The RegenNarration Podcast
The RegenNarration podcast features the stories of a generation that is changing the story, enabling the regeneration of life on this planet. It’s ad-free, freely available and entirely listener-supported. You'll hear from high profile and grass-roots leaders from around Australia and the world, on how they're changing the stories we live by, and the systems we create in their mold. Along with often very personal tales of how they themselves are changing, in the places they call home. With award-winning host, Anthony James.
The RegenNarration Podcast
234. 2025 Australians of the Year for WA: Dianne & Ian Haggerty, Natural Intelligence Farmers
A few weeks ago I released a podcast marking the premiere of an episode of Australian Story that featured the incredible story of regeneration at the hands of the Henggeler family at Kachana Station. Many of you already know the story, from its popularity on this podcast. Well, that Australian Story has gone onto well over half a million views already. And no sooner had it gone out than I got the news that fellow legendary regenerative farmers in Western Australia, Dianne and Ian Haggerty, had been awarded the 2025 Australians of the Year for WA. Now they’re in the mix for the big one, the national Australian of the Year award.
You can let the Council know how happy you are about this, and what incredible national ambassadors Di and Ian would be as the Aussies of the Year next year, via the Australian of the Year awards website and social media outlets. When sharing, use the hashtags #AusoftheYear and #NaturalIntelligenceFarming, and maybe #SustainableFarming and #RegenerativeFarming.
Marking this moment, today we revisit episode 68: Natural Intelligence Farming: The ‘world breakthrough’ regenerating land, food & communities. This was the first time I’d been out to their farm back in 2020. And listening back now was a reminder of its first impacts on me out there, which I speak about at the end, after I’d spent two days with them touring the farm and chatting back at the homestead. I also remembered my little mate, chirping in my ear from the get go.
I start with a few updated layers to the story and some thoughts from Di and Ian.
Chapter markers & transcript.
Original episode recorded on 17 & 18 July 2020.
Title slide: Di & Ian Haggerty with their award (Auspire - Australia Day Council WA)
See more photos on the original episode website linked above, and for more behind the scenes, become a supporting listener via the links below.
Music:
Intro by Jeremiah Johnson.
Regeneration,
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Hey there from a windier, colder day in Antigua, guatemala, so I'm inside today in our humble little 3x3 hostel room. A few weeks ago, I released a special podcast marking the premiere of an episode of Australian Story, the influential ABC TV show back home, that featured the incredible story of regeneration at the hands of the Henggeler family at Kachana Station. Many of you already know the story from its popularity on this podcast. Well, that Australian Story has gone on to well over half a million views already, and no sooner had it gone out that I got the news that fellow legendary regenerative farmers from Western Australia, Dianne and Ian Haggerty, had been awarded the 2025 Australians of the Year for WA. You can see a photo of them receiving the award at Government House in Perth on the title slide to this episode. Now Dianne and Ian are in the mix for the big one, the National Australian of the Year Award, customarily announced on the eve of Australia Day in January. On that, perhaps you'll feel like letting the Council know how happy you are about this news and what incredible national ambassadors Dianne and Ian would be as the Aussies of the year next year. Ways you can communicate that and, of course, share this huge news widely with others, are in the show notes. M arking this incredible moment of well-due recognition
AJ:today we revisit episode 68, Natural Intelligence Farming: T he world breakthrough regenerating land, food and communities. This was the first time I'd been out to their farm back in 2020, having just met them the year before, I think it was, at the first RegenWA conference at Perth Stadium in 2019, where Di was a keynote. By the way, heads up the sequel to that conference will be back at Perth Stadium in September next year. I'll be back home for that one and honoured to be back in the MC role. Anyway, what a visit to their farm that was. Listening back to the episode now was a reminder for me too of its first impacts on me out there, viscerally experiencing what they've been up to over decades of pioneering work. I speak about my raw reactions a bit at the end, after I'd spent two days with them touring the farm and chatting back at the homestead. I recorded it all back then, so this episode became a bit of a greatest hits, almost a documentary-style production, and just such a privilege to have been welcomed so warmly and trusted with all they'd put on the line for so long. Also, listening back, I remembered my little mate chirping in my ear from the get-go and right through to the end.
AJ:G'day, Anthony James here for The RegenNarration, your independent, listener-supported portal into the dawning regenerative era, with thanks to listeners like Jeff Pow and Michelle McManus, Sadie Crestman, Jeremy James and Tom Macindoe and Kaycee Simuong for nearly four years of support now. Again from a time before I'd managed to set up subscription platforms. You guys have been there from such a pivotal time. Huge thanks. If you're not yet part of this great community of supporting listeners, I'd love you to join us, get benefits if you'd like, and help keep the show on the road. Just follow the links in the show notes.
AJ:With my great gratitude. D i and Ian and I tried to link up for a little chat to patch in here, but the time zones are difficult, the media is all over them now, and hey, they've got farming to do. But they'd shared some of their thoughts and feelings when the news came through and I'd love to share some of it with you here. Di wrote: 'the enormity of the honour bestowed upon Ian and I as 2025 WA Australians of the Year has slowly been sinking in and along with that, the awareness of the responsibility in making the most of this rare once-in-a-lifetime experience. We were asked how we felt as a result of receiving this award, and it looks a little like this. We're experiencing great humility following the influx of support from local, national and global community in support of the story created by Natural Intelligence Farming.
AJ:Sharing story is a critical part of bringing community together, learning, growing and inspiring change or tradition. With gratitude to all involved at the Australian of the Year Awards and the community members who nominate and are nominated for this special award. In a subsequent message, they were reflecting on the global significance of their award, actually having just won another international award too, and they were relishing this spotlight being put on sustainable agriculture for all our benefit. And certainly for encouraging more people to return to our agricultural fold with a regenerative mandate and, in that sense, with First Nations people front and centre. And finally, they hope this helps build momentum for regeneration globally, including in attracting the interest of more growers that this might help build their confidence in transitioning towards regenerative practices. What a way this family has come. Kudos to whoever nominated them, and just quietly
AJ:I had nominated them for an Australian Story episode too, a while back, after they'd featured for a few minutes in the story of Charles Massy. But it didn't get up because they'd been featured there. In any case, the story's clearly not over, and they'll be sharing more of it, by the way, at the Grounded Festival in Tasmania this week, alongside Chris Henggeler and so many others. To everyone heading that way, have a wonderful and catalytic time. We're with you in spirit over the next few days and look forward to hearing all about it. For now, I hope you enjoy hearing this snapshot of the life story of Di and Ian Haggerty from this beautiful couple themselves in their element on the land.
Dianne:That's exactly what we try and take away. Is that human control over these natural systems? Realistically, we know very, very little about how natural systems truly function. We don't really need to know it all. All we've got to do is just try and do our best to enable that and just be part of that, and with a lot of respect.
AJ:G'day. My name's Anthony James. This is The RegenNarration, and that was Di Haggerty, who, with husband Ian, forms a highly respected pioneering regenerative farming duo. I've come to visit them in the central wheat belt of Western Australia to learn more about what Charles Massy has called their world breakthrough operation. The Haggerty's are pioneers of a range of methods that offer a low-cost, viable model of farming in marginal croplands. With the UN forecasting, we have less than 60 harvests left in our degrading soils, this has global relevance. The Haggerty's are regenerating degraded drylands grappling with salinity, chemical residues, climate and other compounding issues and turning it into thriving cropland, even with as little as 100mm of annual rain. They're finding it, resulting in an array of benefits, including clean, quality produce, significant carbon drawdown and a much less stressful way of life.
AJ:Di and Ian were raised in farming families, but that line of work didn't pan out initially, so they headed to other places and professions and started to see things a bit differently. They picked up a degraded farm back in the wheat belt and transformed it. That's now the foundation of their regenerative mission progressively picking up run-down farms currently totalling around 65,000 acres each on the regenerative path with staggering speed and success. And that's recasting all sorts of possibilities for human health and prosperity, animal welfare, bird life, regional communities and a regenerative economy and culture more broadly.
AJ:I've been getting around a couple of the farms with Di and Ian in recent days and sharing the platform with a number of other creatures in some brilliant, rare rain for this conversation. G'day Di and Ian, it's great to be with you at the homestead here and thanks for joining me on the podcast. Can you describe the landscape for us by way of introduction to the region for those who don't know it, and just as a look through your eyes at it as well and what it means to you?
Dianne:Well, this property itself has got a beautiful lot of granite outcrops on it and the house is positioned high on one of those, so you've got a really good look over some of the valleys and, fortunately, lots of vegetation, native bushland pieces that have been retained and the start of the Salt Lake system. So, yeah, there's lots of natural lands out there that you can take in without too much busyness from machinery or traffic or other things. Yeah, it's just a wonderful vast landscape you can see for such a long distance and you don't feel hemmed in at all. You can feel you know a lot of freedom out here yeah, I think um country becomes part of you.
Ian:You know you have connection with your country, it gets in your blood, it's in your veins, and just to see those seasons between the harsh ones and the good ones, you know, that's what. That's just a wonder of it all. What's the summer look like out here and how's it changing? Yeah, things are changing, but the seasons used to, in the early days, be fairly predictable. They're just totally unpredictable.
Dianne:It can be very hot, you know, 45 degrees plus quite often over the summer, but if you get a summer thunderstorm it's lovely to see. Now we can see the summer grasses and the summer active plants coming up. You know, and they're really what we're trying to base a lot of our future on is those summer active plants and their role and their capacity to deal with pretty harsh conditions.
AJ:And you're finding that they can withstand a 50-degree sort of burst.
Dianne:Well, they can, absolutely, and the key is, too, that they seem to persist right through to the winter now, absolutely, and the key is, too, that they seem to persist right through to the winter now A lot of this home farm here. Since end of August 2018 till just before this rain here, we'd had about 210 to 215 millimetres for the two years nearly Two years. Yeah, so nearly two years. Scary when they reckon it's 200, don't they? So I don't want it to be a pattern or a long-lasting pattern anyway, but at least it shows that there's a capacity to withstand that pattern. But we've got to get a bit of work done. That's the thing. There's such an unknown out there. Isn't there what is unfolding before us?
AJ:What is the trajectory of rainfall around here, Di? Is it peeling off like it is in a lot of other places around Australia?
Dianne:Well, it does appear to be so. Certainly since the 2000s, the rainfall has dropped off significantly. We reckon it's probably dropped by about a third.
AJ:So who came up with the natural intelligence moniker?
Dianne:Well, yeah, I think I did. It was a bit of a rebuttal to the artificial intelligence world. I felt that what I was seeing in the paddock, and the intricacies that you're starting to see unfold at times, and the complexities which were just so amazing, I just thought it just trumped any kind of artificial intelligence. I had to put a name to it, you know, just to say, well, listen, the natural intelligence really, to me, is vastly superior to artificial intelligence.
AJ:anyway, yeah, beautiful and I thought it needed the, the.
Dianne:You know the credit it deserved.
AJ:And some of the methods, then, that you've developed that have been unique, like you've pioneered some of the methods involved.
Dianne:I think the start has been the animals. Their gut microbiome has been the real trigger point and their integration with landscape. And our role initially has been to remove the brakes off them and to offer the best diversity we possibly can, but also the stability for their gut microbiome through having fibre available to them. So that's why we grow our own hay. People say, oh, you shouldn't really need to be feeding hay, but when you're taking animals onto new land, all the time you don't know the status of that property, what's available to them To ensure the wellbeing of those animals and their gut microbiome. We have that consistent hay that we've grown on our own properties under our own systems. We know it's, you know, chemical free, it's high nutrient value, and then those animals can be stabilized on a new property so they can do their job without much stress.
AJ:Yeah, so that's what it all boils down to initially is their gut microbiome. Yeah, and then you're looking for complementary inputs.
Dianne:That's right, because it's a big job for them. And when you come to a lot of these properties that haven't got a lot of, you know, topsoil might have been washed or blown away or there's been a tillage or whatever it is. There's not necessarily the capacity of the land to carry high stocking rates and when you're looking at nutrient cycling, it's basically the urine and the manure off those animals that are enabling that.
Dianne:But if you can't have enough density of the animals because the land can't support, that at this stage, the best thing to do from our perspective was look at what other things nature utilised, which was earthworm activity and compost process. How could we get that across a large part of the landscape to support what the animals could do and really speed up what they could do until the land was able to carry the numbers, perhaps, of animals? That could be a self-cycling situation, and we haven't achieved that yet, so we're still needing to do them hand in hand at this point in time.
AJ:And the way you apply. It was a particular innovation.
Dianne:Yes, it was originally developed by the Amish people, is that right? Yeah, developed a compost extract machine which came to Australia and then we've gone and modified and made our own type to handle bigger quantities. So it's far more effective when you've got a fair bit of country to cover and you're wanting to use a fair bit of volume of the compost extract.
Ian:And the amount that we'll use. This year we'll probably use 2 to 2.5 million litres of extract, so we're just virtually putting it all out in raindrop form using our current big sprayers, and they weren't expensive modifications to the boom.
AJ:So it's amazing to think of those big boom machines operating in such a almost a delicate way.
Ian:Well, that's the key to this natural intelligence farming. You know, um, we're going back to the most basic systems, but then we we're integrating it with the most modern technology that we've got. So I reckon that's where the real harmony comes in. You're merging two worlds in together, so we're picking up efficiencies of this latest gear and these big Mogra emus here.
AJ:Some young ones, some young emus on our right here. What a dozen or something.
Dianne:Oh, more than that, look at that, oh more.
AJ:Look at them go.
Dianne:That's a hell of a sight that. Look at that, look at him go. You just look at the, even just the top of it there, just the diversity in plant instead of just being, you know, the monoculture same grasses or whatever. Yeah, there's quite a bit of diversity of different plants there.
AJ:So culturally this would be regarded as a dog's breakfast. Yeah, yeah, that's right and you're looking at this going. Oh yeah, beautiful mix.
Dianne:Yeah, bring it on. Get more and more mix, more and more diversity, different plants and some of the paddocks have the wildflowers come out into them too in the pasture phase.
AJ:So no drenching and no mulesing at all that's right and no grain supplements. So just purely grass-fed Yep.
Dianne:Or pasture-fed, or pasture-fed.
AJ:Yeah, yeah, when are we now Di?
Dianne:This paddock is an interesting one because we've actually had some carbon testing done on this over a three-year period and it's shown a 44 to 55% increase in soil carbon in a three and a half year timeframe.
AJ:Three and a half years only. Yeah, what does it suggest for what's possible in Australia?
Dianne:Well, yeah, I think that's going to be the thing. If we can get more of that perenniality into the landscape and those deep-rooted plants again, I think we have got a really productive future. But at the moment, I think, with a lot of that short-season shallow-rooted plants that seem to dominate, it's making it tough, isn't it so? If we can just change those type of plants that seem to dominate, it's making it tough, isn't it so? If we can just change those type of plants that are there, and then we can probably have a bigger impact on that whole ecosystem and the rainfall patterns, the water cycles, everything, it'd be pretty amazing.
AJ:And the salt out here? Is it something you've had to contend with much on your properties? And do you see the water table sort of go back to where it?
Dianne:What's been really interesting.
Dianne:What we've noticed is one better recruitment of plants into the saline affected areas, so the plants actually being able to grow further into the more saline areas and reducing the salinity, because the soil testing has been showing that as well.
Dianne:But what we're suspecting is happening because we've got that soil infiltration and the microbial interaction happening within the soil. There seems to be like a fresh water lens sitting on top of the salt water, because that lake over that we just drove past as we came into this paddock. As the water table rises on that, the sheep actually have been drinking the water off it, whereas you'd think it'd be totally saline and they wouldn't be able to drink it. But we think, with that freshwater lens just sitting on top, the top layer that's coming through onto those lakes as it seeps, so it seems to be seeping up from underneath. Yeah, they're drinking and so they won't be going down to the water trough we've got set up for them over the summer, so quite remarkable really to see that yeah, so what we're finding in the summer along the on the edges of a lake, there and even along here, you'll see, the sheep are actually digging holes.
Ian:There's always water seeping out there now, where it used to be dry, and they're digging holes and actually drinking the water. So it's actually the sensing, the fresh water coming out from the landscape, that fresh water lens. So it's actually changing that whole whole makeup of this lake. And, yeah, so we bought this farm in 17 and 2017. But so just by changing those practices, taking all those artificials out, it's actually been able to build that microbial content to actually filter, detoxify and be able to have fresh water come out through from that surface. And that lens is seeping through into this lake. So we're actually getting more of an infiltration of fresh water back in the lake rather than being salt. So it's going to be interesting over the next years to see you can see what the salt's done to the vegetation around here, how things change back.
Dianne:Fascinating. Well, this was obviously a beautiful little fresh water hollow. You know would have had moisture underneath it, but all the trees that were obviously growing there, it was just amazing that the sheep picked up on it so quick.
Ian:So that's another thing about your epigenetics and building up those natural instincts in those animals to instantly come here and sense that out and dig for fresh water on the side. You just see, they scoop out a little area and they're all drinking from it and that's what alerted us to it, wondering what the hell those sheep are doing.
Dianne:Because, even in the summertime, when there was the full moon, you know, bring the water table up and yeah, that's what was happening it was seeping in and they'd be drinking it instead of going down to the water.
Ian:Yep.
AJ:Mind-boggling. It's such a story you hear of the salinity in the wheat belt. It's such a story you hear of the salinity in the wheat belt, oh massive. Massive.
Dianne:So to see this actually play out, repairing is really and there's so much that we can do when we get more biodiverse revegetation out there as well, yes, enhance it as well. So there's so much more that we can actually contribute to.
AJ:And to think that we might start to think about the wheat belt you know, not in salty terms, almost you know as a metaphor for its health. It's almost. It's got such a reputation because it's suffered so much from the clearing and the extraction and so forth.
Dianne:Well, you think about it when you've got that water table that's close to the surface, like we've got, it actually could be looked at as an asset. So if you can get that water table that's close to the surface, like we've got, it actually can be looked at as an asset. So if you can get that to be a fresh water lens sitting on top and those plants can access that fresh water lens, and then you've got a real opportunity for year-round green cover, so they'll be deep-brewed plants, like we were talking, because we've got the water resource there, haven't we? So we've just got to change it around so that we can have the plants that can function in that again it's a great example of not looking past what you've got.
Dianne:You know the scars and all look at what you've got today, not what was here 200 years ago, whatever and work with that and really I know ian and I often get accused of looking at things with rose-coloured glasses because we do go onto a property and see where it can be in four or five years. That's how we see it first up, rather than a lot of the scars that you might see that can affect you. But there's so much potential out there of yeah, and that's what we need to be working with.
Ian:You can't blame people for thinking Western Australia is salt. You know, you fly out of Perth on a clear day at 30,000 feet and just look out that window. It's um, in the middle of summer it looks pretty shocking. There's no doubt about it. So you know something has to change.
AJ:I can't help but get excited to think you know, Perth dwellers certainly, but even broader afield would come to think of the wheatbelt, with a sense of enlivenment again. Absolutely.
Ian:Yeah, absolutely yeah. It's starting to look at all the possibilities, not the negatives of the place, and we start to get a good percentage of this landscape down to fodder shrubs and larger tree plantings as well, and we can get the productivity out of those fodder shrubs. Plus, the reversal of what's happening around these areas will make a huge difference to that whole environment, that whole ecosystem.
AJ:Including the communities. Absolutely yeah.
Dianne:Diversity of enterprise, you know.
Ian:as a result, Well, your fodder shrubs just aren't only you know sorting out your carbon and initially you're planting them on your lowest quality country and feeding livestock to get them through these dry periods. But what it's all about whole ecosystem. It's creating all the birds, the flora and the fauna and um, you know, your bees everything like the industries that can be incorporated in your bush chucker into those plantings. So if you actually took 20% to 30% of your landscape and put it down to those things, it would be a vast different area.
Dianne:You see all these deep drains yeah, it became, you know, an in thing to try and manage salinity. But realistically, once you get that water cycle functioning, that soil functioning like we were discussing this morning at the other farm you don't need those. They actually become more of a problem than a help. So we're actually going to have to fill those all back in.
AJ:And the problem would stem from erosion.
Dianne:It affects the water flow underneath. So, yeah, actually, by taking the water away, then you don't have that capacity then of the fresh water lens sitting back on top, so you're actually draining away what could be a resource.
AJ:Interesting that's a lot of effort gone to to dig those trenches, eh.
Dianne:Oh, the cost.
AJ:It's instructive how our solutions can be unwittingly making our problems worse. Absolutely, I guess. Do you do that with your own method.
Dianne:Our solutions can be unwittingly making our problems worse?
AJ:Absolutely, I guess. Do you do that with your own method? Do you sort of take each step lightly, just in case it sort of proves to be counterproductive?
Ian:Absolutely. Yeah, I've got a saying if we're slightly unsure about a new move, we throw a bob each way. So you know, you just do a bit about it a bit and learn and see what happens. But the important thing is actually to have a go and learn because really you're probably not doing enough. If you're not making enough mistakes, just try and make them smaller. Yeah, absolutely Less than the impact sometimes. But you've got to be out there having a go and trying new things all the time. You know, we're always improving the system and some things you think you're improving it and not quite right, so you've just got to readjust it. We're all still learning. In a system like this, where you're not killing anything, you can get out there in the field, you can chew on those plants, you can dig in the soil and you know there's nothing there that's going to harm you, you know. So that's the good thing about it you can pick up that plant and you can just chew on it and it's fine.
Dianne:I'll just go over here, anthony, because that was a spot where really quite badly wind blown.
Ian:That was one of the last crops that went in, because it was just blowing and because it was such a dry seeding we just never really had the occasion to get it damp to put it in. So we put it in last, on a small rainfall event, which we were able to stabilise it a bit and get it away, and so now the crop's up and going and it's a really good result.
AJ:And that was sand, almost at the time you were seeding.
Ian:Yep, just I think Matthew showed you the photos.
AJ:Yeah, I wondered if it was the same place. That was the place. Yes, that is amazing, actually. Let's get this. Let's get this. This is the water we're driving through.
Dianne:Oh, goodness, this is the water we're driving through. Yesterday was dry as shit nature is the best.
Ian:Yesterday we were in drought conditions and now we're sloshing through water.
AJ:Amazing and all I've seen is water, yeah never been here before and I'm just seeing water better come again. I know because I'm like what are you guys talking about?
Ian:you think we're having your honest on sun? How warm and dry it is. We could go swimming out here.
AJ:So yeah, in terms of disease prevention, the motivation for people to keep forking out for insecticides and the notorious glyphosate. Obviously, In terms of disease, you don't find you're incurring any plant disease with any of these properties.
Ian:Depending on the stage of the property. Sometimes you see a bit of disease pressure on on the plants, but you also see your plant's immune system kick into, into action and you see where a spore might have landed on a on a plant and the immune system's gone up and actually put a circle around that spore and it just doesn't spread a visible circle a visible circle, yeah, and it just doesn't spread anymore.
Ian:It just stays there, it shuts it off. So it's um, it's just about building that immune system in the whole, the whole ecosystem, to counteract it. So when you're looking at insect attack, you know, like the plants, if you've got a good mycorrhizal network running throughout that field and you get insect attack from the edge of the field, those networks will indicate right throughout the field that there's insect attack there and those plants will react. And it's not only just that, because you've got that system going forward, you've got a lot of ladybirds and a lot of predators there to those that insect attack that might come in. So it's just about achieving that equilibrium, that balance.
AJ:And, to the extent you do, employ small amounts of glyphosate.
Ian:Where we'll use a small amount of glyphosate is when we take on a new property, mainly, and if you've got a property that you might have taken.
Ian:Where we'll use a small amount of glyphosate is when we take on a new property mainly, and if you've got a property that you might have taken on in the February, march and you're seeding it in early April, you haven't had much time to really impact that property and you happen to get good opening rains, so we'd rather give it, rather than tillage, we'd rather give it a small amount of buffered glyphosate to get in and actually seed that property and actually get the system happening. But that is also in conjunction with a high microbial liquid inoculation at the same time. So what we're doing is, as you're putting that glyphosate in, you're actually putting the ability in to actually detoxify any of those residues. So that's why with our grains, even on a first year property, we can test them to parts per billion and come up totally clean of glyphosate. Because we're putting on a new property, we go harder and put high microbial level inputs in, like with the compost extracts and diverse extracts and vermicast or vermiculture products to create that detoxification process.
AJ:We were talking about this a bit last night. Obviously that the traces of glyphosate, so even those intact functional systems, microbial systems, can handle glyphosate if they're up and about.
Ian:Absolutely. You talk to brilliant people like Dr David Johnson and he's done a lot of research into which microbes are doing what in a healthy compost, a healthy extract, and when you see those results of and it's not just one microbe, there's numbers of them that can actually detoxify things like glyphosate, and these guys are proving David's proving this up. It's the proof to show that you know, you get it right, you can detoxify these things really quickly.
AJ:Zach Bush talks a lot about this, of course, and I guess I was increasingly intrigued by how far down the rabbit hole he's found we are in terms of just glyphosate alone and its effect on human health. Yet he was upbeat about the prospect of dealing with that, but it's something you're finding in practice right here and again in really relatively quick time frames.
Ian:Yes, absolutely yeah, in dry, brittle environment, you know, with with high loads that have taken on on new properties and been able to detoxify them really quickly by getting it right. So it's a combination of inoculation of the animals and also some of the biostimulants that we're putting in to variety balanced extracts that brings me to the thought about accreditation systems and the like.
AJ:Of course. So you're using bits of glyphosate. You're not organic, you know you're not classified in that sort of premium category, but in many respects you're coming up on other measurements, better than probably what some organic produce registers, I'd imagine. What are your intentions, I suppose, around those accreditation programs you're looking at developing another one or others, looking at developing other ones, or do you just feel like you don't need to play that game? How are you going about? Because you are accessing premium markets? How are you going about doing that?
Ian:just not playing that game. You know you don't want to be tied down into any one pigeonhole where you have to do this and what. What we're doing is into premium markets where we're putting out a um, a um, a story, a production method of how these things can be done. Because if you regulate that too hard these, these tools that we have in a toolbox, when you take on a new property, in that you're better off being in the game and being profitable and having a go rather than saying, no, that's too hard, I can't do it at all. So that's what gets land regeneration happening.
Ian:So if you've got that tool in the toolbox, you can use a slight amount of our intention is to use and all our other properties is to use none at all. But if you, when you take on new stuff, if you can use that as a small tool to start off, if you use it and get it out of the system as quickly as possible, so it just opens up the options to what can be done. At the end of the day, we we've got a population to feed and an environment to turn around. We don't want to be just classified into certain areas that you can't do this and you can't do that. What we need to do is put a situation out there of actually what you can do and how you can go about correcting it.
Dianne:I think one of the key things we've been interested in all the way along is the outcome of what we do so to have the testing to demonstrate that the grains are free. We've tested against all sorts of chemicals not only glyphosate all sorts of mycotoxins, heavy metals, the lot and the grains come up clean of all of those things. So we haven't just focused on one particular issue, so it just shows the capacity of that microbial system to go into any situation and prevent the plant from taking them up. That's what nature's all about working symbiotically so that the plant can be healthy, can be contributing to restoring that landscape, so that the microbes have got a better future as well. So they're working together and, yeah, just showing that the outcome of that practice is clean, good quality produce it's so striking, isn't it?
AJ:how, again in in younger years for myself even I I'd never have thought that including such a notorious poison would be part of a holistic approach to actually better outcomes quicker.
Dianne:It's pretty incredible, though, what we've seen recently, anthony, is just the speed at which you can drop it out, because, like we were looking at this morning, where those summer grasses, those summer active plants become dominant, those winter weeds what we used to think of as weeds um don't proliferate so we've been able to go on a second year property, actually go in there without any need for glyphosate, because those other summer actives are taking up that space where a weed would normally come.
Dianne:But there's not the space because there's already a plant growing there. So, of of course, you can see straight in there it's a lot what coal size has been doing and, yeah, it takes away that issue.
AJ:From a range of perspectives. You've really been talking about not worrying about the things that we sort of spend so much time trying to wipe out in cropping systems and just focusing on what you actually do want to produce and do want to see on the landscape and letting that become the way. It's a real strong metaphor for how to live in general, it appears, let alone do a cropping system yeah, no, it's been exciting to see those things unfolding in just a better way all the time.
Dianne:Nature is always showing better possibilities and I think we're just going to keep an open mind and open eyes and just see, accept and appreciate what's on offer and just think well, there's a far better way and we're still learning.
AJ:And when I hear some farmers say they couldn't possibly try or start trying because their output would drop, and I hear RCS, for example, say sometimes the output might end up being less, but your inputs are vastly less than that, so you come out in front. Is that the sort of scenario you're working with in responding to taking your cues from the land as the primary thing, the primary asset here?
Dianne:it's a bit of an interesting one because I think you might be kicking for slightly different goalposts as well, because we are looking at the whole ecosystem change and that natural capital being built upon. So that is such a critical part of everything we do. So that's probably over and above probably the production outcomes as well.
Dianne:We want to maintain good production outcomes because at the end of the day we have to be profitable, as Ian was saying. But those natural capital things are just so critical going forward and we've sort of been reading those messages I guess globally for a long time about how to deal with climate issues and changing weather patterns and building resilience into your business so that you can withstand some of those shocks, because you know that's the whole point of a shock it's unpredictable. Yes, and you've got to have a bit of bounce back in your business and certainly that's what you know. Working with the microbial system has enabled us to have a bit of bounce back.
AJ:Yeah, I think Nicole Masters even used the word side effect.
Dianne:Your profit is your side effect of building the natural capital that's right and yeah, sometimes the natural capital might come before the profit for a bit on some parts. Yes, because you're learning all the time.
Ian:We've been able to build this operation. It's only as of the last few years that we've actually been building specified markets and tapping into different income streams on that side of it. But we've been able to build this system at this stage and throw our produce into the standard markets, getting standard prices and standard outcomes, and still be profitable enough to grow and build this forward. So what you're saying, anthony, is right. You don't look at the end of the line on those outcomes as a whole of system, of approach, and it's just not about slashing those inputs down to next to nothing. It's just about that balance in between of getting that right and really what money's left in the bank at the end of the day and how simple the system is. And if the system's simple and you're not having to do all the things, how many more acres you can get over so that your productivity, the whole thing all comes into being.
Ian:But yeah, absolutely, some years, if it's a prescription rainfall year and you put plenty of artificial products on, you can go grow a hell of a lot of grain, and other years, if it's dry, you're mighting as much. But on average we've been able to do it without pulling those premiums. And now that we're actually starting to pull those premiums and looking at natural capital, all those things are just an icing on the cake because we're doing it all anyway. I think what you've got to look at is we're food producers and we also have large environmental footprints and outcomes of what we do. And where do you want to sit and position yourself? I know, when you're talking to your customers, not many of them have well, none of them really have any qualms about if they're eating good, clean, healthy food down the line. When you look at other situations where there is starting to be chemical residue problems and different environmental outcome problems, well, you've probably really got to look where you're going to position your business.
Dianne:The nutrition and the microbiome that we've seen in the sheep, because we were looking at microbiomes and that way before it became the in word, I guess because the animals had been teaching us that and that imperative to keep their microbiome intact without drenching and feeding grains and things like that, and then seeing how that animal then interacted with its landscape and co-evolving with that as the soil health was improving, how their health was improving, how the diversity of the fodder on offer was improving, just seeing the outcomes in those animals so that there's now so feed-efficient, water-efficient, highly productive animals of great quality.
Dianne:And yeah, just that's what triggered us to then look at how that could then be transferred into the human food chain and human health outcomes. Because if it can work so well with animals and you can see that, I guess, the epigenetic outcomes quickly in sheep because they breed a lot quicker than what humans can in sheep, because they breed a lot quicker than what humans can and you can see those changes in their generational gain very quickly. Yeah, it's been a really steep learning curve and an exciting learning curve to be able to transfer that knowledge then to putting that food into the human consumer marketplace.
AJ:What lens do you bring to COVID with the microbiome in mind? I mean, you heard me speak with Zach Bush about it and I mean Zach and I could have got on with that. I just thought we'd better move on to other things. But he was really incorporating well, I guess following the the line through on his thinking and research on the microbiome, where the virus mutations as well are considered part of the you know, almost the software update. This is a metaphor he used and that we we need to be less concerned with stopping the software update than with addressing the context out of which these things arise. But what's your take on it through this lens?
Dianne:I think the key thing that's been staring us clearly in the face has been immune system function. We've seen that in the plants and in the animals and when those things are getting along with those natural processes. If you've got that diversity of organisms out there, they've evolved that knowledge and that ability over billions of years effectively to function and to generate health and progression. I guess that's what they call it Soil pedogenesis and perhaps health pedogenesis, I don't know what the term is into the human and the plant world.
Dianne:But that's how it's designed and how it functions. But we've got to just support that as an agricultural system, don't we, as food producers, supporting that microbiome biodiversity? And that's where it comes down to nutrient diversity. A lot of people talk nutrient density, but I prefer to think of it as diversity. And when it's actually encapsulated into a plant material or animal material, under a natural system, the balances and ratios are there in that right manner so that the body recognises it as an appropriate foodstuff. But when we tinker with it as humans and try to dictate or prescribe what is required, I certainly don't have, you know, the authority to feel that I could make those decisions, whereas I think that natural system can and does. So, yeah, that's where we can get that really good quality outcomes. Just talking about health, these animals here are only just coming up 12 months old. They came onto this property to help start it.
AJ:Let's just explain to the listener In front of us. Here we have how many.
Dianne:We've got 500 ewe lambs Still got their lamb's teeth. Merinos never been drenched in their life, never been fed grain in their life, but they know how to work landscape. They've learnt that from their mothers in utero how to be able to utilise the right sort of foodstuffs that this environment presents, and they are in fantastic condition.
Dianne:It's been a very dry year there hasn't been a lot of feed available, but yet they are just so food-efficient, water-efficient, yeah, they're just in beautiful health and then we can use them. Now they can help this crop along and, yeah, really take this landscape forward. But that's where we've learnt from these animals health, and then we can use them. Now they can help this crop along and, yeah, really take this landscape forward.
AJ:But that's where we've learned from these animals showing us how their health and how their ability to do what you wouldn't expect well, especially in that quintessential view of hard-hooved animals on Australian soil, that's more harm than good to have them trampling on the soil and on our fragile soil. But yeah, so you know to be exploring this paradigm that has them as integral and that their microbiome has an effect and even their hooves a positive effect. But even if you believed that the trampling was negative, that the microbiome trumps, that, that's right.
Dianne:I think the microbiome does trump that. But even still, when it comes down to the trampling of the hooves, that's a matter of opportunity. If you restrict those animals to where they can go, then of course that trampling effect can be the positive or negative depending on how well you do that. But what we've noticed? That the animals themselves. They can recognise a part of the paddock that's compacted and they will go and tease that up with their hooves without me having to go and put them there.
AJ:Really.
Dianne:They sense that, they understand that and I've spoken to scientists about that and they recognise where the parts of the paddock are that are weak, where the ones that they need to go and do more manure or urinate or whatever. You can just see the patterns of their behaviour if they're out there with them. Enough on what they need to do. The wisdom of the animals, I think we just haven't really accounted for very well at all. I think the thought that we know more about where the animals need to be is probably fairly arrogant of us at the end of the day, because the animals can do massive things within the landscape if we just enable them to and have their health to the level where they can sense their environment appropriately. They can smell what they need to, choose what they need to and do the job at hand.
AJ:It makes me think of the other thing we spoke about briefly last night because we've just come off the reef Ningaloo Reef around the goldfish, the science that was done on goldfish memory that classic joke being the 30-second memory of a goldfish, but that having again much more to do with the context we put them in, because their memory's actually been found to be well, at least listening to Dr Colin Brown, an 11 month time span he's tested to date, and that's in goldfish, let alone the rest. So the work they've done on sentience and intelligence is just blowing those old ideas out of the water with fish. But again, it says so much about the context that we create for them and then the judgments we make on how they're behaving in.
Dianne:Yeah, it's a striking lesson you often hear the complaint um from people and say, oh the sheep, they go and camp on the weak part of the paddock and that's exactly why they do, because they know that that part needs more microbes, more nutrient whatever it might be.
AJ:So the other lens has that as being a compound problem. Quick get them out.
Dianne:That's right. So it really comes down to knowing your property and what time of the year those areas need to be grazed or don't, and just learning that over time. But yeah, they're doing a job for a reason. They know what needs to be done and we've just got to help them out as best we can by giving them the best opportunity.
AJ:What are the limitations, do you imagine, to the method? Have any occurred or is just the foundation so transferable?
Dianne:I think the foundations are totally transferable because, at the end of the day, if you're supporting a diverse microbial system and every area has its own indigenous microbial population, it's just a matter of enhancing that.
AJ:That's what you're working with.
Dianne:yeah, so it'll be suited to any environment, because that was what was there in place, naturally, anyway.
Ian:Yeah, so what it's actually even developed is, you know, just as part of a whole farming system for us. You know you look at our current operation now. You know we employ a number of people, full-time people, and continue to employ more. You know we make all our own compost extracts, just all these systems that we do. They're all actually made and done on farm. So all that is giving employment. You know it's creating a whole industry just within a farm.
AJ:And that's important to you guys, because you're interested in more than just the country. You're interested in communities out here and getting people back out here, and you've been working with trainee programs that are geared towards people being able to take on their own land at some stage. Sort of a work to own type of program is that?
Dianne:right, absolutely. That's what we're putting in place at the moment and working with a number of people that are looking at investing to help those things to occur at very early stages at this point in time. But at this point we're trying to just train people, encourage those people that have got the passion to want to persist with this kind of things and be wanting to live in those areas. Looking for people with a diverse range of passions, I guess so, whether it's beekeeping or pastured chooks or whatever it might be, there's just such a range of passions, I guess so, whether it's beekeeping or pastured chooks or whatever it might be, there's just such a range of opportunities this landscape can support and the people that want to be part of that. But, yeah, looking at changing the whole business model so that the people with the passion can be supported to go forward and produce food that is optimising health for the consumer plus the planet at the same time.
AJ:You've got a range of houses on these farms that you're acquiring, of course, and in various states of repair, like the country itself, and this is what you're imagining. I mean, people can come out here and, ideally, we are regenerating the whole context in which they can work and live and rebuild community with country out here.
Dianne:Absolutely, and then the ultimate plan too is then to try and create further value-added enterprises in the local community, so bringing back perhaps a local miller and baker or microbreweries, or whatever it might be out in these areas, so that we can revitalise the populations, give the young people something to be here for, so with employment and social opportunities, because that's something that has been eroded as well over the last several decades and been a lot of population decline, and it really shouldn't be, because it is a magnificent place to live and raise a family. We've just got to get those infrastructure, those social infrastructures, back again, because they've been lost.
Ian:There's enough room up here and opportunity and we'll encourage any one of our people or people wanting to come in and 100% support them to whatever venture they might want to start. As Di said, whether they want to start actually raising bees on the property, we'll support them. They want to start raising chooks on the property and have a job and an occupation, learning and doing this at the same time. Just open up all those opportunities to anyone who wants to come in and actually make a go of it and re-bring community out here and work at it. You know, this sense of the country comes first.
AJ:How has been your experience to? I should explain to listeners. This has happened a couple of times. A few grunts under the table. That's not Ian. Up the other end, that is the dog. That's Sam.
Ian:He's having a good rest and he just likes laying under the table, grunting and groaning and farting and carrying on.
AJ:That's right, as long as it's understood. It's not us.
Ian:No, but he's earned his retirement yeah very good.
AJ:What was I going to say? Oh yes, is there a story off the top of the head that you can throw at us that really took you by surprise? Or just affirmed you're like look at that.
Ian:It never ceases to amaze me how things just develop and what comes up when it needs to come up, by not putting timelines on things, by not looking over the fences at things, but just by going with it, like we don't stress, you know, no matter, like this season's been a particularly harsh season, as I said, right up until this rain we had on the other night. It was probably one of the driest starts through and we don't really worry about it. You know what will be will be, but by taking those shackles off, the amazing things that just seem to unfold, and you just let it go and let it flow, and sometimes you get a kick in the backside. You know, not everything's full of hunkerdory all the time you do, but, but generally the good thing about that is you, you learn from it. I think the thing is just to put it out there, no matter what, not worry too much about it, and I think if you're doing good for your environment, doing it right, what goes around comes around.
Ian:You know the things that do happen. Like a year or so ago we'd had a very dry year and heading into the summer we were really looking in our hat for feed and thought where's this going to come from? And we had a cloud burst and got about. I think it was about 30 mil of rain on a certain area to farm and all of a sudden we had 4,000 acres of native grass that we didn't even know was there. 100% cover came up and it just saved our backside and it's just a remarkable things that happen like that.
Ian:I think in another year we also had happen. We had a very wet harvest. We backed the harvesters out of the shed I think it might have been 10 or 11 one of those years and started raining and and and it just did not stop raining. It just rained and rained for days on end and right the way through harvest and most people all had sprouted grain. Everyone around us had sprouted grain because it just would not stop raining. And that year we delivered our whole crop and did not get any sprouted grain at all. And that was something. And we didn't understand what was going on until we investigated it crop and did not get any sprouted grain at all. And that was something. And we didn't understand what's going on until we investigated it. And by pulling the nitrates out of that system and that these plants they probably have more mineral density in the grain. They just didn't sprout. They withheld that moisture a lot better and that actually made us a fair bit of money.
AJ:You know, we we've got top quality grain, where a lot of grain in the districts was downgraded, it's fascinating that you are finding these things out and then going to the books, if you like, or to the scientists, but, yeah, the intuitive base, it's a big shift. Ultimately, you're letting go of control in the sense that ultimately results in the place leading you, in the form of the animal, sure, but also in the form of, yeah, wheat that harvests perfectly well in those conditions as well, that you're not trying to mechanically fix every isolated thing, which is impossible, and we're increasingly finding that. And you know you talk about not stressing. I mean, isn't stress the middle name of farmers? These days, it gets a bit that way yeah, that's what you see.
Dianne:Yeah, I think you touched on exactly the right word there when you're talking about control, and that's exactly what we try and take away. Is that human control over these natural systems. Realistically, we know very, very little about how natural systems truly function. We don't really need to know it all. All we've got to do is just try and do our best to enable that and to just be part of that and with, with a lot of respect, we trust the animal wisdom, we trust that microbial system wisdom and they do some incredible things, like Ann was talking about, with that harvest.
Ian:That was all there purely out of that microbial system function and, yeah, there's some wonderful benefits to be attained, uh, just by allowing those systems to be I think the thing that's amazed me the most are in our travels around the world and talking to consumers how much they are, if they don't know anything about farming, and they can see a production system like ours and what it can do for the environment and for the animals, and that just how much they're behind you. The support is huge, so it ignites people it does.
Ian:Yeah, I honestly think of and I've always said that the customer's not the problem. Here we just got to give that customer the opportunity. And where people have tried to do things different, it's got mixed up in the middle in the process and manufacture in the middle there. Mixed up in the middle in the process and manufacturer in the middle there, the procedure in the middle there. So that's where we've got to have that interconnected relationship, because our customers we've got no shortage of customers out there wanting the right thing- it's very interesting, you know.
AJ:It occurs to me as you speak in my mind then goes over the concept of wilderness, and by any definition. Probably you've just outlined it, but we're talking about human cropping systems and livestock, but in terms of wilderness being out of control and life living the way its instincts are asking it to be lived and it working with a cropping system embedded in it, so it collapses the distinction between the wilderness and those human artefacts of food producing, yep, industrial, agricultural system.
AJ:yeah, it's another fascinating way to think about the collapse between having production over there and conservation over there. Just even wilderness, that idea versus agricultural systems that they, they can actually be one and the same absolutely.
Dianne:Yeah, that's a really great point there, anthony and um, I think that's what we need to continue working towards that that can work together and be as one and still producing foods and there's so much more diversity of foods that we can still produce within this landscape. The capacity is immense. We're only just scratching the surface at the moment.
AJ:Even in the salinified dry wheat bouts.
Dianne:Absolutely.
AJ:It defies everything I've been brought up with, as you say.
Ian:As Di said, you know and it changes quickly you know we can do it all as one and we're not going to achieve it on our planet by setting aside areas of environment. You know it has to be all inclusive, from our cities right the way through our agricultural systems. And we've got a chance. Without that, we're probably going to be pushing it uphill a bit.
AJ:So you talk about consumers being on side. What's the trajectory of change in farmers? This, it's talk of farmers leaving the land, obviously, which has been going on certainly and intensively, as I understand it, for 20, 30 years, but now being talked about as climate refugees heading south. Yeah, but on the other hand, there are farmers coming to you more and developing networks around the place and going to courses more to try and learn more about this stuff. How are you?
Ian:reading it. Oh, it's huge. I think it's very positive. We've had the question put to us why are you out here, you know, on the edge of a pastoral country and we've pushed out here further from where our original home farm was, in this brittle environment, why don't you go down south, why don't you chase some rainfall in some of the blue-chipped areas? And we say you know, a large majority of the world is in a brittle environment. You know, if we're going to make this work, we just can't keep running for the coast or the blue-chipped areas we've got to make it work everywhere, it's not achieving anything.
Ian:And I think you know we've had days here, unadvertised days here you know we'll have over 100 farmers will turn up, you know, from one end of the state to the other looking for information and taking bits out of it that they can. And I think if farmers can see an opportunity and can see a system that's going to work and an integrated system, where they're not at the moment, if they're not getting respected by the value of their product or by their consumer, there's no really incentive there to do it. But if they can see it being respected and they're getting paid respectfully for it, for the work that they can do for the environment, and farmers can see a module that can take and put. I think all farmers want to do the best by their country.
Ian:No, farmers like spraying all the chemicals involved or you know the continual insect attack and things like that, because it just gets to be wear a bit thin, because it's one thing after another and you just get one sorted out and then it's another one and then you just have to add a little bit more on again and it gets to be a vicious circle. I think they'd all like to be able to back off that if they can see reward and an economic module that can take them forward. And that's what we're hoping to do is to set that blueprint and actually show a way forward so the farmers that want to come across can come across. And I think our consumers are the ones that ultimately there's a fair bit of power in their hands of them asking us to come across, and they ask us that with their purchasing power.
AJ:So that's an important thing, important message, if you like, out of this Our discussion right here, and for people who are perhaps on that side of the ledger, the consuming side of the ledger, who might not have tapped into this space before or even known of what was happening in the Wheatbelt, even in Perth. The message for them, to be able to help back this stuff in, is to look for the places where this is appearing. I mean, how can you tell in a supermarket that won't have the label natural intelligence on it at least yet? Is that part of the plan? And what's the message for people? How can they distinguish and get behind you?
Ian:out there in the world Get to know your food producer, take interest and get to know your farmer, your fibre producer, get to know where it's coming from and what the means it's coming from, and then, when you do get to know them and you're happy with what you're seeing, support them.
Dianne:And asking, I guess, the companies that are providing those products in the marketplace well, where are you sourcing? What is your protocol there? What are you doing to contribute to making things you know, changing practices and so forth? So, yeah, I think that's as a consumer. We need to be asking those questions.
AJ:And I guess, in keeping with that, looking for closer to the source in terms of the food itself, like away from processed food, is a bottom line where, again, you can't do food in a controlled, mechanised fashion and get all the benefits that you're talking about.
Ian:Well, I think COVID's probably been a good thing. There's been a lot of talk in the media and around the world about immune system function. Is this one of our first line of defence against it's COVID now, what's it going to be tomorrow? Something else and then something else the next day? We can't just keep running down and hiding and closing down world communities to try and isolate from things. We've got to build immune system function and the way we start building our immune system function is from our soil up and the food that we're eating. So there's a large message coming out and if there's ever the time to actually start to push this message is let's just get behind the companies that are sourcing the food to support the farmers and the consumers that are going to the companies and the consumers going direct to farmers and let's just get this big movement going, because we have to get immune system function going.
Dianne:I think there's a beautiful example of that, Like you mentioned earlier, the bakery we're supplying in North Perth during this COVID time. He has been run off his feet and he only set up business in december of 2019. He hadn't been in business very long before covid hit and it could have really taken him out because he hadn't had a lot of time to establish a customer base, yeah, but yet he was just swamped with people wanting to access the flour.
Dianne:They knew the flour had nutrient diversity, had microbial integrity, and he has just absolutely blossomed by providing the right service. So milling the grain fresh on site, so it's optimising its nutritional content to the consumer. And the people have just been flocking because they realise that by consuming that as a foodstuff they're boosting their immune system function and their microbiome. So it's been an amazing journey for him and we've been just so excited to see that for him, because he's put a lot of effort into and a lot of courage to take that step and invest in himself to do that, provide that service.
Ian:It's amazing the human body, when it actually senses what's right for it and even though you mightn't have been there in your life or whatever, and how it can, actually that's your craving for that, you know, once you start to get your system right. I look at your young fella last night eating lamb shanks and I've never seen a small person like that eat so many lamb shanks and um grass fed, chewing on the bone.
Ian:Um, doing that, you know he was actually just wanting that kind of stuff and he ate as much as he likes of the good stuff. I think that's the thing you know when and when you have the opportunity to be able to experience good produce, you don't want to go back.
AJ:No fake lamb shanks. No fake lamb shanks. So you know we close with a choice of music that's been significant to you. I've got two, two of my favourites.
Dianne:Yeah well, you're the best.
Ian:Well, two of my favourites is a, and I play them when I'm coming home, when I really want to get cranking. There's a Nickelback. I think it's a Nickelback song. If Today Was your Last Day, oh yeah, that's a ripper.
AJ:And I just really love that. Is it self-explanatory? Why just the title, or did it land at a particular time in your life?
Ian:It's landed at some hard times you know and sometimes, when things you look that aren't quite, you've got to understand. When you're growing a natural crop and a fence away, you've got an artificially fed crop. There's a period in the season where, with the right rainfalls involved, a crop on steroids can look to anyone's eye absolutely magnificent, and a natural crop sitting there putting roots down. And sometimes you yeah, we're only human. We question ourselves and thinking is that crop going to get?
Ian:going now we've got the experience that it is going to get going. It's just got a different process of growing and sometimes you know, when you've got a lot riding on it, you know we've had a lot of debt in the past and um, we've done a lot of, put a lot of things out there and grown quickly and um, and you think about your kids and whether you've made the right choices, and I think that's been one song that I've played and um, another song that I really love is um, lee kernigan's one, um, uh, missing slim, you know, and it's um, it's a song of, you know.
Ian:I look back to what a legend was in our country, you know, and how that all started Beautiful.
AJ:Di.
Ian:You've had bikini time.
AJ:What are you doing Too?
Ian:busy listening Too busy listening.
AJ:When I was young, there was always uplifting type songs. There we go yeah.
Ian:Walking on sunshine and all that kind of thing, so you can really crank up and you just like Jimmy Barnes and all those, oh, just all sorts yeah, did you die?
Dianne:Jimmy Barnes, yeah, so many of those artists. Like your uplifting stuff yeah songs with a bit of a message. I guess you are bathed in sunshine as we speak, that's right.
AJ:Can't even see. Yeah, no, it's been great. Thanks a lot, guys. It's been a privilege to be up here, actually, and great to talk to you. Thanks for taking the time.
Dianne:Been lovely to have you
Dianne:Thanks for coming out.
Ian:Anthony, it's great to have you out here on country. A nd you brought the rain.
AJ:That was Dianne and Ian Haggerty, pioneering regenerative farmers from the central wheat belt of Western Australia. For more on Dianne and Ian and natural intelligence farming, see the links in our program details. I've put some photos on the website too. I've been working at understanding and living in the world along the lines of these conversations for nearly 30 years. All the same, leaving the farm today, I can't help but feel changed. Being on country here, seeing and sensing the remarkable turnarounds in tow and learning more about how the team out here and the rest of the living world goes about it. You've heard me say it before, but I can't help but think it even more now. We really do appear to have the means to avoid calamity and pull off something seriously good together. My name's Anthony James. Thanks for listening.
