The RegenNarration Podcast
The RegenNarration podcast features the stories of a generation that is changing the story, enabling the regeneration of life on this planet. It’s ad-free, freely available and entirely listener-supported. You'll hear from high profile and grass-roots leaders from around Australia and the world, on how they're changing the stories we live by, and the systems we create in their mold. Along with often very personal tales of how they themselves are changing, in the places they call home. With award-winning host, Anthony James.
The RegenNarration Podcast
232. Dirtroad Debrief: Chloe Maxmin on the ‘Dirtroad candidate’ successes & what comes next?
This week we’re back with Chloe Maxmin, for a debrief that has been eagerly awaited – by me and many of you, I know – on how the Dirtroad candidates went at the recent US elections, and where to from here.
For those who didn’t catch Chloe in episode 225 last month, from up at the farm in Maine, Chloe became the first Democrat ever to represent Maine House District 88, and the youngest member of the 129th Maine Legislature. Two years later, she’d become the youngest female state senator in Maine's history. And all on the back of engaging with her community directly and in ways that transcended the partisan politics so many of us have had enough of. Then, at still just 30 years of age, Chloe co-founded a non-profit that trains others in how to run for office in this way called Dirtroad Organizing.
In just 18 months, this resulted in 38 alumni running at the recent election. So, how did they go (including Lucia and Maria from episode 228), how did her partner (from episode 226), incumbent independent Bill Pluecker go, what does it all mean, and what comes next?
We talk about the spectrum of emotions since the election, the successes of the ‘Dirtroad candidates’, making sense of people voting for those candidates and Trump, whether there are bigger shifts taking place with the 2-party system, how much this was a gender election, whether the US is as divided as it’s said to be, opportunities for regenerative agriculture with the coming administration, issues with the integrity of the election, a burgeoning ‘Dirtroad media’, what comes next for Dirtroad Organizing, and of course music.
This episode has chapter markers and a transcript (available on most apps now too). The transcript is AI generated and imperfect, but hopefully provides greater access for those who need or like to read.
Recorded 22 November 2024.
Title slide: Chloe Maxmin.
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Music:
Regeneration, by Amelia Barden, from Regenerating Australia.
Intro music by Jeremiah Johnson.
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The only thing that breaks through the capture of our media on either side is a face-to-face conversation, whether that's you're watching CNN all the time and then shocked that Trump won and you haven't talked to a Trump voter, or if it's you're watching Fox News all the time and a Democrat hasn't knocked on your door in a decade. So I think on either side it requires a showing up.
AJ:Hey there from back near Baltimore by a clear water stream at Oregon Ridge Such a beautiful place. I thought I'd record our introduction here. Today we're back with Chloe Maxmin for a debrief that has been eagerly awaited by me and many of you I know on how the Dirtr oad candidates went at the recent US elections, and where to from here. This episode also marks the birthday of my late mate and mentor, professor Frank Fisher. Longer term listeners will know I always commemorate this with a special guest that I think Frank would have particularly appreciated, and Chloe so fits that bill, following in the footsteps of other fittingly special guests, from the late Hazel Henderson to the still thriving Allan Savory, Charles Massy and Paul Hawken. G'day Anthony James, here for The RegenNarration independent listener supported media free of ads and paywalls, and that's thanks to people like Nelson Cheng and Peter Bate, two more impressive souls who gifted their support before I could get my act together and create subscription platforms. Thanks so much for your five and four years of invaluable support respectively. I can't thank you enough. If you're also finding value in this, I'd love you to join this great community supporting listeners, get exclusive benefits and help keep the show on the road. Just head to the website via the show notes and follow the prompts. Thanks as always. For those who didn't catch Chloe in episode 225
AJ:last month, from up at the farm in Maine, Chloe became the first Democrat ever to represent Maine House District 88, and the youngest member of the 129th Maine Legislature. Two years later, she'd become the youngest female state senator in Maine's history, and all on the back of engaging with her community directly and in ways that transcended the partisan politics so many of us have had enough of. Then, at still just 30 years of age, chloe co-founded a non-profit that trains others in how to run for office in this way. It's called Dirt Road Organising, and in just 18 months, this resulted in 38 alumni running at the recent election. So how did they go, including Lucia and Maria from episode 228? How did her partner from episode 226, incumbent independent Bill Pluecker, go? What does it all mean and where to now?
Chloe:Hello.
AJ:Hello, how are you going?
Chloe:I'm doing all right. How are you?
AJ:Doing all right too. Wow, look at us. We're like we're in caves. It's actually been snowing here today. How are you up there?
Chloe:Oh my gosh, when are you?
AJ:In Baltimore.
Chloe:That's crazy. I was talking with someone in DC and they were like it's 30 degrees. I was like it's at least 40 outside. Now it's up in the 50s. That's crazy.
AJ:That's so funny because I've been in Denver for a little bit too, hey, so it was a complete snow in there.
Chloe:Whoa.
AJ:Though less surprising, obviously, but it was dark too, which was a bit surprising for the locals, they tell me.
Chloe:Oh, interesting.
AJ:And he was 80 at the time you know, that was only two weeks ago so.
Chloe:Oh my gosh.
AJ:All over the shop.
Chloe:That's wild. I know. None of it makes sense anymore.
AJ:It's the topical background to our conversation.
Chloe:You just.
AJ:You're bathed in sunshine now, so now I've got the picture.
Chloe:So I know the sun just came. It was like so cold and rainy this morning and the sun just came out, so I perched myself in its path.
AJ:Beautiful. So how has the emotional spectrum been over the last couple of weeks?
Chloe:Yeah, I mean, I think leading up to the election we had partners that we work with really closely and then just kind of hearing from our own folks that looked like Trump was going to win. So I felt like I was in that mind space before it happened and obviously hoped it wouldn't. Yeah, on election night, even just seeing Bill's results were closer than they'd ever been he won, but they're closer than they'd ever been before and just seeing like lots of people switch the other way and lots of people registering to vote that didn't look like they were going to be voting for Kamala, so I wasn't too shocked. But it's obviously deeply scary. I feel so blessed and privileged to live in a state with you know where our democratic governance is going to protect people, but that's not true for obviously the vast majority of the country. It's terrifying. So I don't know how has it been for you and Olivia and Yeshi?
AJ:Well, it's been interesting for us because we were being in Baltimore at the time. I'd say the emotions of people close to us and around here were similar. Yeah, by and large it's not uniform, but obviously by and large colour's blue. And then I was actually off to Denver on the day of the election. So I got the sort of final news, actually, funnily enough, with a bit of a jolt in the middle of the election. So I got the sort of final news, actually, funnily enough, with a bit of a jolt in the middle of the night and checking my phone, and then didn't sleep for a few hours while I was digesting that and getting idiot reactions from people which meant that when I went into this conference which was called Regenerate, sort of centred around ag, but then you know broader food systems and then broader everything systems.
AJ:On that I wondered what it would be like to be in the west and at an ag thing ostensibly in a stockyard center, you know and what that would be like, and it's fair to say that the mood was heavy yeah too, and sure I came to sort of see because I didn know really that it was a pretty progressive conference, very inclusive and very strong on the engagement like how people can engage well with each other and be in an imaginative and creative space and learning space. So they really give that some attention at the outset, more than I've seen at certainly an ag conference, but probably any conference. So it had that flavor to it. But yeah, the first day was sort of pre-conference stuff.
AJ:And it was such a heavy feeling in the air. It was on the 6th.
Chloe:Yeah.
AJ:And no one, like there wasn't a space for it. So it was very weird, yeah. The next day, the executive director of the main host organization spoke and this was all on the podcast last week actually, because I did some fox you guys don't call it this fox pops uh, little grabs with people around the place at the conference and put it together to capture the moment and to glean their reactions as well.
AJ:I know they were fascinating, but what was really strong at the time was that when this woman, Sarah, was introducing the conference, she brought it up. You know, had to and did Because, you know, whichever way your allegiances were, it was a heavy feeling in the air.
Chloe:Yeah.
AJ:How are we going to be together in these days?
Chloe:Yeah.
AJ:And within a couple of sentences she was in tears and needed to step from the microphone for a second, and in that I think, though, she captured the moment. She met the moment. That's what the feeling was like, because even for the winners at least the winners who are remotely thoughtful they're as I'm hearing it from them increasingly as I've kept tuning in too they are sad and confused equally about why people like you and our friends here are so scared. I've heard thoughtful Trump voters even before the election have this tone about them, so when I hear them after the election, I can map on to our travels of seven months. Who will say what can we do to allay your fears? And perhaps we'll talk more about the things we're hearing from the people who did vote Trump.
AJ:But yeah, in answer to your question, it's been a lot of heavy feelings, it's fair to say I think people have leveled out a little bit, but of course we're in that sort of time, isn't it? It's an in-between time. So, is this calm before storm? Is this a moment to really come together, more than ever to keep at bay the worst and perhaps embrace some of the opportunities, which was some of the tone I got out of the conference too, anyway. So there's a whole spectrum of stuff really.
Chloe:Yeah, yeah, I hear that. Yeah, definitely definitely resonates with how I think folks are reacting, in my world too. It's yeah, there's nothing, nothing, nothing easy or light about it at all, indeed, yep.
AJ:So it's sort of it's interesting to think where to start, actually, or to or to go next. In a way, I thought let's talk results. But something you said to me when we met has stayed with me, and it was along the lines of when you went home, you wondered how the kind community you knew could vote for such unkind politics. Then you decide to stand, you win and you win again and almost like incredibly, and then you start dirt road organizing. I wonder, is the same question running through your mind or does it feel different? Do you have a sense of what's happening?
Chloe:Oh gosh, I mean, I definitely feel like, whatever my sense is, just feels very particular to my experience, you know, and it feels hard to kind of talk about more broadly and for folks of different identities and backgrounds, people who put different levels of effort into the election. I just feel like everyone is really like rightfully so, having and deserves their own experience of what is happening right now. I think, I don't know, in a weird way, it almost makes more sense this time. I just feel like the Democratic Party felt so out of touch with how people that I was talking to, like what they were talking, what they were feeling, it just felt like nothing was resonating. It barely resonated with me as a rural Democrat, and so I. So it just really wasn't surprising that the intellect didn't outpower the emotion of the, of the political moment. You know, and I I definitely, through my own experience and hearing stories from the folks in our network, just this theme of people feeling really disenfranchised and just fed up and unseen and for better or worse, in Trump they saw something authentic and someone who does something and says something and then does it and, you know, kind of really identified key components of what they want in their politics in Trump.
Chloe:I definitely heard so many stories of like people don't necessarily think he's a good person, but you know, but they but they weren't really voting for the person, they were voting for the politics that they wanted, but not even really. It's all so messy, but I think, even just I'm just being anecdotal, I have absolutely no basis for this, but my own experience of consuming content leading up to the election is it is very emotionally based. Unless you're going and searching for the facts and the policies and the platforms, like you really aren't getting a lot of substance and content about who thinks what, and it really is about who who you're talking to and what shows up on your Instagram feed and what TV channel you're watching, and so, yeah, it just felt like there was so much disconnect on so many, so many levels, and I, of course, think that there are a lot of people who voted for Trump that did intend the violence and racism that he promotes, and I think most people voted for him without really identifying with that level of hatred.
AJ:Yeah, I think that's well said, so I'm seeing it too. We might come back to some of those themes you raised too, about the parties and where to from here. But just on that empathizing for other people's feelings right now, I of course having spoken to Maria and Lucia in West Virginia who only just lost two on first running. I felt enormously for them, but you had a gathering, a couple of nights ago, I believe, with the larger cohort of people who ran. Yes, and I guess people who supported them. How was that?
Chloe:Yeah, it was really sweet. I mean, yeah, it was just everyone who had been on the ballot this year. We had 38 dirt roaders on the ballot at some point in 2024. And you know, so many of them won, even though they didn't win the election. They, they were talking about how they're like. You know we have a volunteer infrastructure now. You know there's a base that we can draw on.
Chloe:Or we knocked on 5000 doors. Or you know, we organized one of our candidates in Indiana organized a rural summit that had folks from all over the state come and talk about rural politics. So there are just these, these stories that felt like small, small glimmers of hope and success. And a lot of them did outperform past cycles and even even if they didn't win, so that was really cool to see too. You know they they were all running such authentic, grounded and kind campaigns and they did make inroads in places that Trump won. So that was special. That was special and inspiring to see. And then we did have people who won. So it was cool to see them and celebrate them and the next step of their journey.
AJ:Yeah, cool. Well, let's talk about that now, then. So firstly though, Bill did win.
Chloe:He did.
AJ:Despite the wins, going in the opposite direction, and I imagine it gets harder, as you've been in for three terms. Like people have more to pick on right. So how's he feeling? It must all the same feel like a pretty special result.
Chloe:Yeah, no, he's thrilled, of course he's already. He's in the other room right now talking about his bills and what he's going to work on next session. Talking about his bills and what he's going to work on next session? Yeah, I mean, you know, I really like term limits and they're very necessary in our democracy and also when you're going into your fourth term, you just have like the perspective and experience to navigate it in a smoother way and really know like how to take on big bills and make them happen. So it's cool to see him dig into all of that.
AJ:Yeah Well, let's take a segue from there too and go to where some of the Dirt Road candidates so to speak did win. How many are we talking about? Where were they and how did that happen? What were their experiences?
Chloe:Yeah, we had folks win in New Hampshire, vermont, wisconsin and Montana and they're in it. One of our candidates in Wisconsin, sarah Kieske, won. I think she won a 51% of the vote for a very competitive state Senate seat and that was super cool. She had a huge race that just like tons of money poured in on either side and she prevailed. And there are folks who voted for trump and voted for sarah and she's you know, she's an incredibly kind person. She's a mental health professional, she's amazing. So that was really. That was really cool to see.
Chloe:We have, uh, leanne leanne harple in vermont who was who was already attending her orientation. She won by just over a hundred votes in a in a seat up in the Northeast kingdom on the border of Canada. We had Melody Cunningham win in the district just outside Missoula, montana, and then earlier in the year in April I don't he doesn't get enough credit because he's amazing but Wade Lawler won a seat on the Vernon County board in Wisconsin and he beat a 18 year incumbent for that seat. So that was also very exciting. So we do have some really good folks in office, which is hopeful because it's the state and the local and the hyper-local government bodies that are going to have to protect us if they're willing.
AJ:Wow, there's some incredible results when you think about it, and that it was first time running, and even for you guys, only 18 months out from the election, I guess, as the dust settles, do you see it like that too?
Chloe:See it that it was exciting.
AJ:Yeah, and it was just achieving that in such a short timeframe seems it's almost incredible.
Chloe:Yeah, we were excited. We had like 50% of the folks either won or outperformed past cycles and that felt really huge. And other folks, even if they didn't outperform, you know they, you know some of them received more votes than than other non-conservative candidates had received in previous cycles. You know there were still like big stories coming out of their races and, yeah, it was very, it was hopeful. You know, definitely, seeing that amidst the national news, it was, yeah, it's just, you know, at least in my mind, this concept of meeting people where they're at and going door to door and having authentic, heartfelt and kind conversations about really divisive issues. That's the only way that we can ever come back from where we are, and so it was good to see that the candidates who really were doing that work, that they they made a difference like including she and Maria.
AJ:Yes, it feels to me, then, like in terms of theory of change, it still is bearing out, like it's not that it's been shown to, not, in fact, it's been interesting. I was even listening to this American Life and they were at one of the gatherings in Michigan as Trump won and the people were bubbling there because they'd been doing the same stuff. They actually went out and were saying the same sorts of language and I thought how interesting is that?
Chloe:Definitely. Yeah, it's just what we got to do. I guess, going back to what we were talking about earlier, about how there's so much noise, so much kind of targeted and at the same time nonsensical noise, that the only way to break through all of that is with personal conversations. But I also think a lot about how, especially in campaign world, the canvassing is, um, often the most hated, most hated task, maybe right up there with with fundraising, and if we ask volunteers to canvas, it's usually it's like yeah, it's unpaid volunteer work. You know, it seems so crazy to me that this work that seems so crucial to protecting people's basic human rights is done for free.
AJ:Yeah, perhaps that's its greatest strength as well.
Chloe:Yeah, maybe so.
AJ:Related to this complexity. I'd love to spend a couple seconds more on what Lucia and Maria told me which is what you said about somewhere I think it was Vermont. Was it that people who voted for some dirt road candidates, or some of those people, voted for Trump too? How have they slash, you come to think about that?
Chloe:to think about that.
Chloe:Yeah, you know, it was like all through the election um, we had candidates sending us pictures of their signs next to Trump signs, and which I think is super cool.
Chloe:Um, because I think the the narratives and structures around national politics are so broken and they feel not impossible, but very difficult to change, um, especially in one election cycle.
Chloe:But the local politics is much more accessible for folks, you know, because you can meet the folks who are running and local races often come down to a handful of votes and you know, so that you can really see that your vote does have a difference and you just have, like, a more, more grounded and connected sense of the politics in your community, whereas national politics, especially presidential candidates, are like almost mythic figures that feel really untouchable and are couched in institutions that are ancient. So all of that made so much sense, you know, and the fact that they, that they could get traction even in places that Kamala wasn't getting traction, that's hopeful and to me that's still progress. That's okay, you know, and I think it goes to that authenticity piece too, where it's like why are people voting for Trump and our candidates? It's because they feel something more real than they felt before. That's what people are telling us, I guess.
AJ:Yeah, I hear that too and I see that too. Noting, of course, again that Bill wins as an independent. Were all the people that ran this time around who'd been through the Dirt Road program? Did they run as Democrats?
Chloe:Not all of them, no.
AJ:So there was some independents in there too. Was it a similar flavor? Whichever way they went in terms of how they went?
Chloe:Yeah, we actually. Since we're a nonpartisan organization, we don't really track their party, just the values that they run on. So I'm actually not sure the breakdown.
AJ:I love that, you're not sure.
Chloe:Yeah, I know, I'm just like. I just know that they're the people that are aligning with our values as an organization, and that's what matters to us.
AJ:I love that. You're not sure. Partly I'm wondering because it's geared towards transcending the party divides and all the negative orientation, and I guess partly because of what I told you about the Australian experience right now too, where they are independent I mean different systems. So it's sort of that was the clear other way to go, but all the same it made me wonder if running as an independent even here and I guess even more so in light of what you said at the start about the Democratic Party- seeming to get more alienated with the celebrity parade and dark money.
AJ:We could probably go on about all the reasons that sort of played out like that. But I'm wondering if more running as independent might more explicitly transcend the party divide. Even here it's a total you know, live, feel wonder. I have no evidence to think it, but have you ever thought that?
Chloe:Oh my gosh, definitely, yeah, I mean, I think there's different theory of changes, like if you're running as a Democrat or like when I ran as a Democrat. My theory of change, which I would tell people really clearly all the time, was to make the Democratic Party better and more reflective and representative of the communities that I live in, not to really uphold everything that it stands for and the way that it's operated, but that's a particular theory of change, and I think that running independent and outside of the party structure is also a very valid and needed theory of change. So there are places in the middle too, like ranked choice voting and open primaries and other democratic reforms that enable party candidates and independent candidates to influence the election, so that things aren't so extreme.
AJ:Yeah, couldn't agree more. It makes me think a lot about the shifting landscape in general, that will the Democratic Party, for example, now have such a moment of reflection that the sort of reform of the party that you set out for will become more available, or has it so got the blinkers on to compete in the way that it has done and just thinks it needs to double down and go harder. It just didn't go hard enough.
AJ:I guess that's part of my wondering. I mean, you'd love to think the former, but then I wonder are we in and I wonder in Australia too, are we in the midst of a bigger political tectonic shift where the two-party thing is just starting to like? I literally heard one Trump voter, for example, on I mentioned these guys to you. I think we spoke too. Braver Angels, the non-profit that's set up to bridge the divides and help people literally do that in practice.
AJ:And they did some beautiful stuff over the election, like have families who voted either side sit together at booths, and stuff like that. And on their podcast A Braver Way, the last one for the year that was debriefing on all this, and they had Trump voters, with Kamala voters answering audience questions. That's right, and the most bleeding edge ones, like the really heartfelt ones, all the big ones that we've been thinking about, and one of the Trump voters who was saying things like I hate the thought that my countrymen feel scared now of me and what I voted for said he sees the Republican Party more like the Democratic Party of the past that is there for rural areas and working class and so forth, and what a thing to say and hear.
AJ:So it makes me wonder if the Democratic Party just sort of continues to vacate that and the Republican Party becomes that, or has become that presence. If that's true, then what does happen next?
Chloe:Right.
AJ:Is it another party? Is it independent? Like does it need to be two parties anymore? I mean big thoughts, but I wonder if we're on the cusp of something bigger.
Chloe:Yeah, yeah, it certainly seems that way Like a lot of the analysis that I've seen about the Democrats. You know, some people are like like the party could have a tent that is big enough and welcoming enough and inclusive enough to really represent everybody, but it hasn't done that very well, so that folks on on both sides are are leaving the party because they don't feel represented. You know, I as like I don't as a follower of policy and principle, I don't think that that's true, but that's certainly the perception I mean, that's so clear in their election results. So it does seem like the democratic party needs to have a have a reckoning or or there's got to be another way forward. Yeah, but it's like I think so much of it is about infrastructure as well.
Chloe:You know, when you have like so many of our candidates were in communities, like one of our candidates, david Ahrens in Montana, represent, he was running in a district that went all the way up to the Canadian border. That district had been uncontested for 12 years until David came onto the scene and then he outperformed past Democrats by nine points. So you know, just now there's a whole little crew of folks who are like, hey, we had a candidate here, we had something to rally for. You know there's more infrastructure there now than there was before because David decided to run and make that sacrifice. So to me it's also like well, if we scale all of those little infrastructures that have been built in these communities across the country, you know what kind of impact could they have. But even still, that vision is very long term and the horror that we're going to face is quite immediate. So it's not good.
AJ:It makes me think about a lot that's been said about the um, it being a gender election too, hey. And then there was the paradox about the reproductive rights stuff, the constitutional change, no less, at state levels that passed. I think it was four states who voted trump, and I guess it just adds more complexity to the mix.
Chloe:Yeah, how do you reconcile that in your mind? I don't know, I don't know. Yeah, I really don't have any good insight just beyond my own musing. Yeah, I don't know. It feels really confusing and it also feels like the election turned out to be much like about much more than women's rights and reproductive rights and so that. But I don't think that felt, I don't think that was clear before the results came in. You know that there was so many groups and campaigns and candidates trying to mobilize along that line, but it wasn't enough.
AJ:And just coming back to what you said before, actually, Chloe, there was something else I was going to mention that, despite the enormous fundraising that came in with the Democrats after Kamala took the race on, it seemed only a fraction were coming in to the rural candidates that had been through the Dirt Road program, which again was partly why I wondered where's the bigger benefit.
AJ:But I guess, as I say, that it's going to be something that you will be, that everyone will be hoping shifts at the next cycle even at the midterms, that more of that money that just goes into the TV and the focus groups and so forth, actually gets to rural areas where there are these opportunities but people ran so close to on these bases with so little backing. What if they were backed?
Chloe:Right, yeah, what if they were backed? That's, I think about that all the time. Yeah, what if we were investing in every rural district, like our lives depended on it? And yeah, not just the, not just the districts that felt or that are competitive or that are, you know, slam dunks. What if we, what if we had intentional efforts to to really organize in some of the districts that we're not, we're not like that. And there are certainly groups that are doing that work. No doubt there are incredible groups doing that work, but just on thinking, thinking about, like the broader democratic party and these, these massive money machines, and where all that money gets funneled, does it does seem like that? Um, there are a lot better uses for that money it should be writ large now.
AJ:Yeah, and then I think you know I mean marie and lucia, and I talked about it. We talked about it that it is a longer term thing than just one cycle, obviously, and it, we talked about it that it is a longer-term thing than just one cycle, obviously.
AJ:And it makes me think about then that even if Kamala won here, there was still so much work to do, if the country's splitting, you know, almost that 50-50 type thing still, and so on the one hand, I think, okay, the divides were still going to remain either way, and for the work to be done that we're talking about on the ground, real people connecting with real people. And then I also think I come back to a New York Times podcast episode on the run-up where he'd just come from being with Sarah Kieske in Wisconsin which alerted me first to her running, but I'd already known of you so it was all starting to connect.
AJ:And then he went to the Braver Angels convention, which had also happened in Wisconsin and there was people across the spectrum there and he spent three days with them talking about all these things and he said, geez, if there's one thing that's come across to me, is that people are broadly talking from the same song sheet. You know, want better options, wish things were less divided, more caring for people. So his last line was something along the lines of so are we as divided as we're told we are? And that resonated too with our experience across the country where we weren't seeing that in reality.
AJ:And I hear you guys talk about candidates getting voted for and the same people are voting for Trump. I'm seeing the same stuff and the reproductive rights stuff. I'm seeing the swirls rather than the binaries, and I guess, if that's true, it does say that there's even more opportunity for your theory of change essentially to gain more traction as it goes. Do you see it?
Chloe:along those lines too. No, I totally, I 100% agree with you. That was my own experience organizing here. It's the experience of our candidates, and now it's like what I'm hearing folks talk about in their election debriefs is, like you know, that there are so many people who did, who can, who can bridge, who have bridged both sides, and that we aren't as divided. You know the reason someone voted for one of our dirt road candidates and the reason why someone voted for Trump might've been really, really similar.
Chloe:But I think the challenge like the, I always think that and I'm like, but the only like the only way to to really identify that you actually do have more in common than not is by having a conversation, and those conversations are not easy. They don't take five minutes. Be like hey, are you for affordable health care? Yeah, oh, okay, me too. We agree, you know issues are not. They're not like far off things that we think about, or like tax policy or whatever. They're issues that are affecting and impacting our ability to survive and our bodies and the right to stay on our land, and so everything is so charged and it takes an extra. It takes so much emotional energy and volunteer time and money and structure to go out and have those conversations, but it does seem like that is the only way to uncover any bridges that the trees have fallen on.
AJ:Yeah, well said. You know something that I heard at the Regenerate conference.
AJ:I wanted to bring to the table here too, because it was that sort of ag-centered thing and because you've got people like RFK for, whatever the complexities of the man, the regenerative agriculture advocacy he has and perhaps even more particularly a Joel Salatin again complexities, but now appointed as an advisor and people were wondering about the potential for opportunity in terms of the small scale agriculture and regenerative agriculture that, along with that sort of thrust of bring the manufacturing back and bring that idea of great america back, that there might be. In fact, I know people who voted, who were going to vote rfk, who voted for trump right, largely on that basis, because they're so, they so viscerally feel the chronic illness crises around big food and big pharma and the impenetrability of changing those systems.
AJ:Yeah, and they've put a bit of faith that this administration might go there as small-scale farmers who care about the land. Do you see any of that? That's a good question.
Chloe:I definitely see some of that, Maybe from a different angle. You know that definitely small-scale farmers and a lot of the farming community around here votes conservative because there's less regulations, less oversight. The conservatives tend to like smaller government that doesn't interfere so much with private business and I definitely think there's a lot of validity around that, especially for the agricultural community. And at the same time I think that the Republican Party in practice is very much in bed with big ag and all of the major pesticide and chemical companies. I'm not saying that the democrats are are any better, but I think that the like, the values and the framework of the democratic party party are better poised to support small farmers. But I don't think that.
AJ:I don't think that either side like really grasps is like really grasping or doing it well and in fairness I guess, additional fairness to the people who I've spoken with I mean some that were on record in that episode last week out of the conference work at a policy level and believe so much in the win-win on offer across the board.
AJ:Whether you're fiscal conservative or environmentally oriented or a farmer, you know sorts of win-wins we believe in that. I mean, of course they have to run with this narrative too. They're going to go in and speak with the people and try and pull stuff off still.
Chloe:But they believe it.
AJ:I don't doubt they believe it that there's such win-win on offer. This has at least equal shot of being communicated to and responded to, if not more than it did before. But yes, I hear you about the bigger connections. In that sense, it will be fascinating to see how the conflicting narratives within the administration play out.
Chloe:Yeah.
AJ:And even, I suppose, what opportunities that opens up as they perhaps clash.
AJ:Do you, chloe, put any stock? Have you come across it? Do you put any stock in what's being I don't know how deridingly it's being called this, but blue? And on the bubbling thing, I've heard amongst a couple of journos now that, particularly with regards to and apparently this is their line I have no idea a drastically out of normal proportions number of bullet ballots, as you guys call it here, just voting for the president, nothing underneath that. And in the swing states they were way out of proportion to what they normally are. And we're in other states. That's the line. Have you heard that? Do you place any stock in that? Think about that. Have a sense of where that's going.
Chloe:Oh geez, I don't. I definitely don't feel qualified enough to answer that question. Yeah, I know here in Maine that there are a lot of people who just voted for presidential candidates and not for local candidates. There were a lot of recounts and that seemed to be a theme, but that is all that I know about it.
AJ:And I've got less qualification than you.
Chloe:Someone out there could tell us?
AJ:Well, that's right. I'm eagerly awaiting to see if it has any actual legs. All right, chloe. So in terms of where to from here, firstly, I'm curious do you do any more, I guess, caring for each other in the first instance Is there more of a recovery to be had, knowing what we do these days about you know that famous book now on trauma, the Body Keeps the Score.
AJ:like the people's efforts in this campaign are lodged in them in all sorts of ways that they'd no doubt be feeling acutely at the moment, but perhaps without addressing in a more conscious, longer term way, will persist and have longer impacts. Knowing what we know about that is part of your journey as Dirt Raid, organising, observing some of this and thinking, okay, what do we need to do first? And then, of course, you've certainly got your eye on what happens from here in a bigger sense. I'd love to hear a bit of both.
Chloe:Yeah, we are in the process of connecting with our candidates and figuring out how to best support them, regardless of the outcome of their election. You know, even if you, even if for folks who didn't win, like we were saying, there are still big wins and that's not something to just stop working on. So we're connecting with them to figure out how to best support them and and where they want to take their, their organizing work, and we'll be doing a lot of trainings next year. Um, we're also circulating a pledge, just kind of capturing some of the post-election need for action. So we're trying to recruit folks to run for office and organize in their communities. So it's a moment of reflection and taking stock and figuring out how to take care of our people and then how to best support folks as they want to take action next year.
AJ:Tell us more about the pledge and the range of partners that seem to be linked in with it?
Chloe:Yeah, we're working with a whole bunch of state and national organizations to push out a pledge recruiting folks to run for office or organize in their community in the wake of the election. And so where? Yeah, those folks will get funneled into all of the incredible organizations that we're working with to get trained and connect with other folks that are doing this work as well. So that's been a big thing that we've been focusing on.
AJ:What sort of organizations are we talking about?
Chloe:We're working with Surge showing up for racial justice Contest Every Race, ruralorganizingorg Forward, montana, change, tennessee, galeo in Georgia, and then we have more folks coming on in the next few weeks that can. We'll post them on our website.
AJ:There seems to be so much going on at that grassroots level.
Chloe:Definitely.
AJ:Makes you wonder where it can go.
Chloe:Yeah, I mean it was. The idea was not ours. It was brought to us by a partner of ours, you know who who was like I think there's going to be a a moment after the election, like after 2016, when Trump won and people were just really reeling and looking for a place to go where they could do something impactful, and and asked us to kind of house this, this pledge. So we started prepping for that way before the election and had our minds in that space for quite a while. So I think we were ready for it, at least logistically, not emotionally. But, yeah, it feels really good to be in partnership with other groups that are doing this work as well.
AJ:Yeah, it's been one of the things that's been most outstanding to us as we've travelled across the country as well. Just how many organisations that you know in Australia, we certainly had not got. We don't get that across the airwaves.
Chloe:Right.
AJ:And indeed I'm watching Australian commentating about it still coming out so straight off the TV, really about the worst of it, that it shows about the states and none about how the best is being shown up. Yeah, it's very interesting. So I guess, the way the system works here, you've got your eye on the midterms.
Chloe:Yeah, in two years will be the midterm, so there'll be a lot of more municipal races or special elections in 2025, and then 26 will be a chance to take back the US House, and then there'll be a lot of gubernatorial races, a lot of state ledge races. So, yeah, the next cycle is never that far away, for better or for worse.
AJ:Yeah, so finally, Chloe, we talked a little last time too, about media. I'd love to know what you observed in terms of media this time and if there are any reflections about what that means as you go forward now oh gosh, yeah.
Chloe:Again, I feel like there's folks that are much more on the beat of this than I am. I mean, I think what I've seen is just so much along the lines of what we've been talking about, but that the only thing that breaks through the capture of our media on either side is a face to face conversation. Whether that's your, you're watching CNN all the time and then shocked that Trump won and you haven't talked to a Trump voter. Or if it's, you're watching Fox News all the time and a Democrat hasn't knocked on your door in a decade. So I think on either side it requires a, a showing up, and that's all I think about.
AJ:Obviously there was talk about the Joe Rogan effect and others like it. With this federal election I quipped a dirt road media to go with the candidates. Yeah, Do you think that's a valuable thing to persist working at for people who might be inclined to go that way? Or yeah or is it really just about face to face?
Chloe:oh, I mean. No, there's so many folks that are working on thinking about the control of the media and how to ensure a more democratic and representative media landscape. We're not. We're not one of those groups, but there are so many people out there doing network. We were just talking with some folks this week who are really thinking about that. So that is so key and crucial and obviously we can't just give up. There's so many whether it's media or canvassing, or campaigning, or forming the Democratic Party or getting folks to run as independent all of these political strategies are going to be needed in the next four years. We can't give up on them.
AJ:Yeah, it's interesting. In Australia, the last federal election, where all those independents won, showed evidence of transcending the divisive media too, on the back of this MO, of engaging with people yeah well, chloe, it's a new day and a new podcast. So we're talking a new piece of music to go out with. That might perhaps have been even a bit of a presence for you in the last couple of weeks yeah, I've been listening to a lot of zach top.
Chloe:he's like a younger guy who's kind of reviving 90s country music. I listened to a lot of Zach Top recently. Makes me nostalgic for when things weren't so awful, at least on the surface.
AJ:Yeah, there were a few people in the conference who chose that way too. Is there a particular song that you've gravitated to?
Chloe:Sounds Like the Radio. So good, it's so good I love it that is so beautifully on theme. Yeah, yeah, it's so good, I love it so much. It like it does sound like my childhood and it sounds like his childhood too, so it just is like the perfect, the perfect song for me.
AJ:Oh man, so much music at this time too In fact there was a few people at the conference who spoke about that too that the movement, that music, has been alongside these grassroots efforts at particular times. And yeah, let that be again. Thanks, Chloe, Thank you. There have been many listeners looking forward to this conversation. I have too, especially the ones who felt like you did, and our friends here To hear something else the biggest story going on and where success is being had already in a short time and it's amazing what you've done.
Chloe:Hats off and good luck, thank you. Thank you so much. It's so nice to chat with you again and I hope your next travels are super smooth.
AJ:That was Chloe Maxmin, co-founder of Dirtr oad Organizing and co-author of the book Dirt Road Revival Links in the show notes with more for subscribing members as always, in great thanks for making this episode possible. You can join this great community supporting listeners by heading to the website or the show notes and following the prompts. Thank you and thanks for sharing this episode and rating and reviewing the podcast. It all helps. My name's Anthony James. Thanks for listening.
