The Growth & Challenge to Australia’s Community Independents Movement this Election, with Cathy McGowan

In the landscape of Australian politics, something remarkable is brewing from the ground up. The community independents movement has evolved from a rural experiment to a nationwide phenomenon, reinvigorating democracy in my home country. At its heart, this movement isn’t about profile candidates, big funding or big media, but communities deciding they deserve better representation, and doing something about it.

The results have been striking. Seven new community independents were elected in 2022, comprising a cross bench of 16 in total (with 3 new Greens elected then too). Incumbent independents increased their margins. Other so-called safe seats around the country became a contest too, as the major party vote continued to decline to around 33% each, now level with minor parties and independents.

Leading into the upcoming election on the 3rd of May, there are now 37 community independent candidates running, in every state and territory. These campaigns are engaging people of all persuasions in a way not seen for generations, if ever.

Just before the last election I spoke with Cathy McGowan, Australia’s first female independent MP back in 2013. She wrote a book in 2020 about her experience, and it rapidly catalysed a movement. Back then, she talked of the potential to transform politics in this country by 2030. So leading into this 2025 election, I was keen to know how she was seeing things, as the movement continues to rapidly grow, and so too do major party efforts to marginalise it.

Cathy was kind enough to join me for as frank and positive a conversation as ever, and with some surprising takes on things, even risking sounding like a heretic, she says. We start with a brief exchange on what we’re seeing in the US right now.

Chapter markers & transcript.

Recorded 7 April 2025.

For more behind the scenes, become a supporting listener below.

Music:

Regeneration, by Amelia Barden.

Indi sings for Cathy, with Sal Kimber.

The RegenNarration playlist, music chosen by guests.

Chapters

• 0:00 The Promise of Community Independents (preview & intro)
• 3:00 Cathy asks about US politics right now
• 4:30 Surprised by so many community independents elected in 2022?
• 5:30 What did it mean that all the new independents elected were women?
• 8:30 Some of the blokes to watch this time
• 9:45 The Evolution of the Movement
• 11:45 What did it mean that all new independents elected in 2022 were urban?
• 14:40 Does it matter if the professional backgrounds of independents aren’t diverse?
• 15:45 How to read polls suggesting some gains & losses for community independents?
• 19:14 Gender, Money and Media Perceptions
• 20:25 What to do if major party negative campaigns win back seats?
• 23:40 Is this a more pivotal election given major party collusion to marginalise future independent prospects?
• 26:50 The exponential growth of the community independents project
• 29:18 How Community Campaigns Really Work
• 31:00 Confusions around Climate 200
• 33:00 Is the media ‘getting’ this movement?
• 34:10 What motivates the 37 independents standing at the coming election?
• 39:20 What really excited Cathy about the independents over the last term
• 41:15 Making Democracy Better, Not Breaking It
• 42:35 What most excited us in Curtin and in parliament
• 44:20 Not concerned about the major parties scuppering some of the systemic reforms of independents
• 49:00 The challenge & excitement in applying this community ethos to Agrifutures
• 51:40 Does Cathy still believe Australian politics can be transformed by 2030?
• 53:00 Could an independent be PM one day?
• 54:10 Music

Transcript

Cathy: 0:00

It's not so much the vision of transforming, because I haven't actually got a vision of what that looks like, but this involvement of people in democracy. Absolutely I believe in it And I'm seeing it everywhere, huge numbers of people putting their hand up and saying I want to be involved. What that produces for the country, I actually don't know. All I know it's for the better.

AJ: 0:24

In the landscape of Australian politics, something remarkable is brewing from the ground up. The community independents movement has evolved from a rural experiment to a nationwide phenomenon, reinvigorating democracy in my home country. At its heart, this movement isn't about profile candidates, big funding or big media, but communities deciding they deserve better representation and doing something about it. The results have been striking. Seven new community independents were elected in 2022, comprising a crossbench of 16 in total, with three new Greens elected. hen too, Incumbent independents increased their margins. Other so-called safe seats around the country became a contest too, as the major party vote continued to decline to around 33%, now level with minor parties and independents. And leading into the upcoming election on the 3rd of May, there are now 37 community independent candidates running. See the links in the show notes for a great interactive map of all this. These campaigns are engaging people of all persuasions in a way not seen for generations, if ever.

AJ: 1:40

Just before the last election, I spoke with Cathy McGowan, who was Australia's first female independent MP back in 2013. She wrote a book in 2020 about her experience and it rapidly catalyzed a movement. Back then, she talked of the potential to transform politics in this country by 2030. So, leading into this 2025 election. I was keen to know how she was seeing it, as the movement rapidly grows and so too do major party efforts to marginalise it. Cathy was kind enough to join me for as frank and positive a conversation as ever, and with some surprising takes on things. Even risking sounding like a heretic, she says at one stage. G'day Anthony James, here for The RegenNarration, your community-supported independent podcast, with thanks to incredibly generous listeners like Michael Gooden in New South Wales and Edward Surgeon over in the Middle East.

AJ: 2:38

I'm grateful for your support every day I do this Goodo. nd Ed, thanks for being paid subscribers for over three years now, making all this possible. If you're not yet part of this great community of supporting listeners, I'd love you to join us. Get benefits, if you like, and help keep the show on the road. Just follow the links in the show notes, with my enormous gratitude, as always. Okay, right now, it's a warm welcome to Cathy McGowan.

Cathy: 3:06

N time to be in the US, huh.

AJ: 3:08

Is it what I was just asking someone today, actually, if this feels like a longer narrative arc, everything that's happening at a federal level now, or whether it's something completely different. And she said, yes, completely different. No one knows where it's going to go.

Cathy: 3:22

Gosh will he get away with it?

AJ: 3:26

It's a really good question and this is something that's been enthralling as we've gone across the country that listening to people, including Trump voters, for a year now, pre and post election that's what's really interesting me. There's so many people who, A would have preferred better options and b are saying, hey, this isn't what we voted for, but then there are others saying no one else was serving us, maybe this will. So it's a very. It's not like all of them are rabid.

AJ: 3:56

You know gun-toting media juggernaut yeah backers of the guy that people on the ground are just looking for some representation. It sounds familiar, doesn't it? Yeah, and how are you?

Cathy: 4:10

I'm really well. It's autumn here and it's school holidays. That's all lovely, and then we're just getting ready for the Helen Haynes election. So you know, diving into how best I can support her. Yeah. And everybody else. So that's all good fun.

AJ: 4:24

Yeah, We'll get to that, yeah, yeah, and everybody else, so that's all good fun We'll get to that. Yeah, yeah, you know where I'd love to start this, cathy. It's actually with where we left off, which, funnily enough, was actually just before the 2022 election Was it really. And we've had emails since, but we spoke just before that election. Yeah, Okay, good, If you can think back to then. I'm wondering can you remember if you were surprised by how many new community independents were elected then?

Cathy: 4:54

I thought we might get three community new people up and I knew there were a lot more than I think there were 22 running. There were a lot more than I think there were 22 running. So yeah, it was an absolute delight to get Helen Haynes back, rebecca Sharkey back, wilkie back, but that was good. And plus we got the six new ones on that crossbench. And then another surprise was Dai Lee coming in from Fowler, so she was an independent in her own right. So her getting up was also like oh, that's interesting. So even though she wasn't part of that community independence movement, she did run a community type campaign and won against Labor and the Liberals. So that was quite exciting.

AJ: 5:37

Yeah, I agree, that was often left off the map with these community independent discussions, but I felt the same way. I'm so happy that you are noting that too. And then what was so interesting too for us in Curtin being one of those seats, that was, you'd have to say, unexpected. I mean, it was a four-month standing start in another safe seat, and that got up too. What really stood out to me in that sense was how many women were ushered into parliament this way. They were all women, these new community independents that were elected. But that wasn't an accident either, right? There's a whole bunch of community movement around that.

Cathy: 6:14

Yeah. So it's not so much that there was a whole lot of women who got elected that surprises me really it's that the option of not. I mean the parties are so biased in who they select and it's a built-in oh, I don't know what the word is, but they have a type, who they like, but all the parties do, and that means that many women who don't fit that type just can't play into that game. So there's a whole lot of really skilled, qualified, able people out there who just happen to be women, who can't get into that game because of who they are and their life experience. So that's one thing. So there's a huge number. It's not so surprising. It's just, if you're interested in politics and you can't get into that game, well, where are you going to go? But the other part of it is because it's community-based, that does play to a life experience that more reflects women than men.

Cathy: 7:18

I think initially it did, but I know in this current election there's at least four one, two, three, four men that I know are running good community people. So I just think in the initial sense it was such a, it was such a new way of working that there were and there were so many really competent, qualified women as leaders who could step into that role. But I think as a community independent gets more maturity about it. Many of the men who are experienced in community understand about community organising. It won't be so gendered, but I just think getting going it was a natural place for lots of women leaders whose ambition perhaps had been frustrated in other areas.

Cathy: 8:00

You know, like Kate Cheney, I mean, really she was just waiting for politics, wasn't she? And same with Allegra Spender, and the parties just weren't the right place for them. So it made obvious sense that they would come into this place. So I note the gender, but I don't think it's surprising. I just think there was I can't quite find the words about that describe this frustration with the system. So they had to go somewhere and so the community place was a very logical place that played to their strengths.

AJ: 8:31

Yeah, I hear you. It's been interesting watching this. You know, here too in the States, this gendered backlash, maybe I could call it, and I guess even generally, though, to see that there are blokes stepping up in this way this time is really pleasing. It feels like it was the necessary, as it was seemingly the necessary thing to have women en masse a few years ago, and in the context of the way Parliament particularly was then too, that men would get their act together as well.

Cathy: 9:03

Well, the really lovely one to watch is over in. I come from Victoria, so southwest Victoria, in the coastal seat of Wannan, and it's around the towns of Hamilton and Warrnambool and Port Ferry. Alex Dyson is running there. This is his third time, so it's not like he's new to the game. He just didn't get up. So I just think there's a whole sense of okay, those six teals who got in, they were women but there wasn't men running. They just didn't get elected. Yeah.

Cathy: 9:33

So it's a really and Alex did really well, Like he went from a zilch base so he really increased his following. But anyhow, Alex is running against Dantian, so he's going to do really well. It'll be very close there. Another one that will be close is a guy called Ben Smith is running in Flinders, which is south in the Mornington Peninsula, the southeast corner of Melbourne. So he's running in that electorate as a community independent. Now it's currently held by a Liberal. Whether he's able to crack it on his first go I'm not sure, but I was talking to him and he had his campaign launch last week and 400 people turned up to that. So that's not insignificant. And then there's another seat that I really am watching closely. It's in the Northern Territory, the seat around Darwin. It's called Solomon and there's a guy called Phil Scott running there and again that's a Labor seat. So it's going to be a real stretch for him to win. But I think he'll do really well.

Cathy: 10:36

And often, you know, the thing about this community independence movement is it's not a one-off. You've actually got to build your base, You've got to build your culture, You've got to build your culture, You've got to build your community involvement and then, once you get elected it doesn't stop Like for the rest of your life. You're actually going to have to be doing the work. So it really is important to put the foundations in and winning isn't necessarily winning in your first attempt. Winning is really building a community of practice that's going to be there and provide the support over the longer term. But anyhow, that's examples of three guys. I know there's another guy running in another Victorian seat, Jika Jika. It's again a Labor Party seat and I can't think of his name, Chris, somebody. He's also running down there. So you know those guys. Some will do well, someone, some, some will do a really good job building their base. Who knows really?

AJ: 11:29

yeah, and occasionally lightning strikes, like in Curtin where it was such a short lead time yeah but, as you say, the community building's gone on.

AJ: 11:36

we might talk more about that. It was interesting even at the time because Fred Chaney, an experienced Liberal Party politician and Kate Chaney's uncle, said he had never seen people engaged as they were then, and that was then, let alone where it's come to now. But we emailed soon after Cathy, because the thing that stood out to me, amongst other things was, but perhaps most was that these were all urban electorates that had someone elected and it was ironic, given that the movement started in Indi, in a rural, regional seat.

Cathy: 12:10

No, no, but the thing is that those guys got elected Like it wasn't that there wasn't regional seats, running candidates who did really really well. They just didn't crack it.

AJ: 12:21

Yeah.

Cathy: 12:21

So it's getting elected isn't like? Isn't the measurement of success of your campaign? Like it's one measure, but up in Cowper, kaz Heist, she got within a really tiny bit of winning and groomed the same thing. And then you've still got Helen Haynes and Rebecca Sharkey there holding that regional thing. So I think you've got to be really careful about defining success by the urban ones. They had a particular style about them, but the others, the regional ones, did really well.

Cathy: 12:54

So I suppose I react to this want to separate urban and rural out, because I just don't think it's a valid distinction. It just might just take you longer in the country to get your act together, but it didn't in India, like we got up first go. So yeah, I don't think you can talk regions and urban in this. I think there are certainly differences within electorates, but it does come from what sort of base you're starting from. So in Kuyong, monique Ryan, there was an independent who'd run before her and he had done you know he did all the grassroots work. You know he got organised. So she came in on the back of somebody else. So you can't generalise, because each electorate has their own particular story. And what was it about that that actually enabled them to win.

Cathy: 13:35

And I just think you're doing a disservice to the complexity of it all by just saying it's rural or regional, or it's women or it's not women. There's always. Once you get into it, you can see a whole lot of other trends happening, and a lot of it does have to do with the leadership in the electorate. It has to do with who your opposition is. It has got a lot to do with how the preferences flow. So, yeah, there's always sort of a complexity about it For those of us who get involved. Yes, and it's just. We constantly rile against the easily to be done thing. Is this a rural or regional thing, or is it an urban thing? Is it a gender thing? It's always much more complicated.

AJ: 14:15

Oh yeah, it's music to my ears. It's something funnily enough, as I've heard from a lot of people, even saying get the hell out of the States while you can. You know those sorts of messages. It's been the same message back from what we're hearing with people on the ground and what we learned about some people who were elected, and sometimes community folk who were elected by people at a state level who were voting for Trump at a federal level. So it's all sorts of complexities which I'll explore more, but I've got a question for you too on that note then, cathy, as I looked over those community independents that were elected last time, there wasn't, to my eyes, a great diversity of professional backgrounds. They were, in a sense, still that quintessential parliamentary professional background setting of lawyers and doctors and so forth. What are you seeing on that front?

Cathy: 15:06

Are you seeing a more diverse suite this time around than I'll be seeing from here I can't say I haven't paid any attention to occupations at all because I don't actually think it's not relevant because the community picks who they want and all these people are chosen by their community because the community has decided that's who they want. It's having an opinion about it is so irrelevant and then trying to generalise about it around so I think there's 37 active community independent candidates running in this election and trying to generalise about that from a community perspective, like a local organising team who picked who they want by some other criteria, would take you down a community perspective like a local organising team who picked who they want by some other criteria, would take you down a rabbit hole which would be so irrelevant to anything.

AJ: 15:51

Yep, hear you. I read that there are further projected swings that you described in the regions towards community independence, but perhaps not so much for those urban independents that were elected last time. Is that something that you're observing? And I noted that because all I've seen to date when there has been a community independent elected, is that the margin increases next time. That's somewhat of a pattern, certainly obviously in Indi, so I was curious that this might be the case. It had seemed that if people get a taste of this, there's sort of no going back. But what are you seeing?

Cathy: 16:29

Well, I can't speak. I am not across what's happening in Australia and I certainly haven't been in the city. So I can't talk about Perth or Melbourne or Sydney. I've got no idea really, just what I read in the paper. But what I do know, with the exception of Zali paper. But what I do know, with the exception of Zali, everybody else wins on preferences. So when I read Canberra, journalists mostly pontificating about what's happening, I ask the question have they actually looked at the preference flow? Because it's not the first. Lots of the media cover you know the first or second, who's your most preferred and who's your second most preferred. But I just know in Groom, which is Toowoomba, susie Holt came in second because everybody but gave her their preference. So I'm always sceptical about what I'm reading but I have to look really carefully to see well what questions were asked and did they actually follow through on preferences? So that's one thing, but the second thing I see is that I think it's I have another version of that story about once you're in. You're in Because in Victoria the Victorian government changed not only the funding rules.

Cathy: 17:45

The Victorian government changed not only the funding rules but also we had three independents in the last Victorian government and in my neighbour here was Susanna Sheed, the member for Shepparton, and then her neighbour was Ali Kappa, who's a member for Mali Mildura, and both they'd both Susanna had been in for two, I think, terms and Ali won and Susanna was an incredibly effective member of parliament, independent, and she had delivered so much for her electorate you know, millions of dollars, new hospital, new schools, all this sort of stuff and she got knocked off. And she got knocked off at the last election, I think for a number of reasons. One is that she relied on preferences to get elected and in this particular case, in Shepparton, the National Party, who won the seat, ran a superbly negative campaign against her, basically saying she was Labor-lite and the reason why she was able to get all this stuff was she was too aligned to the Labor Party. So they ran that campaign and while Susanna only lost by, say, maybe 1,000 votes, less than 1,000 votes, it was enough of swinging voters said, oh, we won't give her, our preference was enough. But also this other thing that happened there that might interest some of your listeners is that the Labor Party in Victoria at the last election mostly concentrated on its inner urban seats, which they won, but they didn't put many resources into the country. So Susanna didn't get the benefit of a strong Labor Party candidate campaign and the preference flow that would have come from that. So the Labor vote dropped off enormously and Susanna wasn't able to get enough of those votes to get her in.

Cathy: 19:32

So it's very easy to make those sort of generalizations that you make about once you're in. You're in. But it really does come down to your numbers, it really does come down to your campaign and it definitely comes down to your opposition. Because if your opposition in this case the Nats were more cleverer than you were and more strategic in how they campaigned and run that really strong negative campaign which they did effectively well, it was enough to knock Susanna off and even though she was loved and probably the same number of people gave her the first preference, it didn't follow through. And the same with Ali Kappa. So I do think you have to be those who understand elections, understand it's all about numbers and it's got nothing to do with other stuff. And if you don't actually understand your numbers it's really hard to win because you don't win on, you don't actually win an election on a good vibe. That helps create the environment. But if you don't actually go and get your 51%, then it doesn't happen.

AJ: 20:34

That's really interesting, cathy, because so much of course of the independence movement was built on an ethic of when they go low, you stay high, you go and meet people directly and ideally and certainly we saw in Curtin you transcend that negative campaign. It worked in Indi, it worked in Curtin, so to think that's sort of the underpinning driving force of the movement but not enough.

Cathy: 21:03

No, no, no, no, no. I'm not saying that, I'm just saying that's very important, because that's your competitive advantage. Yeah. Your competitive advantage is you're not like them. But what I've been hearing about what's happening in Curtin is there's an incredibly negative campaign running against Kate Cheney and I think that works. I mean, it works, that's why they do it.

AJ: 21:24

Yeah, and I think that works.

Cathy: 21:26

I mean it works. That's why they do it. So it's got nothing to do with whether or not she's a fantastic member of parliament, which I think she is and has she delivered enormously. It's. Will this negativity, trump, even being your best self and Trump excuse that expression? But I think it does Absolutely.

Cathy: 21:44

The major parties understand why they do it, but it doesn't say the answer is to go negative, like you lose every bit of competitive advantage you've got if you play that game. So you know Kate very likely might lose out this election, but it won't mean she'll be dead. It means that all those people who supported her will come in much more wiser at the next election. So it doesn't, this stuff doesn't stop. So all those 25, 30 000 people who voted for kate, it might not be enough. She'll probably get that same number giving her a first preference. Will she get the next preference? Maybe, maybe not, but even if she doesn't, those that community movement won't stop.

Cathy: 22:24

And I would feeling if, if, if that negative campaign works over in WA I don't know who the candidate against her is, but if it works, I would not like to be that person because, assuming the Libs win that seat back.

Cathy: 22:37

They're going to be up against an organised, community-based I'm going to call it guerrilla movement for the next three years. And it's going to call it guerrilla movement for the next three years and it's going to make that being the Member of Parliament so incredibly challenging because every single thing you do will be scrutinised now because there's going to be such an effective alternative model and I don't think that's a bad thing. I think that would be a really good thing because it would really make that Member of parliament step up. It will really build the knowledge and experience of the community people about how politics really works and it will really sharpen that team for the next election because next time around they'll actually understand that negativity and how it's played and that community group will be more skilled about well, okay, how do you campaign, being your best self and being positive when this happens, and that's important for them to understand that and then to win at that next election.

Cathy: 23:32

But you've got to learn how to do it. You can't just default to because they're nasty. I'm going to be nasty Because that doesn't win you any votes. That just takes you down to the mud and you're absolutely going to lose if you do. That takes you down to the mud and you're absolutely going to lose if you do that.

AJ: 23:44

Yeah, are you seeing it? I wonder, in that context, being aware that there is legislation tabled by Labor that the Liberal National Coalition has agreed to, to attempt to marginalise community independent success in the future, does this make you feel like this particular election has more on the line?

Cathy: 24:09

Well, it's actually. I'll just correct you. To my knowledge, that legislation's actually been passed.

AJ: 24:15

Is that right?

Cathy: 24:15

Because both the opposition and the government ganged up and got it through.

AJ: 24:19

Okay, it just doesn't apply for this election.

Cathy: 24:22

No it doesn't come until next year, I think July next year, okay. So yeah, I think it's really serious. But the thing is to me it's about there's two. I feel a bit heretical saying this because I'm not asking people to agree with me. I suppose I'm putting an alternative view that legislation is about money and donations. So if you're running a campaign based on spending huge amounts of money, it does have a really big impact on you because it talks about how you get money and how you spend it. And it gives the major parties just an enormous advantage because the way it's structured it enables them to put it all together and run sort of national campaigns. So there's certainly it's incredibly advantageous for them.

Cathy: 25:10

But I just keep thinking the community independence, when it's legitimate, is not actually about money. It's actually about that community voting for who they want. And that's why the way the community gets organised is really important. And even though the mainstream media might be running a scare campaign and going vote Labor Liberal, you know the big brands if the community don't want it and the community gets organised, it has no impact or little impact. So that's the strength I think of the community gets organized, it has no impact or little impact. So that's the strength, I think, of the community. Independent movement is actually not thinking. The answer is money and I don't want to take away from the power of money. But if you've got a really good community grassroots organization that's fundamentally integrated into its community, so it's really legitimate and you've got a really good candidate and you run a strong community campaign, I think that plays a much bigger game than putting, you know, trillions of dollars into billboards somewhere.

AJ: 26:11

Yeah.

Cathy: 26:12

Because community is stronger than that. And if community wants something and it works together for it, than that, and if community wants something and it works together for it, I actually think that that is a much stronger strategy than putting a whole lot of money into things. But I'm not at all naive about it. I understand the power of money, but I actually think a combined community is stronger than a lot of money.

AJ: 26:34

Yeah, interesting. So I'm drawing a thread there really, between what you were saying before about the possibilities in Curtin not being the end of the road if it goes one way or another, and similar with this if it happens to be that this legislation does stay in place and apply to the next election. Not the end of the road.

Cathy: 26:54

No road.

AJ: 27:03

No Speaking then of community movement. How incredible it has been to watch and be part of the Community. Independence Project Convention and the exponential growth in participation. Could you describe to us that trajectory, Cathy, how that has grown and how you've interpreted that?

Cathy: 27:18

Kathy how that has grown and how you've interpreted that. So there's a couple of parts of this story and you're asking me, so I'll give my version of it. There are other versions when you talk, not versions. Other perspectives, yeah, other people's roles. There was a lot of people doing a lot of things, so there's a lot of ways of viewing this particular event.

Cathy: 27:39

But the thing that, from my experience, was in 2020, I put out my book Kathy Goes to Canberra and all these people got in touch and said we want some of that and initially I thought, well, I could handle them by the phone, but it was taking up. You know, hour-long conversations was too much. So I said to some of my friends in Indi we had regularly done Indi shares explaining how Indi worked. Could we do an Indi shares so that these people who are ringing me up we could have one event and they could connect, and Indi had already done three or four of those. Indi didn't have enough capacity at the time to do it because it was really busy getting Helen Hayne elected and other things. So the group of friends said, well, we should do this and we agreed that we would take the IndiShares model and make it open to more people. We got caught in COVID, so rather than having bringing everybody together, which we had done previously, we did it online and we opened it up. So in February 2021, we had the first what we called convention community independence convention and there was something like 300 people at that from about 80 electorates. So that was just in response to word of mouth. And then after that, we could see that there was interest. So me and some of our friends formed the Community Independence Project, which was an organisation all voluntary, but it would provide a centre point where people who were rather than just being me so there were four of us people could go and connect, and so that project got underway. And then we had the 2022 election. So we had another convention after that to say, oh my God, what's just happened. And then, 23, we had another one, and in 24, we had the fourth one. So the 24th one was a thousand people from over a hundred I think can't remember the number 125 electorates, and it was people gearing up to this coming election. So there was a lot of interest in how do you get organised, how do you get a candidate going, and it was 12 months out, so there's a lot of good timing. So that's where the interest came from.

Cathy: 29:51

Now, the Community Independence Project is a networking project. It brings people together, it runs a platform, a networking platform and introduces people to each other. So if, for example, you're interested in running a campaign in or whatever in Northern Territory, the Community Independence Project would link you up with other campaign managers or other leaders in other electorates who have already done it and say you guys talk to each other. So it does that networking and it also does regular online Zooms so that some of those people who have already run campaigns can talk about what they've done. So it shares information. But it doesn't actually do things in that sense. But it does a huge amount of networking and connecting and sharing information about what you need to know, how you go about doing it, who you need to contact. So that's the community and it still operates. There's, I think, four or five. I was a director, I'm no longer director, but it does that work and it's got a good web page. So if people listening today want to find out more about the CIP for the next election, they can go onto the web page and link into this group of people.

Cathy: 31:07

Now it's totally different to Climate 200. So people say, well, what's Climate 200? So Climate 200 is a standalone funding body. It amasses money, puts it in and spreads it out and it also does some service delivery, but mostly it's a funding body which is totally and utterly different to the work we do. So they're miles apart.

Cathy: 31:32

And what I love about CIP is it actually builds a national community of practice.

Cathy: 31:40

So when we have the conventions, people flock to that because we've got all the experienced experts are talking about what they've learned. It's not outside experts, it's not people who know stuff. It's people who've had skin in the game, have had a go at running and have got good knowledge about how this might work. So that makes it really different because it's not someone telling you how to do stuff. It's people who've already done stuff sharing that knowledge, whereas C200, none of those guys have ever had skin in the game. They haven't been candidates. So they're money people who collect and that's what their expert is, and they've got a really high profile, which is good for collecting money and dispersing money very useful. Cip doesn't need a high profile because we only work with the people who want to be engaged. They find us very quickly, so we're not about a whole lot of other people doing busy work. We actually are working with the people who are seriously interested in building community, running campaigns and finding candidates. So it's a very different approach.

AJ: 32:48

Yeah, I hear you. It's been something that the media seems to be very focused on, doesn't it? The Climate 200 aspect?

Cathy: 32:56

Yeah, well, they always like money, don't they? And personalities you know Simon Holmes at court. You know a big personality.

AJ: 33:05

Yeah, big family, et cetera. Yeah, yeah, it does. You mentioned media too before. Is there a growing understanding in the media about what the difference is and the movement in general?

Cathy: 33:17

Oh, crikey gets it a bit. They've got a journalist who's been interviewing a whole lot of candidates. The Saturday Paper get it.

AJ: 33:25

Yeah.

Cathy: 33:27

Some of the ABC journalists appreciate it because they've got regional people who are doing work in their regions, so they get it as well. I don't know. I don't spend a lot of time analyzing the media because it's not really relevant to what we're trying to do. It's like it's a, it's an over, it's an. There is an over story, which is, and that's not problem. The fact that they, the main mystery media, doesn't under understand community is like well, that's their loss. Really, it's not really a problem we have to manage.

AJ: 34:01

Yeah, that's interesting. I've often thought, you know, with the phrase doing politics differently, that the movement sort of operates by as well. That doing media differently sounds pretty enticing to me as well, obviously being in the field.

Cathy: 34:14

Yeah, well, that's right, yeah.

AJ: 34:16

I'm wondering, cathy, with all that growth and now seeing what, are there 37 candidates standing.

Cathy: 34:22

I think so. That's what the CIP webpage has.

AJ: 34:26

Yeah, yeah, which is worth a look. It has a terrific interactive map where the candidates are standing and the incumbents too, in every state and territory now, and in that, many electorates. I wondered, cathy, and conscious of what you spoke about in your book too, hay, like the presence of your family, your ancestors, your mum and dad, in why you ran and how you ran, why you stepped up. What have you heard amongst all these people who are standing that motivates them?

Cathy: 34:58

Hmm. So I could talk about the people who are standing. That motivates them. So I could talk about the people who are standing as candidates, but that's not the magic. The magic is the communities who are organising and what drives them. And it's not got anything to do with. It's got everything to do with people wanting a better choice, and I am absolutely sure about that. And it always starts with a small group of people who are dissatisfied with their current MP and they think we deserve better. So five or six people get together and then, if that group of people decide that they're onto something they actually do, that engaging with their community is is there enough interest in this community for something better? So, traditionally, kitchen table conversations or surveys or some form of testing the vibe in the community. And if there's not, nothing happens. Happens, if communities are basically happy with their representation, that there's no movement. So it doesn't matter. You and lots of people ring up and say I'm gonna be a candidate, I'm a great person, I could win the seat, and we say, well, that's good. Have you got a community group behind you? Oh, no, I don't need that, I know I'm really good. Okay, well, that's fine, you run. So they and people do like there'll be.

Cathy: 36:21

There'll be hundreds of independents running this election because that's exactly what they think. You know, I've got a good family behind me, I'm local, I could do all that great run the. It's got nothing to do with this other model of actually representing your community. So the art of the community independence is to actually represent your community. So I and they choose who they think is going to best represent them, based on the research that they've done to do it. And there's success and there's not so success. Some communities pick the most brilliant person who could do it and once they get out in the field people go oh, I don't think so, I'm not going to vote for them. You know, don't like them Not going to work. So that's fine. You know there's no loss that the community has done that, because they'll have another go, because that group of people are not going to go away.

Cathy: 37:17

They'll say, oh, at the next election we need to have learned how do we do this? And has community independence project? Can you put us in touch with somebody who has done the selection process? What can we learn about selecting a candidate who's done it well? What are the criteria? What do you need to know. So they go and learn about that. They do it differently. Next time, pick a more appropriate candidate. But, as what you were saying before, it doesn't stop. Like every election from here on in. It's not a one-off.

Cathy: 37:45

So building your foundations, building your community, building your culture, is just such a fun, for the work is just so fundamentally important. And I can give you another example, too, about why the type of candidate is not so much relevant. I don't think is. I was talking to one of the candidates the other day and I was asking her how it was going and she said we're building community and the campaign is the vehicle for building community. And she said we might or might not get elected, but we know that there is going to be catastrophic events come our way.

Cathy: 38:26

And this community work we're doing is going to be long-term foundation work for our community managing next drought, flood, bushfire, whatever. That's why we're doing it. And she was saying every day she goes out, she can feel her community getting stronger. As they come together, as they work for something, a shared vision from shared values, they're building their community. And she said this is the most important work I'm doing because we know the climate is changing, we know bad things are going to happen, and to have this 20,000, 30,000 people in a community have engaged in this way, we will be in a much better place to do this work. So I think she encapsulated for me what I really think is the driving force, and in between that you get a member of parliament who's going to represent you and help make your governance better, so that your community then will be better able to do what it needs to do.

AJ: 39:26

Yeah, beautiful, I wonder, Cathy, taking a view over the last three years of federal parliament and seeing how all those new independents and the bigger crossbench that almost held the balance of power and certainly had its influence. What I don't know if excited is the word, but what excited you most, what impressed you most or enlivened you most?

Cathy: 39:48

Oh yeah, I can tell you I love watching. I still listen to Question Time and I still love watching when the independents get there and they move their amendments in the third reading speech and get through. But I just want to tell you what most excites me is the other day. One of the projects I'm working in outside of politics is about agriculture, regen, and it's about how do we get the workforce we need in agriculture. So I'm involved in this project and there's an organisation set up called Jobs and Skills Australia and the other day I was on a team with the CEO and the commissioner and the commissioner. I was talking about jobs with the CEO and the Commissioner and the Commissioner. I was talking about jobs. How can we work together and to get the skilled workforce the really skilled workforce we need to do the work we need to do.

Cathy: 40:42

Anyhow, the Commissioner goes Kathy, I know you're really interested in rural and regional Australia and you'll be so pleased to hear that part of the legislation that set us up says that we have got to pay particular attention to jobs and skills and workforce in regional Australia and we've got to report back to parliament about rural and regional Australia very specifically as part of our legislation. I nearly jumped out of my skin because I had heard Helen Haynes move the amendment in parliament to that legislation when they were setting up Jobs and Skills Australia. She moved the amendment to say you must report and make a particular effort on rural and regional Australia. So here her legislation was coming back to me on a topic that was of great interest, and I know she's done that on housing, she's done it on health, energy. So her amendments are going to make the most fundamental difference to how the public service does its job. And because she's there, because no one else did it, the Labor, liberal Greens would never have put that amendment in.

Cathy: 41:41

Yeah, and she was able to get it through. Do the negotiations with Tony Burke at the time and get it through so that, like we haven't done the work yet, we still haven't got addressed the problem of workforce. But to know that the commissioner knows and that when he's speaking to me he knows that I know, oh, it's when the rubber hits the road about why you do this work, so that's really, really been significant for me. So I texted Helen Haynes straight away and said Helen, guess what just happened? And she laughed and she said yeah, it's really good to hear that story. Thank you.

AJ: 42:18

Yeah, it's really good for me too, I mean just as a constituent, because it says something too. I think, about the value of the six years Helen's been at it now and the six that you were at it in the seat prior, of the building value of experience. Really, isn't it the building impact that can be had with this movement? Yeah.

AJ: 42:40

Yeah, it's been. I have to tell you from my experience on the grounding curtain, before we took off last year anyway, was extraordinary to. In fact, what stood out to me first but really strikingly was during the campaign in 2022, when Kate was standing, how people would react, because Kate was essentially going around and saying tell me about you. It wasn't let me tell you about me, what I'm going to do and whatever and what I'm selling or what I'm giving. It was tell me about you and the impact that had on people and I'll never forget. On election night and she hadn't won yet, so this was win or lose there was such a feeling, well, of community, I suppose.

AJ: 43:24

And she said to everyone, it was a packed house at Claremont Showgrounds. Who has been involved in a political campaign? I think it was the other way around who has never been involved in a political campaign? And the whole house puts their hand up.

Cathy: 43:39

It was amazing to see.

AJ: 43:40

And then to see then, a couple of years, as I did before we left, of monthly meet-ups, monthly briefings just in community, monthly meetups, monthly briefings just in community, in parks and halls, work, concerted, well-facilitated workshops on particular issues. Housing was one of the big ones, but multiple.

Cathy: 43:59

Electricity. She did a fantastic job on electricity, yes.

AJ: 44:02

Submissions coming out of those workshops.

AJ: 44:04

So you're having a direct impact and, of course, as you're saying, it's the substrate that's tended Like. We got to know each other in the process and you'd learn from each other, and there's all that bridging of different perspectives and all that sort of stuff. People got to know their electorate. Well, I got to know my electorate in a way I never even imagined, to tell you the truth, if we go back to younger days as a bloke in that area, so that was amazing Then to see in parliament that there was this concerted push from that crossbench to really systemic levers like the one you just described. But we could be talking about truth in political advertising, transparency, integrity, obviously, anti-corruption stuff, stuff, intergenerational responsibility even with sophie scomp's recent bill about, uh, explicit obligation to future generations, let alone all the renewable energy stuff, community-owned aspects to that and and what you talked about last time too just being a generator of innovation, having this kind of engagement those things that I would characterize as almost no-brainer stuff. You know truth and integrity and honesty you know yeah.

AJ: 45:17

Anything that our 10-year-old's been taught as we brought him up to be number one, and then you go live your life to think that that could be applied in our parliament but has been to a large degree again scuppered by major parties along the way. Some stuff obviously got through, which has been enormous yeah look, I'm not nearly so critical of parliament.

Cathy: 45:39

I mean, I know what you're talking about and I know it's talked about, but the thing is it basically works. It basically works really well and it's basically most people are reasonably happy with it. It's the top when you're not, that you get to complain about yes so I am.

Cathy: 45:59

I am much more wanting people to understand that we actually in australia, here we actually have a really good system and it works because people do engage and because we can engage and because the system's open to engagement. Like this whole community movement happened and we could get elected and we could get into parliament and we could do the work we needed to do. Like the system is working and then the system tries to change itself. You know, oh, you're going too far, we'll change the rules. Well, that's okay, that's good in my sense. So then you get to adapt and do that. So that's one thing I always say to people. Basically, it's working. Okay, you got to make sure, at the edges, keep a really good eye on it, because that's where the change will take place. But the other thing that I absolutely know about parliament is that I really should get the actual figure, but about 91% of all legislation is passed collaboratively.

AJ: 46:58

Yep.

Cathy: 46:59

And it's only a very small percentage that's even voted on and it's controversial stuff that's voted on. The fact that the whole nation works, we've got good systems in place, is something I would never, ever take for granted, and so basically the system has got integrity. Basically, the system works really well. Like every four times a year I get called up to Senate estimates in my role with AgriFutures and I've got to answer questions to the Senate on how we're doing stuff, how our money's spent, how we're reporting it, like really tight, really good, really professional governance management. So I don't think people have to worry about the system not working. I really don't. What we want it to do is be better, and the more we can engage in it. The more democracy you put into the system, the better it is.

Cathy: 47:49

I think it doesn't work to hand pass your democracy or your vote to a big party. I don't think that helps, but it doesn't mean to say it's not working. And in Victoria at the moment, like the Labour Party, the current government people basically think they've been there too long and they're going to kick them out. And well, maybe we haven't. The opposition has got a bit more work, but you know there's a whole vibe in the community when it's not working the way you want it to work and you can change. Currently, we change the system, so I'm much more one for talking about what's working and how do we make it better as opposed to saying, oh, it's all terrible, because clearly it's not all terrible. There's a lot of it that works really and in my experience of enormous integrity and professionalism and effective governance really which is probably not what everyone thinks, but that's my experience of it.

AJ: 48:46

What's going through my head is again the media angle, just partial to my experience in the world. Obviously it's just. That's not a story you hear enough of, and an old mentor of mine used to. Well, he pretty much taught me it. I was a much angrier young guy before I met him, so I'm partial to what you're saying and I wish it was a story that was told more. But I guess what you'd say in turn is that's our choice. Again, we can get involved. Before we sign off, cathy, I'd love to just make point of your role as chair of AgriFutures, and I've seen you say that a similar sort of animation with community at the centre could have similar transformative, positive transformative effects in that field. How are you seeing it now? How's it going?

Cathy: 49:31

It's slow work, I'm sure, yeah, it's slow work Really, but that's okay, because building solid foundations and doing work carefully and slowly is really important because then it's going to last. So definitely it's. The work of engaging community in the work of agri-futures is very important and it's growing. Traditionally, research hasn't been one to engage well with a wider community. They engage with a narrow set of people who know stuff experts. So widening it up is a bit of a change.

Cathy: 50:12

But you know, when I talk to people about it, and particularly on this topic of doing research around carbon, around the transition to net zero, about how agriculture is going to respond, people flock to it. They're really keen to be engaged in it. I just don't think we've got the mechanism yet how to sieve it, funnel it, do something with it. That's going to take a lot more talking around because agriculture is quite different in the way you're working. But people are keen. We just haven't yet found the mechanisms that are going to create the longer term foundations for how we do this. But yeah, there's great interest in it and I certainly get invited all over the country to talk about some of the research we're doing and every time I do people go oh my God, that's really interesting. How do we get involved?

AJ: 51:00

Yeah, now, this is what I see too. I mean I even remember just noticing the cross-threads the convention, the Community Independent Project Convention in I guess it was 22 after the election, that sort of oh my God, what's just happened? Moment. And you were in discussion with David Pocock, who became Senator out of the ACT and you figured he might end up being an unofficial spokesperson for regenerative agriculture, given his background. That doesn't appear to have sort of manifested in any public way. But what I noticed was that the chat space during your conversation took off in an independence movement context that did excite people.

Cathy: 51:38

Yeah, and I think we've got quite a bit more work to do there, so maybe next time when we talk, we could talk about that. It's definitely a work in progress.

AJ: 51:47

Yeah, let's do that. All right For now. Cathy, also, back then you said that within a decade, we could transform Australian politics. So that was 2021. 2022 happened and I thought, wow, that was a bit, probably a bit quicker as it was, as you said today, a bit quicker than expected. Do you still believe in that vision?

Cathy: 52:09

It's not so much the vision of transforming, because I haven't actually got a vision of what that looks like, but this involvement of people in democracy. Absolutely I believe in it and I'm seeing it everywhere, huge numbers of people putting their hand up and saying I want to be involved. So what that produces for the country, I actually don't know. All I know it's for the better. Yeah, and I know we will win some seats and lose some seats and again, I'm not. So that's all good. And if Kate loses in Curtin, I wouldn't want to be her opposition. Quite frankly, it's like whoa my God, what the standards she will hold that person to will actually change. If the Liberals win, it would fundamentally change the way it works, which is not going to be a bad thing. So, yeah, I don't have a predetermined outcome. I do have a knowledge that this engagement in democracy and the more people do it and the more people do the community way I just know that has to be better.

AJ: 53:08

So yeah, yeah, it's fair to say that it's expected to be a minority government next time.

Cathy: 53:16

Yeah.

AJ: 53:16

And a bigger crossbench. It does make me wonder. I'll put something to you could a community independent be prime minister one day?

Cathy: 53:25

No, I don't think so. Why is that? Well, I don't think they want to be. I think that's it. They don't go there with the intention of running the country. So maybe one day a community might elect somebody with the intention of we want you to be the Prime Minister and they might pick someone who's going to do that, but certainly that's not the vibe at the moment. The vibe at the moment is we want someone who's going to do that, but certainly that's not the vibe at the moment. The vibe at the moment is we want someone who's going to represent us. Yeah, but Malcolm Turnbull is of a different opinion. Malcolm Turnbull, when he saw the calibre of the crossbench, he says some of these should be ministers.

AJ: 54:05

Well, exactly.

Cathy: 54:05

Absolutely some of it, yeah, so anyhow, that's for others. All right, tell me the story, Cathy, behind your music choice this time, yeah, so from little things, big things grow, I think just in another space, and time captures so much of what we're trying to do and in the 2013 election, kev Carmody and.

AJ: 54:28

Paul Kelly.

Cathy: 54:29

Paul Kelly gave permission for us to adapt that song for Indi, and one of our local singer-songwriters, sel Kimber, adapted some of the words for it. So yeah, but it's a beautiful song and I really love it, and it constantly reminds me that you start where you're at and you work within your circle of control and you grow. That that's the magic of it.

AJ: 54:52

Wonderful Cathy. It's been fun and an honour to speak to you again. Thanks a lot for spending the time.

Cathy: 54:57

See you later and enjoy US for us. Very keen to follow your interviews there. It's great. Thank you Bye-bye.

AJ: 55:12

That was Cathy McGowan, dubbed the godmother of the Australian Community Independents Movement, though I'm not sure how much she'll appreciate me repeating that she may never speak with me again. Links in the show notes, of course, including to that community independents project Interactive Map, which leads to all other kinds of ways to get involved in your area. Thanks again to you, generous supporting listeners for backing this effort to do media differently, and if you've been considering joining us, I'd love you to Links in the show notes for that too. You're listening to S. Kimber singing for Cathy's campaign launch back in 2013.

AJ: 55:50

My name's Anthony James. Thanks for listening.

Sal : 55:57

Now in Daza region, made up of great valleys that stretch from the Murray, yak and Danda to Ye. It's the home of proud people who value their freedom. They want to have power over what leaders say. Come on, from the little things, good things grow. From the little things, good things grow. Well, the new voice for Indi was created in springtime when twelve people gathered to express their concerns. Then kitchen table talking was heard all over Indi, gathering opinions to listen and learn From new things.

Punters: 56:48

Big things grow and learn from New Beans Big Beans Road. From New Beans Big Beans Road.

Sal : 56:56

Well, the locals chose Cathy, who was born in this valley. She's sixth generation of a family farming crew. Being a teacher, runs a business, a community leader. Now she wants to speak up for me and for you From the green sweeping strokes. From the green sweeping strokes.

Sal : 57:26

Vote for the voice, the voice for Indi. Vote for the voice that comes from the land. Vote for the voice, the voice for Indi. We must make a choice. Yeah, we must make a stand. Young people are frustrated. They don't trust the system. They're tired of the fighting, guessing who's on whose side. We're facing huge problems when solutions are short term. Let's vote for respect, compassion this time. From little things, big things grow. From little things, big things grow. We're not a poly party. The community of in and out. We're not just a one off. We're in for a long time. It's time for our MPs to engage with their people with honesty and trust. It can all be transformed. From little things to things, great. From little things to things, things grow. From little things, big things grow. Now your turn. From little things big things grow.

Sal : 58:59

From little things, big things grow there you go, and I vote for a voice, a voice for it, and I vote for the voice that comes from this land. Vote for the voice, the voice for Indi. We must make a choice, we must make a stand. From little things, big things grow From little things. Big things grow from little things. Big things grow from little things, big things grow.