Paul Hawken: New book out & on tour now

The world isn't broken, it's trying to save you. That's where this one starts. But first, a couple of announcements. One, the launch of a new series on the podcast called Vignettes from the Source. And two, 5x New York Times best-selling author and great friend of the podcast, Paul Hawken, has his extraordinary new book, Carbon: The Book of Life, out now on pre-sale (with a few copies for paid subscribers). He’s also launching and chatting about the book at a few events in California next week. 

Leading off the new series then, is what I’ve found to be an unforgettable last part of my conversation with Paul about the book last year, when we were bathed in sunshine in his home garden back in California. Listening back to it though, it could just as well have been recorded today. You’ll see what I mean.

So today features the last half hour or so of our conversation. In the first part, we talk about the new book, some profoundly wise words on the nature of story, and Paul's unflinching belief in people. Then the conversation shifts a gear, when I ask Paul about his experience with MLK Jr in Alabama as a teen, where he says in the book he witnessed a form of spirituality that really impacted him. I had been moving to wind up our conversation, but this last 15 minutes or so is straight from the source. 

It all culminates in a five-minute ‘world premiere’ reading of the last passage of the new book. If all you do is listen to that … 

Of course, if you’re inspired to listen to more, or to revisit the rest of this conversation, you’ll find it at episode 204. For now, I hope you enjoy this.

Chapter markers & transcript.

Conversation recorded on 27 April 2024. Intro recorded today.

Title slide: Paul Hawken (pic: Olivia Cheng).

See more photos on the website of ep.204 linked above, and for more behind the scenes, become a supporting listener via the links below.

Music:

Synergy, by TURPAC; One Love, by Roy Young; Circle of Life, by Letra (all sourced on Artlist).

The RegenNarration playlist, music chosen by guests.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introducing Vignettes from the Source
• 3:10 Conversation with Paul Hawken
• 8:40 The Language of Climate Change
• 17:37 Finding Transformation in Everyday People
• 28:15 Spirituality and Mortality
• 36:15 World Premiere Reading: Book Closing

Transcript

AJ: 0:03

G'day Anthony James here for The RegenNarration, your independent, listener-supported portal into the regenerative era. Today, a couple of announcements. Firstly, as the 250th episode of the podcast went out last week, I've been thinking about some of the unforgettable moments my guests have shared Of all the conversations, of all the hours recorded over the eight years so far. I'm talking about the passages that hit on something profound and often unexpected. Sometimes it was a moment of transformation for them, or uncanny coincidence or some other pivotal part in their lives. hey just can't explain. At times the word magic has been used by my guests in these instances. It's funny. Even a couple of nights ago, at an event here in Music City, nashville, tennessee, a legend of the African-American music scene on Jefferson Street, Lucius 'Spoonman' Talley yes, I'll share more on him and that street later, related one such story of incredible coincidences, such that he said, without any sense of evangelism, more just searching for a way to express it, god must have been in this. Anyway, whatever your language for it.

AJ: 1:22

I was thinking about all this weeks before hearing Lucius those couple of nights ago and I thought I'd haul some of these micro-stories out of the podcast catalogue and bring them back to the fore as vignettes released here and there. I didn't really want to call them vignettes of magic, or even wonder, or even God, because I didn't want to imply a sense of abstraction or so-called woo-woo. These stories were experienced, grounded realities, but just seemed to come from somewhere else, from far beyond what we can control, plan or even imagine, and they have so very often led to extraordinary regenerative experiences and outcomes. I've long loved John Lennon's line life is what happens to you when you're busy making other plans. These moments could be said to come from life itself, then the source of it all. Anyway, that's the word that felt right to me. The source. P art. ouble entendre too right, given we're hearing from people, often in their places, about their experiences of this nature.

AJ: 2:27

And right on theme, just as I thought I'd call this series Vignettes from the Source, I arrived at a community school near Floyd, virginia, for a podcast coming soon, and the founder, jenny, my guest on that podcast, kindly gifts me her book after our chat. It's titled Consider the Source. What can I say? Leading off the series then? A not so short one. Really, there were so many aspects of this conversation that were unforgettable. Most, though, were towards the back end, as the conversation built.

AJ: 3:03

I'm talking about my most recent episode with five times New York Times bestselling author, paul Hawken, recorded last year in his home garden back in California. Listening back to the part I had in mind, though, it could just as well have been recorded today. You'll see what I mean. What is happening right now is that Paul's extraordinary new book, Carbon, the Book of Life, is out now on pre-sale, and he's commencing a tour to launch and chat about it, starting in California next week. Links in the show notes. A nd, I'm happy to say, Maddy and friends at its Aussie publishers Text have again offered a few copies for paid subscribers to The RegenNarration podcast in Australia and New Zealand. So if you're a paid subscriber on any platform, including the new Substack, with a postal address in Australia or New Zealand and you'd like a copy, just send me a text message via the links in the show notes or on the subscription platform you've joined. Be sure to include your name and postal address. That's with. normous thanks for your support making all this possible.

AJ: 4:12

So today features the last 40 minutes or so of my extended conversation with Paul In the first half. ere we talk about the new book, some unforgettable words on the nature of story and Paul's unflinching belief in people. Then the conversation shifts a gear when I ask Paul about his experience with MLK Jr in Alabama as a teen, where he says in the book he witnessed a form of spirituality that really impacted him. I had been moving to wind up our chat, but this last 15 minutes or so is really straight from the source, and it all culminates in a five-minute world premiere reading of the passage that closes the book. If all you do is listen to that, you'll be glad. Of course, if you're inspired to listen to more or to revisit the rest of this conversation, I'll put a link to what was episode 204 in the show notes too. For now, I hope you enjoy this. Here's Paul.

Paul: 5:10

I really love what Bayo Akamalafi said in his graduation speech to the Pacific Institute here At the very end of the speech. You know it's a very unorthodox speech, the whole thing is very unorthodox and completely different.

Paul: 5:26

As somebody who's given commencement speeches, I was gobsmacked by the originality and the poetry of it. But at the very end he said whatever you do, do not leave here and go, try to save the world. He said, consider that the world might be trying to save you. There was, it's trying to change you. Don't change it. Yeah, it's just like that. So take it in. You know what happens when you really take it in. Just, I mean, grief happens. Good, you're feeling it Well, there's no grief without love. So if you feel grief, you're touching into the very most important part. Somebody asked me at a meeting I forget. They said what's the most important thing to do about, what's the most important principle of regeneration? I said, oh, kindness. Kindness is the number one thing. People get down into details. You've got to do it this way and that way and till and no till. I mean back up, what are we talking about here?

AJ: 6:37

And it's actually kindness to self, by the way, and to that which is not self, if you can find what is not self, exactly asterisk oh, you know, my old mate, frank, was only kept alive, blessed, by public hospitals in australia because of the nature of the way his health situation played out chronic disease and well, and riding his bike everywhere, he'd say, and kept alive by those two things. And, yeah, I remember one day he saw a particular sign. He got to see all different hospitals, right, and one of them had something on the wall saying their mission was excellence and another one had their mission on the wall was kindness and he said give me kindness any day. Reminded me of that.

AJ: 7:23

It also reminds me of something I talked about with kate chaney before I left, that has gone out on the podcast, where even in this nominal net zero report that's been produced by community, with her in the seat of curtain back home, kindness was a thread and literally a page of children's art. It took a child, perhaps. It was love, all about love, touchstones. So just to weave the thread around the book that's coming, carbon, the Book of Life. This is where it came from, because you've done these big compendiums, drawdown and regeneration. This is more the essence of this volume. I gather.

Paul: 8:03

Yeah, I mean, like you and, I'm sure, all your listeners, we're looking, we're reading, we're watching, seeing, thinking, reflecting, wondering, experiencing different emotions from is this really happening? Or is this person really saying what they're saying? Because it's just so diabolically stupid to just poetry and beautiful art and dance and music and expression and beautiful, some really beautiful books I want to call out Karen Bakker again because you're calling out, you know, rachel Carson and expression and beautiful, some really beautiful books. I want to call out Karen Bakker again because you're calling out Rachel Carson.

AJ: 8:43

Yes.

Paul: 8:44

Yeah, I mean, there's some women here who are just making you know, like Suzanne, you know, leaping ahead of, let's call it male science or male-dominated science. Monica, you know, galliano, I mean, I just see that I'm not trying to be a good guy about gender just because I'm a white, male, vertebrate. It's just obvious, you know, and we're all different, you know we all take it in, but for me it's the same really, and I read sort of voraciously and try to take in the world as it is presented by other people, and it just takes me back to the things we've been sharing and talking about, which is where does change originate and where does it get it wrong itself wrong, where does it get it wrong itself wrong? And what I see and I don't want to get too genderish, but the fact is, what I see is a climate movement that is dominated by a male way of seeing the world, and the science was very male-dominated climate science, and so the language has come out of it and, even with due respect to what you're just talking about, it's just so full of net zero, it's just so full of jargon. Yeah, yeah, and jargon is very useful If you're a surgeon and there's two surgeons there and you have somebody who's going to die if the surgery isn't right, from a car accident or this or that, you can speak in jargon. You're not going to speak if the surgery isn't right, you know, from a car accident or this or that, you can speak in jargon. You're not going to speak in full sentences. So jargon is very, very useful.

Paul: 10:27

I mean, on the footy, I mean, they're not talking in sentences, they're not using adverbs, you know. I mean it's declarative, it's imperative, you know. So that's jargon. But we've used it for climate and we have these really strange phrases a net zero, net of what? And I mean what it means is that there's no more carbon going up than there is coming down. You know it's like good luck on measuring that one you can't measure. And that's what I was trying to say. Carbon is a flow and it's inextricably bound with all other aspects of life and that's immeasurable. Net zero is immeasurable. Now, the goal is is admirable. So I I want to make a distinction the distinction.

Paul: 11:09

Yes, it's a met, as a metaphor sure is a metaphor, yeah, and but how about clive and neutrality? You know carbon neutrality. Excuse me, I should have said carbon neutral. I thought about that one for a long time. I said, oh, I know what's carbon neutral Mars, yeah yeah, but it's like how can carbon's not neutral?

AJ: 11:29

Yeah.

Paul: 11:30

It's everywhere. There's 120 billion carbon molecules in every cell of your body. Is it going to be carbon neutral? What does that mean? You know it's that mean. So we have used this language and then fighting, tackling, combating climate change, all these sort of male sports metaphors to talk about the future of life on Earth. And what I'm saying is that they guarantee that 99 point and you fill in the integer there 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6% of the people I don't know where it is exactly do nothing every day about the most serious threat to civilization and human well-being that has ever occurred on the planet. And we have languaged it in such a way as to guarantee non-response and ignorance of it. Ignoring it, I should say not ignorance. And because our language is all wrong, it doesn't connect. And this is what we're talking about. You know, connection, connection requires listening and hearing, receiving compassion, kindness we talked about already, you know.

Paul: 12:38

And to meet where there's commonality, as opposed to top down. I know you don't, we should, you shouldn't? I mean, all these things are logically true. You shouldn't, you know, but drive a dune, buggy other things on, I mean, of course, but it's not how we're going to reach each other and we're not reaching each other that way. And again, I'm not trying to just butter you up or something like that, but when I listen to your podcast, because of the groundedness of it and the honesty of it, of the people and what they've learned and what failed and what's succeeding and how difficult it is, by the way, like it's not easy, but I wouldn't trade it for anything else- yes, exactly.

Paul: 13:26

And that's where we all have to go.

AJ: 13:27

Yes.

Paul: 13:28

Everyone, the whole earth.

AJ: 13:30

And in that sense, why wouldn't you, yeah, yeah, and you close with a really rousing like the whole book in that sense is a. It's a book of wonder in many ways. It closes with a genuinely rousing finale, like a call. I mean, I guess it's that sort of call that you've just made and to feel that from you I don't know it feels really powerful that after all these years and all you've seen and all that that you've seen, even that you still you feel life and its innate regeneration at work and you're calling us all into it.

Paul: 14:08

I think I'm recognizing it as opposed to calling in. I mean, I don't. I just feel like like my life is about curiosities. Really, I'm not a scientist. I write, I learn. I wrote Drawdown because and did it because it didn't exist. That's why Not, because, you know, oh, that's a great idea. I had the idea for 13 years before I started. Is that right? Well, no, actually more than that. It was about 13, 14 years. I kept going around like diogenes, you know, like saying why don't we have a list of the solutions? I mean to universities, ngos, government officials and so forth. Well, you know. Third assessment, fourth assessment this is a serious problem. What are the solutions? Like the Union of Concerned Scientists at that time had five of them, one of them was was get a power strip for your home entertainment center. I'm not kidding.

AJ: 15:06

Yeah, I remember that this is a Union of Concerned Scientists going.

Paul: 15:09

I don't have a home entertainment center. Should I get one so I can put the power strip on you know, use cold water in your washing machine.

Paul: 15:18

It's like, and you know we're screwed if those are the solutions. You know you're, and so that's how Drawdown came out. But it was more of just like, goodness sakes, you know, we know a lot, and we had staff at the Paris COP you know where the Paris mandate came out of, with Christina Figueres, and they went around at my suggestion. I didn't go and just say asking people, can you name the top five solutions to reversing global warming? Yeah, yeah. And some people would say what does it mean to reverse? You know, but that was draw down, that's what it means, and I felt at that time can we start talking about net zero? I don't want to get net zero in 2050 when PPM is 550 parts per million of CO2. That's climate hell. Hey, we got there, we're successful. No, we're not. Unless our goal is to reverse it, then I don't know.

AJ: 16:19

Are you talking about?

Paul: 16:20

just your lifetime.

AJ: 16:21

Yeah.

Paul: 16:22

Somebody else. But we ask them, and these are people, both copies, divided into the green and the blue the blue are the official delegates and the green are all the NGOs and where the action is. And we ask both and nobody could name five, Nobody, and nobody could name them in order. And that's what we knew when we were onto something. Yeah, I mean, this is conference at the parties calling for the Paris Mandate One and a half degrees at that time, you know, to limit warming to 1.5 C and nobody could name five solutions. Now, that was then. That was like nine years ago. So we've come a long way since then. We have Jorn Rockström, we have, you know, we have all. Yeah, Kate Raworth, I mean, we have a lot is going on. A lot is going on In a very short time. It, Kate Raworth? I mean we have a lot that's going on, A lot is going on In a very short time.

Paul: 17:20

It's true, yeah, yeah, but for me it was always about curiosity. You know, Like I was really curious. It wasn't like you know you should do that. Why aren't you doing it? Yeah, that's stupid. No, it was like I want to know, Not like I don't mean selfishly, but you know. It's like I wonder what they are. I don't know. We asked people and staff. I knew quote, quote and I air quotes the top 10 solutions. And then we did the math you know we had 60,. You know, researchers, I was wrong. So, even though I was very close to it, I could with assuredness say these are the top solutions. And now, when I look at it today, they aren't, because they're global solutions and there's no such thing as a global solution. There's no such thing.

Paul: 18:12

So Perth and Botswana and Belgium and Boston are very different places, and so, again, this is about place. It doesn't mean that there aren't. You know, there's an atmosphere that is global?

AJ: 18:25

Of course there is, yes, but the solutions aren't global, where you're going to hear it to full circle, where we've been, where you're going to be able to listen to it. Yeah, it's here. Yeah, yeah.

Paul: 18:35

Yeah, beautiful. So you asked about, really, the latest book. It's just like go back to listening, watching, reading, hearing and seeing the evolution and emergence. You know this extraordinary movement and I do mean it. I've spoken a little bit harshly about top-down sort of government stuff, but this is the most brilliant, thriving moment in human history right now. It's extraordinary and what I mean? Inventive and extraordinary.

Paul: 19:10

I'm not talking about AI. I'm talking about people really discovering who they are and where they live and who they live with whom they may not have understood, by the way, and respect, and coming together and connecting in ways that endure and mean something and being learning-based creatures, going back to being a learner, not a knower, being a listener, not a teller, being a receiver, not somebody in command, in charge. I mean this quality of human being is emerging everywhere in the world and they understand. You know, if we're going to stay here, we have to restore life on earth and we have to go the other direction. From extraction we can see the end of the road. That's very clear. Just pick up the newspaper any single day. Any movie, any movie, yeah, I mean they're everywhere now.

Paul: 20:03

And that reversing global warming, reversing the loss of the living world in its extractive condition is like I mean, people get it, they understand that. I mean people get it, they understand that. And so I think we have to exalt those and learn from them and point to them, as opposed to put our hopes and prayers into politicians, governments, fossil fuels, esg banks. I don't think so. It doesn't mean we should stop speaking truth to power. No, not at all. Do do, please, absolutely more, but in terms of making fundamental change, no.

AJ: 20:51

I feel like drawing on this line to sign that off before we look to wind up. It was from your, your book and, if I get this pronunciation right, the arctic inactitude how they saw the role of the storyteller in a different way, and it was stories that create a state of being in which wisdom reveals itself. Stories that create a state of being in which wisdom reveals itself. I've thought a lot about that.

Paul: 21:20

I'm going to continue to, and you're a storyteller.

AJ: 21:23

Well, this is why I'm thinking about it and thinking about my role, if it's not back on full time in my community, in that community anyway, I feel like there's a community that's around this podcast. Now You're part of that. So, yeah, in wrestling with with my or grappling with my role, and it'll think about that. But I think there's a lot to that and I think it's some of what you've tapped in your book here too. The other thing to make note of is that you are about to go to a different place yourself, because you've been working with the CEOs of some major companies who you're also finding increasingly receptive.

Paul: 22:03

So, speaking of you know those, I guess, larger hierarchical structures you're still finding meaning in connecting there and assisting there well, I think there's a tendency I won't just say for the left, but for those who look at corporate hegemony completely interlinked with the financial system, with banking, with the stock market, with concentrations of wealth etc. And all the assaults really that emerge from that that I think it's important to understand that we're just people, all of us, that's it. Yeah, it's not like these people in positions of power and influence who may be benefiting very much from their role, which is visibly destructive to somebody who's being just objective. I think that they're like us and they have children, and what I see is one by one because I don't see much, you know but what I encounter is that the penny drops it really does. How could it not? I mean, they're charged with being, if they're a CEO of an organization.

Paul: 23:32

That you know, interacts with the world in multiple ways, and so they need to know what's going on in the world. And so they need to know what's going on in the world. And it's not about reading tea leaves, it's about reading the morning paper and listening. And so what I'm observing and this is not true in banking, it's not true in fossil fuels, it's not true, actually, even in climate tech. I feel some people in climate tech are just as driven and profit-motivated as fossil fuel companies, but what I see is people finding themselves having changed because it was their daughter or their who knows what influence precipitated their realization that oh my gosh, oh my gosh, we can't keep going where we're going, and they find themselves as the head of a large company, and they have a choice To drop out, of course, and to go pursue something else and many do, by the way.

AJ: 24:37

Yes, you've seen that.

Paul: 24:38

Or to stay yes, because they know if they leave, it's not going to go pursue something else and many do, by the way. Yes, you've seen that or to stay? Yes, because they know if they leave, it's just, it's not going to go away, it's going to still be there, and so if they stay, then what can they do to transform? And what I see is, in with the CEOs I'm working with, which the companies or household names? They don't talk about it, they don't publicize it, they don't brag on it. They know just do it and do it and do it, as opposed to hey, look at us, look at what we're doing. You know we're green and we're this and we're that.

AJ: 25:17

That's interesting when the greenwashing phenomenon is in some ways spiking. But there's another way.

Paul: 25:23

Well, it spikes and, yes, it is, but the ones I work with do not do that, absolutely not. I mean, they know how ridiculous that is and how pointless it is, and I feel like there's some really, really, really good people out there. Nothing is what it appears to be in the sense of how we get information. It's just not.

AJ: 25:50

It's not. It's why I do what I do. Yeah, and I guess why you do what you do.

Paul: 25:55

Yeah, I mean, you can have local politicians who are involved with who knows what to you know to get the road in front of your beach, you know. And you just say, well, you know. But it doesn't mean that that is ubiquitous, no, that's the thing, that state of confusion, or even corruption, you know Exactly.

AJ: 26:16

Yeah, exactly, yeah, all right, I feel like winding up drawing a thread back to your experience as a teen in Alabama, in a way, where you witnessed a form of spirituality, if you will, and was so taken by it, and it was so distinct from your background and we share some of this. Maybe we'll talk about this another day altar boy histories that could be fun or not. I wonder how you think about your spirituality today oh gosh, the easy question, yeah well, we warmed up um.

Paul: 27:04

Actually don't think about spirituality Really, yeah, I mean because it's a word, sure, spirituality, and it's like it almost feels like a thing you know that you do or you don't do, or you're involved with it, with it and all I guess too, but I think more of, does the different aspects of my presence in the world connect to all other aspects properly? In other words, am I living an ethical life? Am I kind to others, do I listen, am I respectful to self and do I honor those who've come before the wisdom?

AJ: 27:55

keepers.

Paul: 27:56

Do I stay open to things I might have resisted or still do resist? That's kind of how I see it, as opposed to you know, I practice X and I do this every day, or whatever I go in this place, I bend there and so you do have practices too, though.

AJ: 28:18

Yeah.

Paul: 28:19

Yeah.

AJ: 28:19

Is that where you just remind yourself of these?

Paul: 28:23

things. Well, I think any practice is really about recognizing the mind as being. They call it a monkey mind, for good reason. They say 30,000 thoughts a day and there's nothing you can do about that except, you know, get drunk, I mean. And so again, I mean carbon.

Paul: 28:47

The Book of Life is about flow. It's about carbon is a flow, you know, but those are a flow too. Those thoughts are a flow. And to recognize them as that, as opposed to trying to control them or identify or, you know, sort them out, you know, and to see suffering my own, by the way and or success, or praise, or criticism, or, and to take in all the vagaries of what it means to be a human being and not get attached, to see it as the flow actually, and that's not who you are, it's not who you are and that's a difficult thing to do, and there's so many different practices and teachings and exemplars, you know, who really help people see that. But then, you know, we talk about James Nestor. Even he does and just came into it from a completely different direction.

AJ: 30:03

Yeah, as I did with this yeah.

Paul: 30:06

Yeah, exactly, I feel like having met some of the more quote-unquote famous teachers. My feeling is there's teachers everywhere and we don't recognize them. Miguelito picks up my garbage 16 years. Miguelito Miguel is a teacher to me. He is such an amazing being, so cheerful, so happy, so kind, so respectful, so joyous, and we have such a good time together and so forth. So I feel like, as opposed to somebody who's got lots of followers and acolytes and this and a temple or something and flies around in privates you know like I'm not saying they're not teachers too, I'm just saying that they're everywhere, they're everywhere, they're everywhere and to try to be the person who can see it and recognize it and honor it and enjoy it. By the way, beautiful yeah.

AJ: 31:16

Do you think about mortality?

Paul: 31:18

All the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. I mean I think about it too, because sometimes I say it and people say don't say that, don't say that. But I say, you know, the new arrivals are asking the ones who are leaving so I'm leaving soon. You just got here and they're saying what in the you know, were you thinking? You know you can fill in the blank there. I just got here and this is a mess, you know, and you guys are so eff up and confused and I'm just curious to know what were you thinking all this time? And I'm saying well, it's a fair question, it's a fair question.

Paul: 32:05

And as somebody who's leaving soon you know, and my wife and everything. Don't say that, don't say that I said look, that's just a fact. Whatever soon is, I mean you can stay here and still be. You can leave, just because your mind is gone the brain, or you've stopped, yeah, yeah.

Paul: 32:19

But I see it from that perspective. So it's more like mortality in the sense of, oh, I'll die. No, it's mortality in the sense of, oh, you know, I'll die. No, it's mortality in the sense of it gives you a completely different perspective. And if you add the number of years you might possibly live, given where you are now and you know I'm so, so, so grateful, you know I'm in perfect health and I don't know why completely, but I mean I'm certainly attended to it. But if you subtract how long I could live from now to that number, is that I know a 10 year old, 17 year old, 23 year old, I don't know and what they see and what they're experiencing your son, you know, it's 10 years old how they see the world and to look at it from that point of view and what should I? Maybe not should is not the right word, but what do I want to say? Be do, offer to them, because we're all the same and we come and go.

Paul: 33:32

And there's a beautiful thing in Mary Oliver, just an incredible poet, and she says I'm not quoting exactly at all, I'm paraphrasing I see the world today and I know I'm going to die, as everybody is, and to see it with that sense of preciousness and beauty and just like and there's a Buddhist, I don't know what to call it, the teaching, whatever it is but that being alive is so, so special, so extraordinary, so rare to be in a human body and to enjoy what that means to live here on earth. It's as rare as a sea anemone walking out of the ocean going up a tree. Sea anemone walking out of the ocean going up a tree, finding a little hole in the tree and setting up shop. That's about how rare it is to be a human being and if you look at that, at our existence as being, this is, you know, incarnation, reincarnation. I mean, it is so special, you know, to be alive. So that's what mortality is about for me.

AJ: 34:58

I said to someone on leaving Australia that I'd been privileged enough to read a draft of the upcoming book and that it was incredible. You know you've done it again. And she said how does he do it? And I said I know it's part of his genius and it's just to say you, certainly in terms of what you're passing on to the next generations, you are a manifestation of that wonder. It's really something.

Paul: 35:24

It's interesting because my way of looking at it is a little different. You know, my way of looking at it is like is this good enough? Of course, no, no, it's just. I mean I'm really, I'm bad that way. I mean I'm not a good, I'm not so good to myself in that way, every step of the book and reading it and changing this and that I'm going oh my God, this book is going to fail. And who's going to read it? My friends will Maybe. I'll just say they read it. Chapter 2 is like thanks, paul, thanks for sharing. But you know what would be fun right now, Because it doesn't come out until February 25. It would be fun to just read the last paragraph, if you want. Do you want to? Yeah, yeah, if you'll let me.

AJ: 36:13

Totally Okay. All right, take your time.

Paul: 36:15

Okay, ready, yeah, okay. The cascade of troubling information about the future is staggering. In disparity, great damage has been done to the whole of the living world. There is, and will be suffering. Chief Oran Lanz of the Onondaga Nation described a prophecy, foretold a time when the earth became biologically degenerated and the purpose of humanity was lost. There would be two signs. One the wind would howl and blow as never before and the envelope of the earth would be ripped and torn apart, caused by the activity of humankind. The second sign would be the children. Throughout the world, millions of children would be homeless, hungry, exploited and ignored. This is no longer a prophecy. This is heartbreak.

Paul: 37:12

Most of us turn down the dial to function. Quote consciousness, the great poem of matter seems so unlikely, so impossible. And yet here we are with our loneliness and our giant dreams. With our loneliness and our giant dreams, writes Diane Ackerman. People sense something momentous is happening. Barry Lopez wrote we feel ourselves on the verge of something vague but extraordinary. Something big is in the wind and we feel it. We know that if we mean to make this a true home, we have a monumental adjustment to make. We must turn to each other and sense that this is possible.

Paul: 37:55

If you are afraid of what might happen in the future, find the person you respect who does not act out of fear. If you feel overwhelmed, read the biographies of Sojourner Truth or Cesar Chavez. If you think being kind, respectful and polite is ineffective, listen to Jane Goodall or Robin Wall Kimmerer. If you feel ineffective, mentor a child. Help heal a wounded animal. If you are weary of chasing hope, read original instructions written and edited by Melissa Nelson, a member of the Turtle Band mountain band of the Chippewa, to stop the mind from caving in on itself. Go outside. Replace digitized awareness with direct experience. Mend and revive a verge, some solid land, a habitat, your backyard, a relationship. Reintroduce native plants that provide food and sanctuary for pollinators and birds. Learn their names and stories, as Wendell Berry counseled. Be joyous though you know all the facts.

Paul: 39:03

Although we face what appears to be an insurmountable endgame brought about by ignorance, aggression and greed, we also live in the most brilliant period in human history. Breakthroughs arise from breakdowns. Renewal results from disturbance. Regenerating the world is the journey to possibility Vistas open. The extraordinary diversity of voices, social organisms and entities emerging in the world are rehearsing the future. As I wrote this sentence above, a swallowtail butterfly flitted about the window and came in its wings, gently fanning the air above my fingers and keyboard and keyboard Change and wonder.

Paul: 39:48

Doubt and fear walk hand in hand. This is the nameless era. It was predicted, but the common fate of prophecy is to be ignored. The juggernaut institutions that lay waste to sea, land and people cannot endure. Top-down solutions for regenerating life on Earth will fail as well, because nature does not work that way. A beginning is near a threshold and so too is an end.

Paul: 40:18

Without fail, meaningful change begins with one person, one idea, one aspiration, an audacious dream. Singularity is the birthright of the planet and every cell it is the seed of community. Plant it. Doom and gloom are cobwebs. Brush them aside. We seek rapprochement with Mother Earth, the vast and mysterious primordial intelligence that steadily gives birth to all that exists, that sustains all that is. Beliefs do not change our actions. Actions change our beliefs. Complex realities begin as simple acts. Enchantment, humility, respect, imagination and constant gratitude create our openings to the aperture of the living world.

Paul: 41:07

Monica Galeano suggests we stop playing God and instead play midwife. We can't save the planet. It will save itself. The planet is innately regenerative and we are invited to join. The invitation is to create a world that's worth saving. Living species are rapidly dwindling in number. We eat, drink and breathe because of this mantle of life. Do we keep it or lose it? You can't be both cautious and courageous, so choose Focus on what is in front of you. Give yourself permission to fail, leave room for foibles and giggles. Find a restorative movement you can sing and dance to lest creation plays to an empty house. Where you are is where you are most effective. The power to act does not lay elsewhere. Fundamental human rights and needs must be met. Everyone on earth comes first, there's no second. Revive, honor and nourish the wild, bountiful lives that forever astonish us with their splendor and grace. Our intention and our reward are the same To experience and express our irrevocable connection to all beings. It's the only way forward. So you can take whatever you want.

AJ: 42:31

I'll be taking it all, anyway. Wow, I was just listening to the garden singing as he spoke and I thought, yep, the garden singing there too. What a great privilege to share.

Paul: 42:42

Oh yeah, it was lovely to be with you.

AJ: 42:46

That was Paul Hawken, bestselling author and dear friend and supporter of the podcast from almost the very beginning. For more on Paul, his broad array of highly influential bestselling books and other work and how you can take next steps on the Regeneration website. That's his website. Actually spelled Regeneration see the links in the show notes. There are a couple of photos on the Regen. His website actually spelled Regeneration See the links in the show notes. There are a couple of photos on the Regeneration website. That's my website, the Regeneration and more for subscribers on Patreon. And it's. Thanks again to you, generous supporting listeners for making this episode possible. If you've been thinking about becoming a member or other kind of supporter, please consider joining us. Just head to the website or the show notes and follow the prompts. Thank you, and thanks also for sharing the podcast as usual and continuing to rate it wherever you can. The music you're hearing is Regeneration by Amelia Barden and at the top it was Green Shoots by the Nomadics. My name's Anthony James. Thanks for listening, thank you.