The RegenNarration Podcast

We Walk Out Family: Transforming Education Through a Restorative Justice Approach

Anthony James Season 9 Episode 265

Last week’s episode from the ancient Great House of Pueblo Bonito in Chaco Canyon, New Mexico, left something out. Before my guest Dana Scott and I headed back to the car, we went back towards the entrance and plaza, because I couldn’t pass up the opportunity to talk about how Dana’s path has arrived at a transformational restorative justice approach to education, how that evolved from our time in Guatemala together, and how being at Chaco relates to it all. 

We quipped at the outset that this could be another podcast, and really, it was. I hope you enjoy it.

And for those of you who enjoyed the conversation with Jenny Finn at Springhouse Community School, it was Dana, through Dwanna (who you’ll hear about here) who introduced us.

I’ll share more photos of our visit to Chaco, in addition to those appearing on the website, with paid subscribers today also, with great thanks for making all this possible.

Recorded 15 April 2025.

Title slide photo by Olivia Cheng.

See more photos on the episode web page, and for more behind the scenes, become a supporting listener below. 

Music:

Chauen, Angel Salazar (sourced from Artlist).

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AJ:

G'day Anthony James here for The RegenNarration, your independent, listener-supported podcast on regenerating the systems and stories we live by. Last week's episode from the ancient great house of Pueblo Bonito, in Chaco Canyon, New Mexico, left out something. Before my guest, dana Scott, and I headed back to the car, we went back towards the entrance and plaza because I couldn't pass up the opportunity to talk about how Dana's path has arrived at a restorative justice approach to education, how that evolved from our time in Guatemala together and how being at Chaco relates to it all. We quipped at the outset that this could be another podcast, and really it was. So here you go.

AJ:

I hope you enjoy it and for those of you who enjoyed the conversation with Jenny Finn at Springhouse Community School, you might remember it was Dana, through Duana, who you'll hear about here, who introduced us. I'll share more photos of our visit to Chaco, in addition to those appearing on the website with paid subscribers this week. For now, here's Dana. So we're walking back towards the sunset, towards the west, back to the entrance to the plaza, and I might just round it out there, but let's do that too, with a bit of what you've been exploring. I'm curious where the journey has led for you.

Dana:

You know, 21 years after I left you going on 22 now since I left you in Guatemala.

AJ:

I mean what did Guatemala shift for you that is relevant today, perhaps.

Dana:

Oh, I mean how much time you got Everything.

AJ:

Could be another podcast.

Dana:

Yeah, several. I went to Peace Corps. I went to Guatemala as a Peace Corps volunteer in the wake of 9-11. In the wake of 9-11. And so I kind of signed on in 2001, and just as I was graduating college in May of 2002, I was on a plane and really not knowing what was in front of me at the time, and it was a big leap of faith to do that, but can you say a safe leap of faith? I don't know, because I knew that at the time the US government, I could make a phone call and they'd have a helicopter to get me out of there. At least that was my hope. My belief Can't say that that is now the case still anymore, you know.

Dana:

Yeah, so, you know, showing up in Fry and meeting you and you know our friends, our collection of Westerners who'd sort of found themselves in this unlikely town in northeastern Alta Verapaz, it was an experience for me of becoming familiar with what it meant to be American, because I'd never left the country before, really, you know, and didn't really have a sense that being an American was anything particularly different than anything else in the world. But, um, so, in that sense, understanding, coming into an understanding of what it means to be an American in the world, uh, what it means to be, um, an American in Central America, uh, was humbling, humbling and at times, gosh, I felt a lot of shame. I won't, and that I still sit with, you know, in our role as the American people in the Civil War.

Dana:

well, I thought their Civil War their civil right, not the American Civil War, the, I'm talking about the Guatemalan Civil War and just the number of sort of acts. You know, all the different civil unrest sort of civil wars that were happening in Central America and South America throughout the 70s and 80s and kind of coming into Guatemala in the wake of that. And, anthony, you were a big part of kind of me understanding really what that meant. Like I mentioned, you put, you're the first person to put a noam chomsky book in my hands and it opened up a huge path for me.

AJ:

Um, but I got, and then we end up working in some of the education projects that I'd well that's the thing I mean.

Dana:

Gosh, if you hadn't gotten dengue, uh, I would never have had to fill in for you in that project you were doing in the schools and discovered, you know, a love of education and need for education. Really, that was from that. Yeah, that was from that. Currently I do work in the public school system in Maryland and that journey began in Guatemala. The first time I stood in front of a classroom and came alive, and that was all. Because you got dengue. You thought I was dying, right? No, you know. And for the backstop drop there, anthony was very sick and had taken on this amazing project teaching globalization in the Basico, which is the American equivalent to, I guess, like a middle school, high school kind of you know, age group, and you were too sick to do it, to finish it.

AJ:

It was a lost beat. It was where they painted murals over the Coca-Cola.

Dana:

Oh, and it was such a beautiful project and it was really exciting to be a part of it. But it was one of those moments where you kind of had to say, okay, looking around, no one else is going to do this if I don't step up. It was very thoughtful.

Dana:

It was a moment of me kind of stepping in to some power, and, yeah, that was a life-changing moment for me.

Dana:

What do you know?

Dana:

What I'll say too, though, is that, like in my own sort of coming to terms with being an American in Central America, so hot on the heels of a really horrific civil war, largely funded by my government, I felt a sense of I spent days wondering why I was even there and what my purpose was, and I remember very vividly having a moment of looking in the mirror and thinking, looking at my white face and my blonde hair and my blue eyes, and thinking these people shouldn't trust me, and feeling really sad about that, you know, feeling really like I wanted to do good work, to do good work, but I felt that being born American meant that I was set on a path of not doing the kind of work that I felt needed to be done, that I valued the human work, and I had.

Dana:

No, I didn't have a lot of examples of that in my life growing up, certainly not a lot of examples of that in my public education of. Uh, you know, I mean, the heroes are the, and who we learn about in history are the conquerors, you know the violent men who yeah, um, but again you came from the empire, but you were feeling crap oh sure, well, and so I I think you know.

Dana:

So, to kind of pick up where we were a little earlier, like I had, I came to this realization that, like um, I couldn't do any work if I lived in that place of shame and if I lived in that place of of uh gosh, feeling um, you know, I, I self loathing feels a little melodramatic, but that was kind of where I was honestly and it didn't feel good. And then I remember reading at the back of a gosh at this point it was the third or fourth Chomsky book, and I don't even remember which one, to be honest with you, because I was just consuming- every kind of they do fold into each other.

Dana:

Sure, they really do, and all those little thin pamphlet-looking ones you know like.

Dana:

Sure, they really do. And all those little thin pamphlet looking ones, you know, like I had all of them. But one said you know, gosh, as an American, if you're reading this and you can do something to help, by God do it. You know, and I'm paraphrasing because I don't remember the exact, but I mean, it hit me like a lightning bolt. I was like I have to do something. I can't just sit here and feel sorry for myself and, you know, hate myself for what we did to Guatemala. I have to try to help. I have to try to do what I can, you know, use the power that I to my own spirituality and more earth-based, you know, faiths and yeah, I don't know just feeling like all we have is that choice. That's all we have and that choice. You can't ignore the context in which you're making that choice, because there are so many things and people are going to see you in so many ways just by who you are in the space that you're in. But it's still your choice to make and you have to make it. And so that's what I've been sitting with and it has been an evolving choice.

Dana:

I would say it's a choice that I'm still choosing.

Dana:

It's a verb, not a noun.

Dana:

You know, and it is something that I'd say, every day you reveal new truths, or the ways that we were raised that maybe aren't in alignment with the rhythms of the earth, or maybe a truth that might be disparaging to a particular group of people that you just had never even thought of or questioned. And then you hear another perspective and it opens your eyes and you think, holy god, I had no idea, I had no, never meant to hurt anyone. Um, with, you know, making that offhanded comment, and and then you make your choice, say okay, now I choose. You can only and I guess that goes to say too, you can only choose based on the information you have. And so we make our choice in this context of history and culture, with the information that we have directly in front of us, and that's why their connections and our relationships are so important, because we can help each other to make a good choice as we move forward on our human journey I do want to fast forward in some brief fashion, because again it'd be another podcast.

AJ:

But to where? Because when you say you're in public education, I mean you're doing some extraordinary work, yeah, really connecting with students in well.

AJ:

I guess it's in a way, we cut our teeth on back in Guatemala and see you doing it here in challenging urban situations, in, you could argue, somewhat decaying structures of this civilization we've been part of, and you've come to a point of, yeah, yeah, a bit of a leap, as you've been inferring, yep, and so we don't need to go into details because obviously they're to be revealed in a way, but. But I do want to at least speak a bit into the restorative justice edge, sure, just briefly, as to, I mean, as you've described it, to be getting to the front of problems, not just dealing with the symptoms within an education system, of when students hit the rocks in one form or another, but getting ahead of it with a different way of connecting which relates to all this?

Dana:

I think it does. I mean, I think so. I think what you're referring to is restorative justice and there's a lot of different ways that restorative justice shows up in pop culture, on the internet. I mean, if you Google restorative justice, I think still we think of it as a technique to limit recidivism in the US incarceration system or maybe global incarceration systems, but it's come up for me through education. I was, but it's come up for me through education. I was very, very fortunate to have accepted a job at a high school where we were part of a pilot program that was looking at exploring ways to incorporate restorative justice into the high school curriculum.

Dana:

And my first time sitting in circle with colleagues, with adults too, and that's another part.

Dana:

I'll get to that in a second. But getting personal, but not in a way of like a hippie crystals sort of thing, nothing to do with that Go crystal, crystal it up. Go crystal, crystal it up. But it was very like just talking about our experiences of being a human in an education setting and connecting that to our experiences of being a human, you know, and this sense of all of us in this moment, with coworkers, just being people, you know.

Dana:

And so the philosophy that I've really picked up and I want to credit my teacher, dewana Nicole, who would hate it if I called her a teacher, but she is a teacher for me and she's who taught me this practice, and I do my best to honor duana every time I keep circle. But the kind of the philosophy here is we start with the adults in the education setting and that, you know, for so long at least in the us education system, we've been looking at ways of bridging the of the education gap, the the test scoring gap, and talking about ways to close the gap, and that refers to traditionally minoritized children of minoritized populations. We use the same language back home too.

AJ:

And it's not working, by the way.

Dana:

Oh, it's not working at all. No, because we've been focusing our efforts working, by the way. Oh, it's not working at all. No, because we've been focusing our efforts. And this was, you know, in the us we had no child, uh, left behind through the early 2000s and um, right, and it's. It's shifted and changed in in in its sort of dress and names and maybe different metrics that we're looking at, but it's still all very student-centered and um which is interesting, isn't it?

AJ:

That Indigenous people have experienced is that you're the problem.

Dana:

We're fixing here. Right, you're the problem we're fixing, yeah, and I think it gets back to the factory model of at least the US public education system too, of like, if we're not stamping out the right kind of widget, then we have to look at the widgets and fix the widgets.

AJ:

you know, because it applies, I should say, to landscape too, or climate. Sure, You're the problem. We need to fix it Right.

Dana:

So this is a profound shift you're talking about, with biases as humans, because we all grew up in this system. It's not to say that any of these folks are bad folks. They're just doing what they're told Stuff we were sharing before so doing what they're doing.

Dana:

there might be that the act of the education system writ large the way it's developed, the attitudes and the sort of the preconceived ideas that teachers have about particular populations of kids or whatever, coming into the classroom. Maybe that's limiting our kids and maybe, if we turn our attention to the kids or to the adults rather sorry that we can, um, begin to move the needle, because it's not to say that the adults are the problem, although I have heard lots of people say that understandably, um, I've been a problem.

AJ:

Yeah, sure, yeah, yeah.

Dana:

But I think, as the folks who are in these leadership capacities and facilitation capacities of our education systems, like, we have a lens and maybe if we work on that lens that we can actually change things. You know.

AJ:

So your experience of it, so far as it pertains to education, has really inspired.

Dana:

You I mean my first circle. I said and I thought this was it. This is it why this is the path forward because what will it do in an education setting?

Dana:

and you are not just just in that hierarchical teacher-student role anymore. You are people in a space together and we all have challenges in their spaces, especially in the way our systems are designed Like they're not all the way always designed for humans to be successful, you know. And being able to talk about that, being able to level the playing field, you know, and what we're talking about now is the playing field among different educators, right? So teachers, counselors, administrators, the school nurses, that kind of thing within those hierarchies, within those systems, I guess, are hierarchies. And as adults, when we sit down together and just talk and just be through a structured format, we can begin to peel back some of the layers. And I think the other piece of this, too, that I, the system that you use, is super important, right, it can't just be people talking, because when people are just talking, all of our programming shows up. All the ways that we believe we're supposed to act and the things that we believe we're supposed to say, show up, um, show up.

Dana:

And, in my experience, um, when you have a system like in the united states, where sort of white culture was, uh, the dominant culture and then we have minoritized cultures, um, that have been. Uh, you know whose voices have been silenced, um, muted volumes turned down. You know, whatever metaphor you want to use, that the folks who identify with those minoritized populations are really, really good at just letting the white person talk and say whatever the hell they're going to say, and just kind of nodding and saying, sure, and then going back later, you know, to their friends in spaces, in safe spaces, and be like can you believe what this guy said? Well, this is something, this is the trust thing back in Guatemala. Sure, friends in in spaces, in safe spaces, and be like can you believe what this guy said?

AJ:

um well, this is something, this is the trust thing back in guatemala sure we had, we knew that it was there. Yeah, too, the white guy lobs up, and to get to get behind that to some genuine trust is, well, one of the most beautiful experiences of my life.

Dana:

It, yes it that trust has to be earned. It has to be, you have to be open to receiving it, you have to be open to hearing it. And I'll tell you, as a member of the dominant culture, you have to be willing to hear some hard truths about things that your people have done and things that you've done that you didn't even realize you were doing. You have to be open to that and that's a hard. That's a hard ask sometimes, but it's an important ask. And if we're going to actually, you know, work on, you know, air quotes, closing the gap, we have to be willing to get uncomfortable.

AJ:

You know there's an indigenous woman, Malikaajasat, in the Kimberley, who turned that closing the gap around to be, instead of closing the gap with, you know, the idea that this education system is what constitutes an education in itself, let alone the other indicators that there are that we're not meeting, inevitably because the system's geared a particular way, et cetera, et cetera. And she said I think her words were something like closing the gap of understanding or something you know it was bringing the symptoms sort themselves out if you can get the core relating right. It was brilliant, I thought. And she's a young Indigenous woman just starting a family. But wow, landed an insight there.

Dana:

No, well, I think the beauty of being able to sit in circle when you've chosen to be in that space and you've chosen to allow yourself to feel discomfort and hopefully with a sense of something for the greater good, um, you learn so much about the humans around you. There's so much of our experience that is just a shared human.

AJ:

You know experience of, yes, raising children and and falling in love, and I think about where we sit, which, by the way, is back in where we start yeah, now we've walked back to the little alcove and the light gets a bit golden as we go. I know it's extraordinary.

Dana:

Yeah, these cliff faces are just singing.

AJ:

They're so beautiful, that's what I think of here. I'm imagining the families, yeah, that came in here, the families that came in here with some of these, I mean, if it was such a center of ceremony and ritual that they were going through this stuff.

Dana:

I mean humans do we love our children. Sometimes they make us mad. You know we love our partners. Sometimes they make us mad, and all of that is like just part of the human experience and it's beautiful and messy and crazy and like, but like it is also in sharing the stories of these things, which I've also come to understand is a huge part of indigenous education, or maybe more. You know, uh, you know earth-based, you know educational systems and traditions, but sharing the stories is what connects us.

AJ:

That's the key in the lock underline yeah, the more I learn, yeah, the more I see and, I guess, the more I keep going on where I've ended up? Yeah, all these fortuitous accidents or whatever, yeah, I want to call them.

Dana:

Yeah, so you know, to kind of finish the answer to your question a long time ago, the process of circle, when followed honestly and diligently, it is a process that is based on indigenous practices.

Dana:

It is a process that has been meted out over time and by a lot of different practitioners.

Dana:

But when followed honestly, it helps you unlock that truth as another human in the struggle, on the journey, on the path, and you find yourself connected, more willing to take risks, to try new things, because what you've done in circle, when it's done well and followed what I feel are correct protocols not unlike a ritual very, very similar, I feel are correct protocols, you know, not unlike a ritual very, very similar, you know. But when you follow those practices and you're in a space with another human that trusts you and who you trust, you can try new things out, you can be vulnerable and you can move education. I think you know that's really and I think that's the thing we are so stuck in a way of doing things. It's working great for some, for for a percentage of the population, but by and large a lot of us are are getting left behind in different ways, you know, and not just by the traditional metrics, you know, but also in in kind of finding meaning on our life path. That's right.

AJ:

I don't even use the words left behind anymore. I think that's the closing the gap in the wrong direction. Sure sure, sure, I use the words being disconnected Humans are meant to hold each other.

Dana:

We're meant to live in community and in the kinship with the rest.

AJ:

I mean, I think of what you're saying about circle and I'm looking over that Kiva. That moved me. So the other day, the day, yeah in golden light right now yeah, absolutely deep, deeply dug into the earth circular structure, and imagined what they were doing, at least of a similar ilk. And you say it sort of shares the roots with those sorts of cultures. It does it does.

Dana:

You know? I don't know if you've ever sat in a sweat lodge I should. It's past seven o'clock we might give it the ass here, but anyway, go for a sweat lodge. I I had the privilege of sitting in some sweat lodges with a practitioner in Philadelphia gosh a couple of years ago. You walk out of a sweat lodge and it is an uncomfortable experience. It is not. I wouldn't say this is a great time, right, you're sitting close, you know, shoulder to shoulder with let's talk to this guy.

AJ:

Hello, we need to move on, all right, ok, thanks Sorry, we lost track of time. Just got here. Got to right, okay, thanks Sorry we lost track of time.

Dana:

That's all right. Just got here, got to talking. Thanks so much. Thank you, have a good night. Have a good one, all right. I didn't realize it closed at seven.

AJ:

I knew the front gate did yeah, but it makes sense that the structure would. I'm glad they didn't lock us in, thoughtful of them there's no gate at the other side, so I knew we'd be right. All right anyway go ahead, mate.

Dana:

Oh, just to you know, you walk out, you're sitting in the sweat lodge and it's kind of uncomfortable and weird and you're like I don't so totally. I mean, I was with a bunch of people, I didn't really know, I just went with a friend. But man, you come out of that thing after half an hour, 45 minutes and you love every single person that you were sitting in there with and I can't explain it to you. But the feeling of love is real and you, just you come, you walk into those sweat lodges, total strangers. You walk out family.

AJ:

Well, you know it's funny because I wrote an article recently on Substack about a plane that flipped on the runway, Remember?

Dana:

that yeah, oh gosh, yes.

AJ:

And the quote from one of the people in there because they all survived about, uh, a plane that flipped on the runway. Remember that, yeah, oh gosh, yes. And. And the quote from one of the people in there because they all survived, it was toronto, right, it's incredible. Yeah, I can't remember, but the quote from the the passenger was uh, everybody got real close real quick. Yeah, and in the crucible of the moment that humans have, that is, uh, pertains to our broader context big time right now.

AJ:

Yeah, but hey, mate as we move on and we get back towards the car. Look at this light over the building as we go along the east-west wall.

Dana:

I mean this is what we were going for yesterday, right? Oh my God, pretty excited to drive up on the Fajada Butte right now.

AJ:

Exactly we're going to come to the sun. The Fajada Butte will have the western sun on the western side, which we don't see from our campground when the sun's setting. So we actually haven't seen this golden light on the Butte at the end of the day, and it is perfectly clear over that horizon right now.

Dana:

Oh, my gosh.

AJ:

So that will be a wonder. Yeah, mate, yeah, thank you, it was fun, fun thanks for having me on incredible reconnect.

Dana:

This is beautiful frankly.

AJ:

Yeah, yeah and uh to be able to do that in there beautiful, all right.

Dana:

All right, let's do it back to camp. yo

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