The RegenNarration Podcast
The RegenNarration podcast features the stories of a generation that is changing the story, enabling the regeneration of life on this planet. It’s ad-free, freely available and entirely listener-supported. You'll hear from high profile and grass-roots leaders from around Australia and the world, on how they're changing the stories we live by, and the systems we create in their mold. Along with often very personal tales of how they themselves are changing, in the places they call home. With award-winning host, Anthony James.
The RegenNarration Podcast
245. Cultural Economies at the Greatest Rock Art Gallery in the World, with Clinton Walker (in full)
Clinton Walker is a Ngarluma/Yindjibarndi man and Traditional Custodian of Murujuga (or Burrup Peninsula), on the north-west coast of Australia. You might recall my conversations with archaeologist Peter Veth and the co-authors of Songlines, Lynne Kelly and Margo Neale. They all related back to this place – where the Songlines start, as Clinton puts it. So as my family and I headed south from the Kimberley at the end of 2021, Clinton and I met up to record a yarn for the Clean State podcast. That was a shorter snappier format. But on this particular hot summer morning, with so much at stake here right now, and so much to appreciate about what he’s up to, Clinton and I settled in for an extended chat. Most of it became ep.109, still in the top 20 most listened to on this podcast. But today, for the first time, is our conversation in full.
Murujuga houses the largest rock art collection in the world – around one million petroglyphs, some dating back about 40,000 years. The World Heritage nomination for this place is a shoe-in, unless it’s jeopardised by current industry expansion plans. All this remains in play today, including the alternate vision Clinton puts forward, as a former technician with a mining company here, who now runs a highly successful business called Ngurrangga Tours.
Part of this episode was originally released as the last of the Clean State podcast. You can access the old Clean State Plan, and its brilliantly formatted Summary, towards the bottom of the episode web page (below).
For more from behind the scenes, become a supporting listener via the links below.
Recorded 13 December 2021.
Title slide: Clinton Walker (from his website). For more photos by AJ, head here.
With thanks to the CCWA, auspicing organisation for Clean State WA, for permission to re-release this series.
Music:
Stones & Bones, by Owls of the Swamp.
Regeneration, composed by Amelia Barden.
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Clinton Walker. I'm from Ngarluma. In from Ngaluma, I'm from Ngaluma, I'm from Ngaluma, I'm from Ngaluma, I'm from Ngaluma, I'm from Ngaluma, I'm from Ngaluma, I'm from to go. I'm ready to go, I'm ready to go, I'm ready to go, I'm ready to go, eady ae for a m a
Clinton:Yeah, people love it and I didn't realise how much of Australians especially had an appetite for this sort of thing, Because a lot of people realise that they never grew up understanding Aboriginal culture. You live with Aboriginal people. You live on a country that was Aboriginal people's country, with songlines going back tens of thousands of years and sacred sites et cetera, but people never saw it. They lived in a bubble.
AJ:G'day. My name's Anthony James. This is The RegenNarration and that was Ngarluma man m Clinton Walker, traditional custodian of the incredible Murujuga or Burrup Peninsula on the northwest coast of Australia. You might recall my conversations with archaeologist Peter Veth and the co-authors of Songlines, Lynne Kelly and Margo Neale, last year. They all related back to this place where the Songlines start, as Clinton puts it.
AJ:So at the end of last year, as my family and I headed south from the Kimberley, Clinton and I met up to record a yarn for the Clean State podcast, the spin-off series from The RegenNarration specific to my home state of Western Australia. Some of you may have had a listen. It's a shorter, snappier format, but on this particular hot summer morning with so much at stake here right now and so much to appreciate about what he's up to, Clinton and I settled in for an extended chat. So here's the rest of what we recorded together. I've patched in my intro from the Clean State podcast here first to help set the scene for you.
AJ:Murujuga on the northwest coast of Australia houses the largest rock art collection in the world Around one million petroglyphs, some dating back about 40,000 years. The World Heritage nomination for this place is a shoo-in unless it's jeopardised by current industry expansion plans, most notoriously the Scarborough Gas Field proposal currently being challenged in court and elsewhere, with the stakes running far beyond this incredible ancient place. But there are better ways to go about things here and traditional custodian Clinton Walker is uniquely placed to say he was a highly paid technician with one of the mining companies here but he ultimately couldn't bear the harm it was causing his country. He now runs an extremely successful tour operation called Ngurrangga Tours and is living the message that sustainable industries such as Indigenous cultural tourism are enormously beneficial economically for country and for bringing our cultures together. So join us as Clinton sits us down on a very special part of his country for that yarn.
Clinton:Yeah, so hello and welcome to Ngarluma country. My name's Clinton Walker. I'm a Ngarluma man. My family on my grandfather's side come from the Sherlock River, but I've also got strong connections to this side of the country where we're currently residing in Murujuga, known as the Burrup Peninsula in English. Hip Bone Sticking Out in my language, Ngarluma language.
AJ:Thanks, Clinton, it's terrific to be with you here and thanks for having me on Country and thanks for meeting me here. Let's bring listeners into exactly where we are. We'll tell a bit of the story of this place, but where are we and why is it? special to you.
Clinton:So this area, known as Benabarana in Ngaluma language, but it's been known as Hearsons Cove for the last 150-odd years. It's actually a very spiritual location within a significantly spiritual place itself. But right where we're sitting actually like for the listeners we're right on the coast. Yeah, it's pretty much a beach. It's littered with shells. Basically it's just millions and billions of shells here, old coral, all that type of stuff, and we're just watching a little wallaby hopping up on the rocks right now. Beautiful. So it's an amazing place.
Clinton:And I've been coming here for years, you know, since I was a young fellow with my family, my uncle and auntie, cousins, and we used to camp here. We used to come here. None of this road that we drove on that used to be there, just like a little dirt track where we're sitting now under this shade with these bench seats. None of this was here. It's just all proper bush, you know. And beach bench seats none of this was here. It's just all proper bush, you know. And beach, and yeah, we'd camp here, go fishing, catching different things turtles and fish and mud crabs and my uncle he'd teach us all about this area and he'd show us the rock art that's around here.
Clinton:And I remember when I was young, I used to see how my uncle was, the type of things he used to do, what he used to talk about and how he used to show people non-Indigenous, including royalty, you know, like literally the prince and the queen, Really, yeah, charles and his mum around here.
Clinton:And I remember being out here when he was doing that back in the early 90s. I was like I don't know 10 years old or something and, yeah, I remember being inspired by this man who I thought was one of the greatest people I ever knew Late uncle, known as Dee Dee, not supposed to say name, but his Aboriginal name, wurundamayaga, which means woodman, woodman. He was an amazing woodcarver, used to make a lot of different Aboriginal artefacts out of wood, but he knew the country so well and all the stories and he spent a lot of time with the elders taking us as young people out, teaching us. You know our country and our culture and that was an inspiration for me to the point where I decided I wanted to do what my uncle did. And now that's what I do I take people out and I show them the same things I was shown. Yeah, the same things. I was shown.
AJ:Yeah, let's tell some of the bigger story of Murujuga because, as you said in your own stuff, in material I've had a look at, still not many people know this place and what's here in Australia, let alone further abroad.
Clinton:Yeah. So some people may already know what songlines are, but basically I'll go into that a little because that'll help explain this area. But a song line is a series of songs that tell a story, and a lot of people heard about Dreamtime stories, but what they don't realize is those stories have songs as well, and the songs basically they sing about the story, but they connect the story to landmarks, the story but they connect the story to landmarks. And Murra Djunga, from a song line perspective, is a beginning point. It's where a lot of song lines begin. They start here and end up on the other side of Australia, and so as a place of significance, it's one of the most important sites in Australia from a cultural perspective, dreamtime perspective, but not only that. Because we have all those songlines that begin here, those stories need to be told in other formats, and so the format that was chosen was petroglyphs or rock carvings.
Clinton:A lot of people say rock art and there's so many out here. It's like it's crazy how much is out here Over a million. I mean I've seen a lot and still haven't scratched the surface. I've lived here my whole life. I'll be 40 next year, so in that almost 40 years I've lived here. 30-odd of those years are spent in this area, learning about it all you know. Yeah, just when I take people out and show them, it's like it's unbelievable for a lot of people. And then you tell them the age of some things. So like we've got rock art, that's, you know, made 100 years ago or so. That's the youngest People think 100 years is old, but in the scheme of things it's really young, especially when it comes to this rock art yeah, no, in a way it's the fact that it's still been going.
AJ:It's the interesting thing about that. Yeah, it didn't stop when europeans got here.
Clinton:Yeah, that's right and with the age of them, like we've got, yeah, rock artists. You know about 100 years old and then you can. Then you go up from there, then you start hitting a thousand or five hundred to a thousand, then you start hitting a couple of thousand and the next minute you're like in your tens of thousands. So you've got rock art that would have been made around seven to ten thousand years ago and that's when we had one of the biggest climate events in history of the world and that was the rising of the sea levels, which inspired many stories across the world to do with great floods. Some people are aware of Noah's Ark. Well, ngunnaulma people and many other Aboriginal people also have a flood story that coincides with that same time and scientists now have been doing lots of studies and they reckon it happened between that period that I said.
Clinton:But the rock art when you see the rock art that's to do with that flood event, you'll get carvings of, say, a kangaroo or an emu or something that's a land-based animal that people were hunting on the land, and then all of a sudden, this water started coming in and flooding the country where people once lived and their diet had to change because the landscape changed, so they weren't just eating kangaroo and emu anymore, they started eating turtles, dugong, mud crab, you know all the different fish species, barramundi, et cetera. And so they carved these animals over the top of those kangaroos or those emus or whatever to to note the changes in the landscape, in the environment. And so when I tell people this was like 10 000 years ago, you know, and and that is mind-blowing enough for them, because I because when you go and you know, when you look at the rock island, and you tell them, yeah, all this water like where we're sitting now, you know, used to be 150km away. It's coastal and they're like what?
Clinton:It's like, yeah, my ancestors lived out there once upon a time, you know.
AJ:And that Australia, well as we know it today, was like a third bigger or something.
Clinton:Yeah, yeah, it was huge. I mean already huge.
Clinton:but you know, but yeah, it was literally about a third larger and people find it so difficult to comprehend, especially that are from overseas, let alone Australia, because they're like they can't trace their ancestry back even a couple of hundred years. Yet I can tell you what my ancestors were doing 10,000 years ago. They were getting ready for some great big changes. And then we can tell you even further back from there. You know, we can go back 20, 30, 40, 50, 60,000 years. I can tell you my history and that's the connection we have to this place as traditional owners.
AJ:No, it does. For a Westerner, it boggles the mind a bit that those stories are mapped out in country like that and last through those changes, and that's a huge story in itself, isn't it? That the cultures have shifted with those massive. When we talk about sea level changes today and climate changes today, I mean 100 metres plus sea level change. Yeah, this has been navigated by human cultures before and the stories are here for us to read if you like.
Clinton:Yeah, and people are like I hear, like you know, I hear all this stuff today about, um, climate change and a lot of people. People are either for or against it, or some people think it's just a conspiracy theory or whatever. But the fact of the matter is, climate change is real. It's happened many times throughout history. We've all adapted to it as human beings. The difference is my people haven't forgotten about it. We've kept that alive the entire time we've been here. I get asked a lot of different questions, but one of the questions I do get asked is that did your people war with each other? And I tell them no, no, not like in other countries. You know we had scam issues. People fought. It's human nature. But in order for us to have rock art that goes backwards in time and the stability that we've had to stay here and carry those song lines and share it with other peoples right across the nation, that means we didn't fight with one another. Very often I think life was too cruisy to be honest.
AJ:Well, this is some of what we're learning and about Indigenous cultures globally too that the idea of a day where you work all day wasn't part of the thing I mean. This is how the art ended up here.
Clinton:It wasn't working all day. Yeah, it wasn't part of the thing. I mean. This is how the art ended up here. It wasn't working all day. No, rock art was done like basically people's work. You know their daily activity, especially at this time of year in the summer where it's like 45 degrees or 46 or whatever you know, mid to late 40s. Nobody's doing anything during the day. You go and lay under a tree like a kangaroo and just stay there all day until it cools down. You know those Spanish never invented the siesta.
AJ:Original people did so, speaking of navigating big changes, europeans arrive. We've got these places like Barrett Peninsula the English name, as you mentioned before for these places and it was actually an island. It's only been what? 60 years or something, that Europeans decided to fill it in, and pave it.
Clinton:Yeah, so it's been an island for thousands of years. Before that it was a range. But yeah, it has been an island and it wasn't until Rio today. But dampier salt back in the day decided they wanted to build a salt pond so they could extract salt from the ocean and sell it as like a package with the iron ore. And yeah, they changed the landscape. They turned what was an island into a peninsula and it's named after this bar. I'm pretty sure his name was james, but don't quote me on that. You know you'll have to.
Clinton:You'll have to go and have a look we could probably google it right now, um, this guy, he was a, a teller or a banker or something in Robe and he was him and a few others. They were murdered and no money or anything was taken. It was really like suspicious, like there was no reason they should be dead really. But anyways, so he was one of these guys that were killed. So they named this place after him but, like I said, it's known as Murujuga to my people, to all Aboriginal people right across the Pilbara all the way to Uluru. A lot of people know about this place and Murriyuga means hip bone sticking out, and it's because we've got this nickel bay area and the peninsula part of it and some of the islands they poke out in that sort of northeast direction, pretty much northeast, and the way that they're shaped it looks like if you were looking at it from above, it looks like a hip bone, specifically a woman's hip bone.
AJ:Such a feature, isn't it of the well, a lot of the artwork too that we know today that there was aerial view at play without drones? Yeah, drones and airplanes and everything else that's?
Clinton:right and that hip bone sticking out name, looking at it from like, as a woman's body part, like if you look at a woman's hips, they're for childbirth. You know that's the way they're shaped and which means women are creators, they create life. So this as a place is a creation place and that means um, from a dreamtime perspective. We believe that everything started here and that's why the song lines start here and the song lines they're mapped out right and and humans today keep that mapping alive by practicing our law and culture going out, singing the songs, putting boys through initiation and in other places women go through that and and that that initiation process teaches those young people the songs and as they get older and they learn the songs more and more, they start to understand what the songs are about and that you're not just singing about your own country, you're singing about other places. That is someone else's land, where other people are from, and that's the connection we have with one another.
Clinton:But as a place itself, murujuga, it's the birthplace of our creation beings, it's where they came from, it's where we believe they created the earth and then they created the rock art, the original rock art, which was a tool to teach us how to preserve and record our history. And then they passed everything on to us and then they left. They went up into the heavens and told us, gave us a few rules to live by. You know, be kind, all this type of stuff. You know, like your Ten Commandments kind of thing, look after one another. But the main things was look after the land, look after each other and look after all the things within the land. You do all that stuff. You can come and join us up in heaven, basically.
AJ:And you ended up going through these processes yourself as a young fella.
Clinton:Yeah, yeah, I've been initiated and you know I we call it a law law time and um, there was there's. Throughout my life I've gone out and I've, you know, followed my law really, really, really strongly. But then some years, like when I was working on mining and stuff and what would happen is everyone else gets their time off at the end of the year. You know they go and leave and go on a holiday or something yeah wasn't the case for me.
Clinton:I'd go and leave, I'd spend some time with my family, but I'd mostly go out and I'd follow my law and learn about, you know, my history and my culture, and I used to do that for like a lot. And then I was like, oh you know, I need a little break for myself and my family and take them on a holiday. So I started doing a few holidaying things a couple of years here and there. You know, just skip a couple of years from my law. But I'd always go back, always go back, and this thing of following the law it's what the elders call it, what we're taught is following the law is so important to us as a society because it teaches us our connection to our land, where we're from, our history, gives us our identity as a people, but also it helps us to connect to our neighbouring groups and how we're all connected to them through these songlines. So like we might be singing about a place in a songline that you know that we're taught, that we have to teach young people, but that song might be about Uluru or Burunga, mount Augustus or something like that. It's not our country, it's not where we're from, and singing about those places. Understanding the story of those particular sites where these songs take you is so important. And then, because you know about that place and you know that song and we're saying, know the song, know the country, it makes you want to go and see that place. But you know that if you want to go there you can't just go there just nilly-willy. You've got to go and seek permission from the traditional owners of that area. And because you also know that, where you're from, you know your country, you know that song line, you know that story, you know that hill, you know what's good, what's dangerous, et cetera, et cetera. So when you go into someone else's land, you know those same things that you know that apply to where you're from must also apply there. So you know that you can't just go here and there and wherever. So you know that you can't just go here and there and wherever. So you understand that in order to access that place belonging to those people, you have to ask for permission, for status, and then they'll take you out and they'll show you all the same things you would do with anybody else in your country.
Clinton:And that was the thing that Aboriginal people right across Australia practice is first of all looking after country, learning the song lines, the stories, taking care of each other in different ways and also making sure people are following the rules. But part of life was also leaving home and following song lines and learning those song lines. You already know the song, but you don't know the country, so you've got to go see the place in order to understand the story more, understand the song more. You know you can't just stay in one place and by doing that you become more knowledgeable, more experienced, and then you get to know your neighbours better, so you have a better relationship with other people. Once you do that, you don't want to fight them. You respect each other, you know.
AJ:Yeah it's huge how that's just embedded in the whole thing.
Clinton:Yeah, and so what I was talking about, that we never warred with one another and all that type of stuff, and why we have such a strong connection to our rock, art, et cetera. It's because we've got a good relationship with other people and that we share all this knowledge with each other and that people don't want to jeopardise that, they don't want to have a bad relationship with someone because it could mean that they can no longer access that place and learn about those stories. That's how important country is to Aboriginal people and songlines.
AJ:And right now there's a World Heritage application for this place. Do you know where it's at?
Clinton:It's gone to the national level. So how it works is people have to apply for it, the area has to apply for World Heritage listing. It gets on the tentative list, so it goes to state level. State government basically approves. Then they have to carry it forward to the national level. So federal government then has to then put that forward to UNESCO. So that's where it's at at the moment. So that's where it's at at the moment and then UNESCO then decide whether the place, according to a list long list of things, items whether the place is worthy of being in the World Heritage Listing and so some of the things that are part of the list. The tick of approvals is the impact of modern things on this ancient stuff. So right now we've got all these gas plants built out here and mining facilities and the state government wants to build more. They want another fertiliser plant out here and all this sort of stuff, and that could jeopardise us gaining world heritage listing, which is something that should have happened 20 to 30 years ago.
AJ:It's as much of a gimme as any application that's ever been, isn't it? Unless something gets in the way of things like that.
Clinton:Yep, and so that's one of the things that we're worried about is that more industry being built is going to jeopardize our application and, honestly, if we gain world heritage listing, I'll be so happy that people will finally know about this place and how important it is. You know, in terms of the significance of Muraduga, there's a lot of sacred sites in Australia, a lot of very, very sacred sites. The most well-known is Uluru, but Uluru's stories, part of their songlines, come from here, you know.
AJ:But yeah, as you said, there are other agendas at play here and you know these agendas because you used to work for one of the mining companies and you still do cultural awareness stuff for these companies. Yeah, so you're well placed to sort of to be coming at this without demonising anyone and you're keen to do that. You're always keen to make that clear, yeah, but let's start with that personal perspective what your overall thoughts are on the current ideas to expand the gas processing plant, explore another field offshore Scarborough gas project and, yeah, the fertiliser plant and so forth. How would you describe your overall position on that in summary?
Clinton:What they're currently proposing. I'm against it because I know that they want to expand here in Mooran and, like I said, more expansion is going to jeopardise world heritage listing, which will offer more protection, more employment, because it'll boost tourism, etc. Etc. Also, the emissions that they'll be pumping out as part of it, you know, has potential to damage the rock art over a period of time, you know, over 100 years. We could actually see it all disappear.
AJ:And that's aside from the greenhouse effect. That's just direct impact of the chemicals, and so forth.
Clinton:And that's my main concern, because this stuff has lasted tens of thousands of years, and to think that it could disappear in 100 years, that has me really worried. And I'm not against what they want to do, I just don't want it here. And we've got this agreement called the BIMIA, which was written up by the state government, the Barup Maintenance Industrial Estate Agreement, which states that they want to be able to build things in Murugan, which they've done, but also there's an area called the Maitland Estate that they can expand into. So that's the thing that I want to see is, rather than continue building here, go to the Maitland Estate, where there's little to no Aboriginal rock art or any other types of sacred. So there's stuff out there, but it's not like Morro Juga. So the impact is going to be a lot more minimal.
AJ:Where is that?
Clinton:Is that? A bit further south, it's about sort of 10 to 15 k's, just sort of west of Krartha. And why aren't they doing that? They reckon it's going to cost more money. But the gas pipeline.
Clinton:So this Pertaman who wants to build their fertiliser plant say they need access to the gas. Well, guess what? They've got a gas pipeline that goes from Dampier to Bunbury and there's already gas plants built on those gas pipelines right on them. And so, pertman, if they want to, they could build where those other guys already are. And so, pertman, if they wanted, they could build where those other guys already are. And then they're like oh, but we want to be able to pump it out and put it onto the ships. Well, yarra already has that facility. Why don't you just borrow it off them or build one alongside the existing one that they've got and just expand it from here to mainland? It's going to cost a little bit extra money, but you're going to make it back over time and most likely government is going to give them a bit of incentive anyways if they do that, you know, because it's going to create jobs for Australians or West Australians, let alone then, of course, the benefits economically as much as culturally, of world heritage.
AJ:So the state government's, or Australians or West Australians, let alone then, of course, the benefits, economically as much as culturally, of world heritage. So the state government's in a position where it's win-win if they can get this set up right.
Clinton:It's not going to affect anybody really. In fact, they'll all still benefit from it.
AJ:And then there's the International Energy Agency saying we should be building no more fossil fuel gas and oil plants, certainly coal mines et cetera. How much does that play on your mind within this as well?
Clinton:Well, if we have the option to switch to renewable energies and stop relying on fossil fuels, then I think we as a society need to do it, and I saw a list of I don't know like the top 50 countries that you know that use fossil fuels. Australia is basically number one or number two or something as a country that utilises fossil fuels. It's crazy Like we talk about Australia being one of the most modern countries in the world, one of the greatest countries in the world We've got such a good economy, this and that we suck at utilising new technologies.
AJ:Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? Well, now we do. I mean, in the past you'd perhaps say we were good at it.
AJ:Yeah, but yeah, we're stuck on the ones. We've got the incumbents. You know, even Bill Hare, a highly respected bloke, said even gas will be stranded assets within a decade. We're moving away from this stuff really fast. So to think we'd sink again and jeopardise this into those technologies when we don't have to. I mean we are sitting here on the brightest sunny day and we know the wind's going to howl later, let alone the hydrogen stuff that's been talked about a lot, etc.
Clinton:And we've got massive tidal movements.
AJ:It's almost too good to be true. Yeah, and that's to say again, I mean that's just sort of surface level in a sense, to say nothing of the cultural aspects that we've talked about already that run so deep. Let's zero in on a bit of your experience as an example of next economy opportunities, if you like that are coming off well. But let's go to the start. So you're working with one of the mining companies and you've hit a point one day where you think, actually thinking of your uncle, I'm imagining what's been invested in you. You thought I'm going to head out and do what he did.
Clinton:Yeah, so I was actually working for Woodside at the time, but it was in that time Woodside wanted to build a gas plant out at James Price Point.
AJ:The Browse.
Clinton:Field, yep, which I knew because I'd spent time growing up that way, because my poppy was from Beagle Bay and we used to go up around that country when I was a young fella, so I knew it was sacred places.
Clinton:And then they wanted to build the site right and they had all these negotiations with the traditionalists and it caused all the problems that we face here in the Pilbara.
Clinton:But the biggest thing for me was that they wanted to build this plant straight over the top of a song line which they'd done here, and it made me realise like I can't work for these industries anymore and get paid by them and support these things, which I'm against. It goes against what I've been taught, and so I just decided that I'll start my own business. So I started delivering cultural awareness while I was working for Woodside as more or less a side business, but I just wanted to get the education out there, to teach people about the significance of Aboriginal culture and sites and so forth, and when I was doing that, people really, really enjoyed it. They learnt lots, to the point where they said, oh, I would love to do more of this stuff outside the classroom, more on-country stuff, you know. And then I was like well, let's do it, I'll take people out on country. So I developed a tourism business and I've been doing it ever since.
AJ:Did you get much support?
Clinton:or you just sort of went and did it. The cultural awareness that I was delivering at the time was pretty lucrative. I was actually making a fair bit of money from it and that helped. But I did have good support from our community organisations. So, like our Aboriginal organisations, they gave us start-up funds and all that and supported the business. So they were really great at helping us out because they could see the benefit too, because you know, they've got these um agreements with the companies and they need them to understand. You know us and me and a couple of others my sister that were doing that. We were out there showcasing ngaluma heritage and ngi ngi moe heritage, you know, showcasing Ngaluma heritage and Njimari heritage.
AJ:You know we were getting lots of good support, Because that's what I hear a bit, that plenty try but fail if they don't have that support. Yeah, so that seems important.
Clinton:Yep. So overall community supported what we were doing. And then the general community and you know these mining companies et cetera, were very supportive of what we were delivering. And then the tours just got more and more popular. People who were traveling through the area wouldn't normally stop in Karratha because of the cost of living here, the accommodation et cetera, et cetera. But then they started to find out there's an Aboriginal fella going out taking people, showing them rock artics. And then more and more people started to like hit us up and they'd come on a tour and then they'd tell their friends about it and people that they're meeting as they're traveling.
Clinton:And so more and more people started to come and word of mouth was really selling my business for me, you know, yeah, you have.
Clinton:So you were the first I'm not the first, but I'm pretty much the first TO tour company, traditional owner tour company that was doing rock art tours. Obviously there were people doing it before me and non-Indigenous and you know my uncle and that, but he wasn't actually doing it as a business but he was just taking people out. And there was an Aboriginal fellow who had a tour company, but he was, his family, was from Kimberley but he was based here, married into the area and he was doing some good stuff too. So, yeah, like I saw the potential of you know what's here and that people want to know about this stuff, and they did. And then they just kept coming and coming every year, coming back, you know, and it got to the point where I was doing so well at doing the tours that I started winning awards you know, applying for awards and just kept winning lots of awards, lots of gold. And then my name started getting out there in the industry and now, like everyone wants to, know me?
AJ:you know because you're a hall of famer. Now, what is that? That's true.
Clinton:Yeah, I am I'm in the hall of fame of tourism, which is amazing because I'd come from a mining background, you know, in my working background. But, like I said, like I grew up with such a rich culture and I think people could see my passion when I tell it that they just just really enjoyed it. And like I've got I've got a cousin who works for me. He does, you know, vince, the same guy helped me find we found a rock art together like he's working for me now. And I got my nephew and a couple others who who come and work for me occasionally. But there are people out there who see what I do and they want to come and they want to work for me, even if it's on the weekends or on their days off.
Clinton:I've got a lot of family who work in the mining but they love their culture, they want to come and help out on their swings and just get out on country. Because that's all I do. I just take people out and do the things I would normally do anyway. You know, like we go camping, like I'll take people mud crabbing and stuff, yeah, just teach them the things like I would do with my kids, or I've got grandkids, you know, so the same stuff that I would do on an ordinary basis is what people experience when they come with me, so they get into full authentic experience of what Clinton Walker does on a day-to-day basis. You know, yeah, so what?
AJ:effect does it have?
Clinton:on them. Yeah, oh, people love it and I didn't realize how much of Australians, especially um, had an appetite for this sort of thing, because a lot of people realised that they never grew up understanding Aboriginal culture. You live with Aboriginal people. You live on a country that was Aboriginal people's country, with songlines going back tens of thousands of years and sacred sites et cetera, but people never saw it. They lived in a bubble on a suburb somewhere where they didn't get to see none of this, you know, and never had exposure to any Indigenous people you know around them. Maybe a few here and there did, but the majority didn't, you know.
Clinton:And so people were coming up and then they started to realise, oh, we didn't even know you could find bush tucker, like right where we are now, like if people were sitting here, I mean you could describe the area if you wanted, but it's just like. It's like a little car park area, barbies and stuff, beach behind us and we've got some rocky outcrop just sort of there. But right where we are there's bush potatoes, there's lemongrass, there's berries over there. You know, there's um different things over here wattle, seeds and stuff like bush onions over there, and herbs and spices. There's different things over here wattle, seeds and stuff like bush onions over there and herbs and spices on this side to my right, you know, like there's tucker all around us and if we go in the water there's even more, you know.
AJ:Is that to say there's also? I was just speaking to people in the Kimberley who have developed businesses in wild harvesting like native bush products. Basically, yeah, Is that to say there's opportunities for that here too? Absolutely.
Clinton:You know, like I can't do everything, that's right. I'm just I'm happy enough doing what I do. But there's opportunities for you know my family, extended family if they want to get into wild harvesting and all that type of stuff. There's a market there for it already. There is, yeah, and I've met people, chefs especially, who just want this stuff. They love it because the best part of it it's actually uniquely Australian. You know, these foods you won't find anywhere else in the world. You know the things that we get here, like wattle seeds Our green and gold colours in the Olympics is a wattle. It grows everywhere in Australia. They all produce the wattle seed, but there's so many thousands of varieties of wattle seed which means that each has their own distinct flavour. Just imagine if you're a chef and you're like I want to try every single wattle seed that I possibly can and add that to my cooking.
AJ:It's exciting, isn't it yeah?
Clinton:you know, not like you can find that anywhere else except in Australia. Yeah, so things like that.
AJ:In the one hand, you've got this swathe of economic possibilities, but they're all built on culture. So you've got this the potential to bring cultures together to heal intergenerational traumas, and and I mean all cultures as well it's just present everywhere.
Clinton:I think that's the greatest thing about what I do now is the healing aspect for both sides, because now people come see us and we're telling our story. Aboriginal people across Australia I think in the majority has had their stories suppressed in I think in the majority has had their stories suppressed and because of that people became untrusting, unhappy not unhappy but angry towards the greater society, towards government especially. And when people come on tours, you get to be yourself, you get to show who you are, and these people your neighbours, for example like other Australians, come on and then they start to learn their own history of the country that they call home, which they never knew, and then they see it from the people who are the custodians, the true people of the land, and it closes that gap that the two groups had, you know, and so more and more people do. For every one person I take out, they've got a network of people who they talk to, so that message then gets across to that network and then that network has a network and so on, and so it's spreading the word right across, and that's why I also was so successful in my business, because of word of mouth, you know Just from word of mouth alone.
Clinton:I had hardly any money, not money, hardly any money, but hardly any marketing or anything. And I think the biggest thing that made it really good for me was social media. Really, yeah, because photography is my hobby. I've always loved photography. I think we've got such an amazing landscape here that you chuck a camera in front of it and it's hard not to capture it, it's true, but I'm actually very good at it. I'm very good at it. A lot of people love my photos.
Clinton:I get random people come up to me and they're like oh, you take all those nice photos, don't you? There you go, random people come up to me oh, you take all those nice photos, don't you? Or they know me from my tours, but some people just know me from my photos. That social media part of it has enabled people to see what I'm doing, where I'm going, and my following is just like I don't have the biggest following, but I've got a lot of followers and people see, like, when they're here in the touristy, they see it firsthand. But you get a lot of people who don't you know. So the social media is a way for them to like keep up to date kind of thing, and people like they tell me all the time, but they're like man, I've learned more from listening to you on social media and seeing things you post than I've ever in my entire life in my education. It's like that's, that's crazy. That's crazy.
Clinton:You know, like that, for starters, that you don't, you can't learn that in school um generally still yeah, but it's also great to see that people have a way now that they can do yeah, can learn. I feel like I'm responsible now. I've got a responsibility as an educator teaching about Aboriginal culture and country. It's Aboriginal culture, but it's also Australian culture. It's just that Australia has to come on board with it now and people are wanting and that's what I tell people. It's like this rock art just doesn't belong to us anymore. It belongs to all of us. You know, it's not just like it's my ancestors, but we're all living here now. We're all going to look after it. You know, yeah.
AJ:Just for the record, mate, I find that incredibly moving to hear. I mean, I understand what you're saying, I know it's true, but I still find it incredibly moving to have that sort of welcoming, I suppose, and that invitation in. You know it also struck me that the Chamber of Commerce in WA is also frustrated with the lack of diversification of Western Australia's economy from mining.
AJ:They're also saying it's two, all eggs in one basket and it's costing other opportunities, it's squeezing out other opportunities, and this is sort of just one case in point. But it's interesting again to think the divides that we might think are commonplace. Actually there's no divide there. We all want a more enabled small business, if you like, based economy across the state to go with the mining, but with the mining in its appropriate place.
Clinton:And, yes, doing things we need need today, like renewable energy, yeah, so forth yeah, there's so many things that people could be doing business wise, that they could be starting, and you see a lot of small business here in kraft. Actually it's. It's a good place for it. People are finding their own little niches in things. There's so many opportunities for it. You don't have to just do mining, but generally it's like one.
Clinton:You might have a situation with people at home where one partner works in the mine, which gives the other partner the option to do something else, and that means they could maybe chase something that they've been dreaming of doing. And that's how I got into what I was doing too, because I'm split up now with my ex. We were together for over 20 years, but having that support at home helped me to get my business going as well, you know, because, like I left a job where I was making over $200,000 a year, you know, and it was uncharted waters for me, you know, I was like man, man, I'm just going to give this a crack and if it, if it works out, it works out. If it doesn't, then at least I had a go.
AJ:Yeah, that was 10 years ago I'm still here, and this is to say like when we talk about other opportunities, we talk about restoration of country too. Right, because there's such a need for that. Yeah, and not just for carbon back in soils and so forth, but the whole kit. There's a. We've got a highly degraded landscape, which plays into the climate story too, and have you done some ranger work too, or you know people that have?
Clinton:been doing the range. I I know a lot of the rangers, um, I've worked with them and they do an amazing job out here. Yeah, like, like it was something that was sorely needed for this area for a long, long time, because I was out here and if we go back like 20 odd years now, um, I just come out, come out of initiation, and I started my apprenticeship with rio and I was working out here doing my trade as a mechanic and at that time the elders, like they were heavily invested in guys my age, you know, because we're the future in terms of our culture and and so they would teach us a lot. But they, they realized I was probably one of only a few traditional owners working out here and they would put the responsibility on people like myself and say, while you're out there, keep an eye on these sites for us, because they knew I lived in Crowther. So they were like, go and check up on the rock art.
Clinton:So me and a few others, would you know, but I'd come out, I'd just come out anyways and just go do a bit of exploring, look at all the different rock art, art. Just have a mental note of where everything was just for myself as well, um, and then while I'm out here, like I'll just go fishing, crabbing, go hunting, because you get kangaroos out here too, you know. So I'll just go do a bit of this, catch a goanna or something you know. Um, but at the same time I'd check up on my sacred sites, make sure that people weren't disturbing them, and some were. Some people were going and they're graffitiing their names over the top of rock art. Really.
Clinton:Yeah, like scratching their names or spray painting or whatever. Spray painting is all right because it can be removed, but when people scratch over it it's permanent, it's there for a long time. And that used to get me angry and I was like back at that time I was like we need rangers, we need people monitoring this place, looking after it, because suddenly, like a handful of us are here. And then when they started Moraduga Aboriginal Corporation and the ranger program, I was so happy for that to go ahead because I was like finally we got people out here, we got mob, you know, looking after country.
AJ:Fire must be a big part of that too, I'm imagining.
Clinton:Yeah, yeah because they were doing burn offs and stuff as well, because I'd look at the country and I'm like, oh, this party needs to be burned. But I was too afraid to do it because you can get in trouble for it. But every so often I'd do a burn-off. I hear a lot of this, yep, but it's because it's our responsibility. Yeah, yeah exactly.
Clinton:We've got to burn country, we've got to maintain it, and a lot of people don't understand. I think in European history fire is such a damaging thing because people were using it in warfare, you know, and so people have really bad memories of it. But in Australia, fire is a tool that we use to maintain the land. It's like a gardening tool, basically, you clear out the land. Everything grows back nice, like some places. You burn off, you get different foods come back you, you know, like bush, tomatoes and things like that. Or you burn in another area, like some plants need the fire or they need the smoke to germinate, you know, like they can't do it otherwise.
Clinton:So this country is. They call it sunburned land for a reason. You know, so we've got to burn it. It's part of the way of the land. And they call it a sunburned land for a reason. You know, so we've got to burn it. It's part of the way of the land. And if we don't have a fire, regular fires that's when we get the major bushfires, which we know how destructive they can be. We've seen the damage.
AJ:It's happening right now in several parts of the country.
Clinton:Yeah, and then those big fires happen because nobody's maintaining the land, nobody's doing the burn-offs. And now I think Australia as a society is starting to realise we need burn-offs. It's so important because, like, if you live in a forested area, you've got all that old leaves and timber and everything falling down and it just builds up. And it builds up. If you're not burning it off, you've got more and more fuel just caking and then it just then. It's unstoppable yeah.
AJ:There's fire and then there's fire. I mean just listening to you talk about the nuance. There's multifaceted things that you're tending with fire. It's like to get smoke there and flames there and don't burn there. Yeah, there's a cultural art to it. Yeah, as distinct as some of the prescribed burning regimes, meeting quotas and so forth that get a bit big and problematic that we know of down south yeah even up north, I think, where I've just been. Yeah, we then end up just making things worse.
Clinton:It's not the right kind of fire no, I was actually on a couple of tours um this year and we've had indigenous rangers going out and doing proper burn-offs. And as we were driving through, like we're slowing down where the fires are and the tourists are getting like really anxious about it, and I was like no, don't worry. I said this is a cool burn. See those mob there, they're walking amongst the fire while they're burning. And because what they're doing is a coal fire is not going to do any damage, they're not in no danger. And I said and this is how you tell I was showing them. You know, it's like see how the fire. It burns the base of the trees but it doesn't burn the leaves. That's a cool fire.
Clinton:And they're watching and observing for themselves. And then they realize, oh, you're right. It's like, yeah, see, like you can walk along this fire and you won't unless you accidentally fall in it. I'll tell you you won't get burnt Because I'll shout. And I'm like watch those guys, watch how they walk, where they go and how they burn. It's like they don't even. It's not even an issue at all. And then they realize, oh, yeah, you're right. It's like, yeah, see, that's a proper fire, that's a proper burn. I said but it's when we get the big bushfires, those are the dangerous. That's when I won't stop in that situation, you know. And and then they come to a realization like, actually, this is really important, that this stuff needs to happen, you know. But some people need to be shown for themselves, you know, to be able to, to witness it in action, like they did at that time. I think it gave them a lot of good insight into why things need to be done the way they're done.
AJ:Yeah, so again says something about actually getting on country to see it, not just hearing about it. Yeah, there's a few legislative changes in the wings at the moment. One's a cultural heritage reform bill. I sort of can't leave this conversation without talking about a few of these things. They're so significant, and this one's really getting big on the government in the sense that they've come with something that desperately needed to happen, especially in light of Djuggen Gorge and the explosion of the 46,000-year heritage site. But we know even here the thousands of sites that have been lost before we've got to this point here at Muraduga. So it's vital, but it's fallen short. It's still got ministerial veto rights, if you like, while those are denied to native title holders. What's your position on that?
Clinton:Yeah, I think. I just think they're being, in my my opinion, a bit tokenistic about it all making changes, but it's not really changes um yeah, and if you want real change, get the Aboriginal Heritage Act and make it a carbon copy of the West Australian Heritage Act. Really, yep. What's the implication of that? Because copy of the.
AJ:West Australian Heritage Act. Really, yep? What's the implication of that?
Clinton:Because anything within the West Australian Heritage Act that is heritage listed you can't touch. For example, in the South West, in Perth itself, there's some old sewage right in the city, over 100 years old, and now it's been heritage listed. And in order to go and do anything to that sewage you've got to jump through hoops after hoops after hoops.
AJ:I love that that's true for our sewer. Yes, but not true for here, yep.
Clinton:A sewage pipe yes, you know what I'm talking about, literally, surely we can do this. Yes, you know what I'm talking about, literally, surely we can do this so that sewage pipe which we know what goes down in sewage pipes has way more protection than 40-odd thousand-year-old rock art. This is the comparison that I'm making between the two bills, the two acts, two legislation. That's the difference.
AJ:That's really interesting and there is a massive spread of support across cultures, across industries, across fields of study. That recently released an open letter to that effect. So far no movement, but we'll hope there will be on that. Well, there has to be, yeah, on that front. Then there's a book that just came to my attention, springing from the native title success, by paul cleary, title fight have you come across this book yet?
Clinton:documenting no, I haven't, I haven't read it yet. Um, it's got my uncle in there, michael Woodley, and like I think what he's done as a traditional owner going against mining magnate being Andrew Forrest, like you can see that that's a really big thing, that to beat them in court like that's massive and that's good for the thing, that to beat them in court Huge, like that's massive, yeah, and that's good for the people, good for country, and like I fully support things like that. But, yeah, I haven't had a chance to read the actual book yet, which I'm going to read anyways, because I like reading things anyways and just finding out all the details.
AJ:Yeah, yeah, well, that's what the little I've read so far, what stands out. You know, it's really distinct from the flavour of our conversation now where you're charting ways for people to come together, for win-win scenarios to occur, all that sort of stuff. But the Fortescue Mining and Andrew Forrest there was so much shenanigans in what they were trying to do. It just seemed so needless. It was costing them more at the same time and, of course, costing a hell of a lot for the culture. Trying to establish native title and everything that that should mean. It just seems. I'm endlessly curious about it in the sense of why bother, you know why, even not meet just standard industry benchmarks, which aren't that great anyway, but even go hard to try and avoid those? I don't really understand.
Clinton:Yeah, I think mining companies, these major mining companies, these are huge organisations worth billions and billions. I think they have a responsibility in their operations to go above and beyond what is the norm and they haven't been doing that. You know. We know that for a fact. But here's an opportunity for them now. You know Because, like us, as Aboriginal people in this region, ultimately our motivations and our motives and our goals is to look after country. But we understand we live in a modern day and that these things they bring benefits to all the people, including ourselves. So it's not that we want to stop mining. We're not about stopping mining. We just don't want people destroying our sites, our heritage, sites that are significant to us, that are part of our songlines. That's what matters to us, and if they can build a mine that doesn't impact on any of those things, then that's great. But I think mining companies can go above and beyond government and don't just do things for the sake of doing it or for a media release or anything like that. Go and be genuine.
Clinton:I've worked for these companies. I've worked for all of them. I've worked in mining, oil and gas and construction here in the Pilbara and I know how they all operate. I know what they're about. I've worked in different parts of organisations. So I know I've got insight, you know, and because they were doing this and doing that, that's why I left those companies so I could educate more. And now they're actually seeing what I'm doing as a really positive thing and that they're engaging me.
Clinton:You know, like Rio after the Chukan Gordian, like I've been engaged with them throughout the whole year, basically working with them, their employees, you know their management teams and educating them and had such really good feedback. And you know the people who are on the ground, like I know the education of Aboriginal culture is limited and then they come out with us and then they gain a really good insight into why these things are important, why what happened, there was such a tragedy, and they're like, yeah, man, we want our kids to know all these things, we want them to grow up seeing these sites, like, yeah, that's how everyone should be in this country and you guys work, it's not only them. Like it's not a this, I'm, us and them scenario, because my family work in mining you know, that's right.
Clinton:I'm not against mining, like I said, like it's supporting a lot of my people, it's just that. Be responsible. Yeah, look after country. You know they didn't have to blow up that site?
AJ:No, that's it. They blew it up in spite of knowing it's the killer. And that's why there was such a backlash. Yes, have they learned, do you reckon?
Clinton:They're definitely learning. They're in the process of Yep, they're in the process of learning. They understand now, I think senior managers, it's not so much senior managers, it's not so much, no, that's it. Yeah, decision makers if the decision makers are finally realizing, because they're also copying it from their shareholders, yeah, exactly, you know shareholders are like whoa, this, you know, just gonna impact not only the shares but just morally, like they've got kids and stuff too. It's like, oh, you own a piece of a company that destroyed some of the oldest heritage in the planet. You know, like no one wants to be a piece of a company that destroyed some of the oldest heritage on the planet. You know, Like no one wants to be a part of that. You know.
AJ:Exactly. So, when you say they need to take more responsibility. That responsibility I mean with the Cultural Heritage Reform Bill. It's an example where it could kick in. No, where they almost give not permission but sort of some kind of licence to the state government. To no, you really should be giving native title holders, for example, final say on what sites need to be avoided with these activities. It seems to be an example where, if they did that, I can imagine it would change things.
Clinton:Yeah, it would absolutely change it, especially with their relationship with traditional owners, For example, if they knew about the Djugan Goyd like hindsight is such a beautiful thing when you know. But at the time they could have said, like we understand, this is a really important site. What's 130 million, you know? Whatever it was worth that particular area. Or they could have been like we'll take 70% of the area away from where the actual gorge was, We'll go a bit more back this way if they had to, and we'll preserve that area, or let's just not touch it.
Clinton:There's so many things they could have done. Like they say shoulda, coulda, wouldas. But I think now they realize they're stuffed up and I know something like that ain't going to happen again, especially within rio. But it's the other companies too that yeah. Yeah, we got to also be mindful because remember what people, what the general public, have to realize yeah, rio did the deed, but it's the government that approved it. They were well within their legal rights to do what they did. Yeah, that's why no one's prosecuted. But morally, we know what they did was wrong. And that's where we've got to start making people and companies and our own government as voters, voters accountable and say look, make some real changes here, Otherwise we'll get someone else to run this place. That's what we can do as the average voter. You know that's the power we hold. Let's make the governments who have created these laws and streamlined all these things that happened in the past accountable and actually do something really positive.
AJ:The other act that stands out is the Land Administration Act. That's also on the cusp of changing, and one of the benefits of it is that it's claiming that it'll enable many more possibilities for native title holders. Is that something that is present for people here that you're looking forward to, or what's the?
Clinton:feeling there? Um, I actually haven't had a look at it yet, but I think, as native title groups, there's so much more power we need to have in terms of what goes on in our country. I've been on the board of my native title body and it's a struggle. It's been a struggle in the past because we're going up against a system where we don't hold the keys, we don't hold the power and you're trying to work within that and it just makes things really, really hard when you're negotiating. You know, when you're trying to look after country, all these type of things, it's really difficult.
AJ:So the more power that can come back in the hands of traditional owners in our PBCs, prescribed body corporates, native title entities that can only be a good thing, I think again for all of us, because then you know you're getting a genuine, a mutual learning thing going on, as opposed to sitting here high and mighty on the other side of the fence knowing that you're captive to me ultimately, yeah like it always has been since the europeans arrived.
Clinton:Yeah, and that's. That's a problem. Like we've always been spoken at, we've never been on equal playing field in any way, including in legislation, and that has to change. We're the first people of this land. Our ancestry goes back thousands and thousands of years, yet we're the ones who are the last ones to know about this, last ones to be spoken to about things and the last ones to be able to do anything about anything, and that needs to change. You can't call us First Nations if we're never first in anything you know.
Clinton:How would you describe the vision for this place that you carry within yourself and I think Murujuga, and specifically Murujuga, I think has a lot of potential to be like a place where people will come and learn about and it'll help them want to learn more about other places. You know people go to Uluru, but they go to Uluru. It's a cultural place, spiritual place, but some people they just go there because it's just a big rock. You know, and you know they used to climb the rock. For example, the people from there said no, don't climb it, it's not only dangerous, our culture says you're not supposed to climb it. You know, yet here are the traditional owners who have ownership over that land and people going against their wishes and then they finally close it down and everyone kicked up a big stink about it.
Clinton:But it's like it's better for the place and people are realizing that now and um, I just think that morauga can become a place of spiritual significance for people because if they learn properly about the history of this area, they know that the song lines all come from here and if you want to know this story, that story about this and that that connects in different parts of Australia, you've got to come here to learn them, because that's where they begin. You know, and like our desert neighbours, whom we go out and practise our law and culture with our law time, you know, and put our voice for initiation and vice versa. These are people who live thousands and thousands of kilometres away from the coastline, half of them never even been here. Yet they know this place and they know how special it is. You know, because they're given that education and that's what I want the rest of Australia and the world to have. It's like let's look after country and culture, because country and culture go together. They're not separate.
AJ:Alright, mate, it's been brilliant chatting. Let's go with that music question. What's? A piece of music that's been significant to you.
Clinton:My favourite band, I suppose, is Metallica. I just love their music. I think they're just great storytellers and they're not singing about country or anything like that. But what I like is that they're great at storytelling their stories in their songs. People listen to their songs and they think it's just all rah-rah-rah-rah, you know like real. But they've got genuine stories in there Epics they're like mythological epics in some cases yes absolutely.
AJ:Like six seven minute songs Yep, yep.
Clinton:Amazing film clips, in some instances as well, that's what I love, and it just reminds me of who I am. I'm a storyteller. I tell the story of the land to people, and I love doing that. I think that's why I like their music, because they tell great stories in a very heavy metal way.
AJ:Is there a particular song that stood out?
Clinton:over the journey. I love Creeping Death because I also grew up in the church. I don't classify myself as a church guy, a Christian or anything like that, but I did grow up in the church and in the Old Testament they've some amazing stories, you know, in the Bible, but one of my favorites is the Emancipation. So this Creeping Death, metallica's song, creeping Death, is basically the story of Moses and freeing his people, but more specifically it's about the angel of death coming in to kill all the firstborn sons of the Egyptians as punishment for not releasing the Hebrew people. That's what it's about.
Clinton:And so the creeping death is saying that no matter how powerful you think you are or how good you think you are, and whether you're rich or not, god doesn't care. And from an Aboriginal point of view, it doesn't matter who you are, how good you are, how big you think you are and where you fit in the scale of the world. God, whom we call Mingala, doesn't care who you are, punish you either way, and that's why we have to look after country, because we know from a spiritual level that if we don't take care of country, country will punish us and harm us and everybody, and it's our responsibility to look after country, so that's why I like that song. .
AJ:Terrific story. Always glad I ask. O ower to you, Clinton. It's been brilliant to chat. Thanks for having me here and speaking with me. CW: No worries, mate. AJ: That was n Clinton Walker. For more on Clinton Ngurrangga tours and the incredible Murujuga see the links in our program details. Thanks to the generous supporters who've helped make this episode possible. If you too, value what you hear, please help keep The RegenNarration going by joining this wonderful community of listeners. Just head to the website via the show notes regennarratio. co. Forwar slas support. Thanks. s always, he music you're hearing is Stones and Bones by Owls of the Swamp. My name's Anthony James. Thanks for listening.
