense, it's just from a really different perspective. So I always, I always remark on that, like how easy it is for us to understand the other side when we try. But then the canvasser as well, almost universally they report back.
Speaker 1:You know, I had a really hard time not reacting or I had a really hard time just listening and not thinking about the next thing that I was going to say. So, those, so those are the two themes that come out of it which I think are really important. I always talk about this form of canvassing as democracy therapy. You are there to listen to people, to hear their stories and to represent that to whatever organization you're going back to.
Speaker 2:I love that. That's really good. It's very interesting. You said something along the lines of not as divided as we thought we were, because this is the other big thread yeah that we've observed across the country and in some ways I'm like is this my own? Diluted little small sample size type thing? Dilute a little small sample size type thing.
Speaker 2:But to hear again on the new york times podcast on the runner yeah, who we should say, featured one of your alumni, sarah kiesky kiesky, in wisconsin, yeah, who's running, which was a terrific program too, but in another program, yeah, on the braver angels convention. This was interesting, which was also in Wisconsin, so much seems to happen in Wisconsin.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wisconsin, there's a lot going on in Wisconsin.
Speaker 2:A lot going on in Wisconsin yeah. They spent three days at this convention, which is deliberately set up to help bridge divides and enable people to talk, even amongst families who vote Republican and Democrat and Independent, whatever. So there were all tribes and colors represented, politically speaking, and at the end of it the host says so. After three days of speaking with people of all different stripes here, we've been hearing a lot of the same stuff from everybody yeah so his concluding words were something like so are we as divided as we're told?
Speaker 2:we are yeah or are we not being heard? That just landed in the car as we were traveling. Yeah, because we looked at each other and going. That's our experience.
Speaker 1:Maybe we're not just getting a diluted, small sample size yeah, definitely and that's some of yours too yeah, I mean, I think I think that's so true. I don't think we're as far apart as we think we are, but I think this that the forces that tell us that we are divided just get stronger and stronger. So it requires more and more work to peel back the layers. Um, you know, I felt it during my time in the legislature between the campaigns, and I see it continuing now that, like we were talking about, the polarization on the surface does seem to be more extreme. You know it's harder for someone for you know you knock on a Republican door and it's harder for someone to say, yes, I'm going to talk to a Democrat, but if you can have that conversation, I think it is true that we have more in common than we think.
Speaker 1:I think the right has successfully wielded some key issues that have created really stark divides and really put people's lives in danger and created a tremendous amount of violence around trans issues and abortion, for example, and I think that those have. I don't know just I learned so much listening to Bill's conversations now to kind of still keep my ear to the ground, because you know he knocks on a lot of Republican doors, and just so interesting how those lightning rod issues are so effective, you know, and people are. Those are issues where there are extreme dichotomies and people are voting along those lines and so Immigration too right.
Speaker 2:This is where we related this to yes immigration as well 100%.
Speaker 1:So Bill and I talk a lot. If people are focused on those issues. How do you be like? You know I hear you. This is where I stand, but also here are the other things that I'm working on. That impact like actually impact our community in a day to day way, like your property taxes. Is your food tainted with PFAS? Are schools well funded? Can teachers move here to teach our children? Do we have adequate medical care in our community or are our EMTs being paid enough? Are our EMTs being paid enough? The answer to most of those questions is no.
Speaker 1:You know, and so it's like how do we kind of do the yes and when we see that happening?
Speaker 2:It's interesting to hear that there's a bit of. There is a bit of proactive at times, holding up to the light the common ground.
Speaker 1:Yes, Because it's either taken for granted or not recognized enough right yeah, so that's interesting, definitely yeah I think as well, we are really trained that the this idea of common ground means that, oh, we appear to be different, but actually we agree on everything together. But it's maybe that's the theme of our conversation. It's much more nuanced than that. Like you might disagree on 90 of issues with someone, but but you find that 10% where you overlap and you're like this is cool, this is meaningful, that we overlap here and then you can build it. It's just like how you make a friend. You don't make a friend by being like I don't like the same TV shows as you. It's like okay, we went to the same high school. Like we can talk about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, we've had some experiences like this. I told you we met a woman wearing a T-shirt with a gun on it saying may the force be with you. Hazardous, guess at which way she was voting? Yeah, but they were doing light plane restoration Hello, if you're listening. Yeah, we remember you guys well. Light plane restoration in a small town in the Midwest. Yeah, and they invited us in and our boy was playing with their girl. It was wonderful. Yeah, and again it's.
Speaker 2:Our experience is welcoming and and a spirit of humanity and generosity yeah it's just a nice way to connect with, because and I'm saying this as someone who couldn't do this right myself- as a younger guy it's a nicer way to connect with people than what I used to be able to do.
Speaker 2:I used to travel a lot, but in a way that avoided people wherever I could, and this podcast experience was an experiment. Was that shift? I'm going to go out and learn about my country, and now this one, through the people, and could not have imagined the gifts in that, notwithstanding differences. But let there not be um animosity yes and then wow the gifts that can come.
Speaker 2:I mean, if people's generosity is what we found anyway, if people's generosity is unencumbered, at least to the point and I know there have been experiments in this too at least to the point where then your relationship and your trust is built and then you can handle I'm a this or I'm a that, or you're inclined right to go there seeing that play out. It's been amazing to observe that in this country.
Speaker 2:I wonder too, like when you say those forces that would divide get stronger. We saw in that last australian election the murdoch media that you have over here too, of course, went the total muckrake stone throw thing that they do on those independents and didn't work. It gave us the impression that when you connect with people at real level in the ways we're talking about, that, the abstract power is weakened. Is that some of what you are imagining might be true here too?
Speaker 1:I hope so, and I think there's definitely cases where that's true. I think I think of it more as like it's more of a balance. You know, I don't know necessarily if it's weakened, but I think there's another, there's something else to kind of bounce off of it or compare it to. Um, you know, I think, especially in rural areas, like the power of fox news is so intense, so intense, and I and I don't feel like anything can counteract that, except for a face-to-face conversation. But it might be. That face-to-face conversation is, you know, someone's going to vote for their, for a down ballot, like progressive state legislator, but they might also vote for Trump. So I think it's about creating more stories and different narratives.
Speaker 1:I remember one time in one of my races I can't remember which one, I think it was in 2020, but I'd always see Fox News playing in the background in people's houses. And one day I was canvassing and everyone was talking to me about what's happening in Seattle. What's happening in Seattle? I was like what is? I don't know what happened. What's happening in Seattle? So you know, I go on my, I go on New York times and Washington post and like my normal media outlets, and there's nothing about Seattle.
Speaker 1:And then I went on to Fox news, which I always read just to get the full thing. You know, I go on to Fox News and it's like all about the protests in Seattle and it's just one of those days where I was like, wow, you know, just like I didn't even know, there was like a whole, a whole conversation happening. You know, in people's homes that I didn't even have access to that day because I hadn't read Fox News that morning. So, um, it always really stuck with me as an anecdotal example of how powerful some of these media forces are.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so true, and it does make me think about the other media forces, like I've seen some independent media coming up in the US and in Australia. Humble podcast here too, of course, part of that, but also co-op media, and often with journos who've just been discarded by collapsing mainstream or even public radio and other media outlets, that they're getting together and finding their own way at grassroots level and it's, it seems to be coming on pretty strongly yeah it makes me wonder if there's a commensurate media that arises out of this grassroots way of being and organizing yeah, I hope so dirt road media yeah I also love like.
Speaker 1:We're in knox county right now. But in Lincoln County, where I grew up, there's a Lincoln County News every week and you know it's just like an amazing local paper. You know everyone reads it. It's an amazing form of communication. It's like a very vibrant, locally owned. Yeah, it's awesome. Everyone gets it delivered to their house. So, you know, for us, while we're campaigning, it's an amazing way to kind of communicate our values. Do letters to the editor, um, and also such a good counterbalance to some of the very politically divisive media that we have, because it's it's a homegrown newspaper, like it's. There's nothing too political going on.
Speaker 2:I've seen this around the country too. Yeah, livingston enterprise was a was probably my first real glimpse, at one directly. That's still going well yeah and doing, doing it well it's so yeah, and trusted it's trusted and looked to right.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, some people will be like you know the lincoln county news is boring, but I don't think that's true at all. It's just like a living document of what's happening in our community and it really unites people. And not all rural communities have that, but I think it's um in so many rural spaces. It's a unique quality that our local newspaper still has some, some meaning.
Speaker 2:So how do you feel about this coming election right now, as we sit?
Speaker 1:I'm excited for all the Dirt Road candidates, so that's very exciting for us just knowing that they're all out there running and doing the hard work. And that's kind of where I have. My focus, you know, is just supporting them and helping them. My theory of change really revolves around supporting down-ballot folks and having that grassroots organizing trickle up to the higher races rather than the other way around. So yeah, that's kind of where my head is at.
Speaker 2:That's brilliant, Chloe Jeez. It's been so good talking to you. I feel like we could go on with so many of the nuances in this, but it's just been brilliant speaking with you. Thanks a lot for spending the time.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Take us out with a sense of. Do you even venture to imagine? I mean, I'll tell you the woman that godmother of the independence movement in Australia. She said imagine if in 10 years we could transform Australian politics, and that was prior to that election which went a long way towards it. Do you venture to look? 10 years?
Speaker 1:and imagine. I mean, I think I, you know my vision is that rural politics is really vibrant and filled with vibrant and diverse discussion and vibrant and diverse candidates that were starting to turn the tide in rural communities that have gone so far to the right in such a short amount of time and starting to to bring that back into a more representative place, and then the effects of that are going to be more representative state legislators, legislatures and a more representative congress. So to me, all roads to a just and equitable future run through rural America. So it'd be nice, the dream dream. That won't happen because this is a multi-decade, multi-cycle challenge. But you know it's just having Dirt Road candidates, like changing the stories all over the country.
Speaker 2:Full stop. Yes, thanks, chloe.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:That was Chloe Maxman, co-founder of Dirt Road, organising as usual. You'll see links in the show notes and a few photos on the website, with more for subscribing members on Patreon. That's with great thanks for making this episode possible. If you'd like to join us, I'd love it. Just head to the website or the show notes and follow the prompts. Thanks, too, for sharing the podcast wherever you can Next up.
Speaker 2:Chloe's partner, bill, joins us for a walk and talk around the farm while we learn about his amazing story as an independent representative. And, fyi, the film Rural Runners is on one last national tour in these couple of weeks in partnership with Patagonia. It'll also feature panel conversations with Chloe Canyon and some of the local candidates that have come through the Dirt Road program. You'll find screening dates in the show notes too, and if you're within shot of the West Virginia screening on the 13th of October, we'll see you there. Oh, and another surprise for Chloe Just after leaving Chloe and Bill's place, we stopped about five miles up the road at the famed Beth's Farm Market. I pulled out the copy of Dirt Road Revival that Chloe had gifted me, and the guy in the car next to me winds down his window and says that's a great book. I've got it at home too. The music you're hearing is Regeneration by Amelia Barden and, at the top, green Shoots by the Nomadics. My name's Anthony James. Thanks for listening. Thank you you.
