Chief Mountain: A Great Coming Home, with Andrew Berger & Kim Paul

Last week featured a very special on-location episode with Amskapi Piikani Blackfeet elder, and founder of the Piikani Lodge Health Institute, Long Time Charging Woman Kim Paul. That was our first day together, visiting some of the places Kim holds most dear on spectacular Blackfeet Country in current day northern Montana, all while sharing some breathtaking stories about her life and work.

We left off that episode hearing the story of how Piikani Lodge came to be, and the support that started to serendipitously kick in. Back at the house that night, Andrew Berger turned up. He’s the Director of Agriculture and Climate Adaptation Programs at Piikani Lodge. 

Based in Baltimore, he’s a landscape architect who cut his teeth in New Mexico on water rights and planning, which fortuidously led him to Piikani Lodge in its relatively early days. And he’s found himself pivotal to the big vision Kim talked about last time, on their latest reacquired land, while he also works with that increasing number (almost half of them so far) of the landholders and farmers improving their land management and production.

So the next day, Kim and Andrew kindly offered to take us out to the sacred sentinel that is Chief Mountain. Which was also where the closing scenes to the new award-winning documentary I talked about last week, Bring Them Home, were filmed, as buffalo were returned to the wild for the first time in over a century.

So join me as I climb in with Andrew to hear how he’s seeing this country, the work of Piikani Lodge, and his role in it all. We’re to meet up with Kim at Chief Mountain. And the day goes on to culminate with an unforgettable wild encounter, while it starts with an heroic story, and more breaking news, straight out of the gate. 

Chapter markers & transcript.

Recorded 11 July 2025.

Title image: Andrew, Kim & AJ by the Medicine Wheel (pic: Olivia Cheng).

See more photos on the episode web page, and for more behind the scenes become a supporting listener below.

Btw, at the last location in this ep, it was Pearl Jam’s bassist.

Music:

Flight of the Inner Bird, by Yehezkel Raz feat. Sivan Talmor (from Artlist).

Regeneration, by Amelia Barden.

The RegenNarration playlist, music chosen by guests.

Chapters

• 0:00 Setting Off Across Blackfeet Country
• 3:10 The first on-reservation Native American land trust
• 4:47 The drought emergency with changes in climate and land
• 7:05 National hero Elouise Cobell (Yellow Bird Woman)
• 9:17 A vital conservation corridor
• 10:37 Carbon credits & other possibly helpful things
• 14:42 Launching a dashboard and mapping tool for producers
• 17:42 Piikani’s small team & the funding sources achieving so much
• 19:00 Re-granting money for farmers to implement practices cost-free
• 20:18 Piikani’s innovation with snow fencing for water retention
• 21:57 A demonstration site at the high school’s progressive ag program
• 23:07 The spectacular (and problematic) St Mary’s water story
• 27:30 Lords of the Plains … and Mountains
• 28:37 Exciting shift in National Park access
• 29:57 Re-introduction of the transboundary wild buffalo herd
• 31:47 The Blackfoot Confederacy
• 33:47 Ways communities are repairing the water cycle
• 36:12 Chaco Canyon water threats and other mining paradoxes
• 37:40 Heading for Chief Mountain
• 38:12 The largest living beings
• 38:57 Heading to the medicine wheel (Andrew’s first time since the filming)
• 40:00 Working with bison producers
• 41:07 At the Medicine Wheel with Kim
• 47:00 Brokering the buffalo release into the wild here
• 49:12 The extraordinary story of Blackfeet buffalo survival & return
• 51:07 Epigenetic memory in humans & buffalo
• 52:00 A mountain lion?
• 52:49 Ancient tobacco
• 54:15 Transboundary Grasslands Partnership
• 55:09 Maybe more projects can tap into peer subscription models (like this podcast)?
• 57:10 Working with an indigenous led media company
• 58:25 Independent media units popping up
• 59:55 Is so-called ‘social media’ worth it? (vs alternatives?)
• 1:05:55 Heading into Glacier NP
• 1:06:45 Podcasts we’re listening to, RFK, John Kempf & our takes on US politics
• 1:07:00 Jon Tester
• 1:09:10 Arriving at the Canadian border
• 1:09:20 Complexities of the tribal vote determining Montana
• 1:12:00 Communities just doing stuff for themselves
• 1:15:47 A climactic wild encounter
• 1:20:44 Heading home … with a tangential Pearl Jam reference
• 1:21:23 Music and closing words

Transcript

AJ: 0:01

11111 111111 Yeah cool. Okay. Alright.

Andrew: 0:05

Alright. Go for it dude. This is Andrew Berger reporting live. Yeah. Um yeah, no, I'm so I was just saying we were just passing the Yellow Bird Woman Sanctuary, which is named after Eloise Cobel. And I think over ten years ago now it was purchased in partnership with the Nature Conservancy, and they formed the Blackfeet Indian Land Trust to manage the land.

AJ: 0:35

G'day, Anthony James here for The RegenNarration, your ad-free, freely available listener-supported podcast, exploring how people are regenerating the systems and stories we live by. Last week featured a very special on-location episode with Amskapi Piikani Blackfeet Elder, and founder of the Piikani Lodge Health Institute, Long Time Charging Woman Kim Paul. That was our first day together, visiting some of the places Kim holds most dear on spectacular Blackfeet Country in current-day northern Montana, all while sharing some at times breathtaking stories about her life and work. We left off that episode hearing the story of how Piikani Lodge came to be. And the support that started to serendipitously kick in. Back at the house that night, the bloke you heard at the top turned up. Andrew Berger. He's the director of agriculture and climate adaptation programs at Piikani Lodge. For those listeners who've been tracking the uncanny Baltimore connections that continue to pop up on our journey, Andrew is, you guessed it, based in Baltimore. Turns out he's also a muso who played tennis as a kid with a double-handed backhand and all sorts of other parallel journeys to my own. But aside from all that, he's a landscape architect who cut his teeth in New Mexico on water rights and planning, which fortuitously led him to Piikani Lodge in its relatively early days. And he's found himself pivotal to the big vision Kim talked about last time on their latest reacquired land. While he also works with that increasing number, almost half of them so far, of the landholders and farmers improving their land management and production. So, the next day, Kim and Andrew kindly offered to take us out to the sacred sentinel that is Chief Mountain, which was also where the closing scenes to the new award-winning documentary I talked about last week, Bring Them Home, were filmed. As Buffalo were returned to the wild for the first time in over a century. This time, Kim is taking our boy and her grandson, while Olivia and I climb in with Andrew to hear how he's singing this country, the work of Piikani Lodge, and his outstanding role in it all. We're to meet up, at Chief Mountain. Oh, and the day culminates with an unforgettable wild encounter. So jump in, as we hear Andrew tell us more about a truly heroic journey. And more breaking news straight out of the gate.

Andrew: 3:12

So they basically stood up a land trust, and as far as we know, I think it's still the only tribal-led land trust, which is kind of hard to believe, but it's an interesting model. So they I mean they have like I think they have, I I know they have like a well, oh that was a sheep. That's just one of the big white dogs. Um they have uh bylaws, you know, like they have um certain standards they want to hold the land to in perpetuity, right? So like certain development limitations, and it's also a conservation easement. So with the state of Montana, it's a conservation. So it's certain limits there too. Yes. Um income. Like that? You know, it's a good question. They like the cabins we just passed, they rent that out to some groups, actually non-aided groups, um called Visions, and they like bring kids out there. I think they may be Christian actually, um, but they do like service projects across the community, and the buildings are in pretty bad shape. Yeah, it's like it's not as you kind of saw, yeah. They've wanted to, they've kind of let it sit, honestly. They they've leased it out to some grazers in the last 10 years, um, pretty minimally, but they've I think recognized that some stimulation, you know, some disturbance through grazing is good. So they want to um let it be grazed a little bit, but they protect the fen. The fen is fenced off, the rare wetland that's in there is fully fenced off. Um and we bring groups out there, we brought drones and groups out there and monitor the wetlands because there's like a critical mass that it can give you some indication of like how the landscape's doing overall that season or how climate change is affecting it. Um how long you've been gathering that data? It's not it's not like methodologically, you know. It's it's more like we take some drone footage. It would be great to do it. There have been other studies. There have been studies of the FEN, like published peer-reviewed studies of the FEN, yeah. Um but uh but yeah, out there, um we haven't set up any act, you know, we do similar, we do actual projects, you know, collecting publishable data at other places, but not not there. Um but we know we just look at it and we'll go out with elders or others and share um uh share their observations, you know, say, oh that that looks really low, or you know, yeah, um, oh we don't have a water source for our cattle here that we used to, you know, that kind of thing. But it's no it becomes that is the sort of thing you hear, huh? Right, absolutely. This year particularly, I mean yesterday was huge for the rain that they had we had yesterday. Yeah. No, it's been, I mean, they declared a drought emergency here um in uh early June, late May. Um and it's been it's been really serious. The snowpack in the mountains, like we're seeing now, um we're at about uh 60-70% by like late spring, which is bad. You know what I mean? Yeah. Um and this is even early, like the melt here. You know, you may be surprised to see snow, but like it's there's typically some more. Really? Um, yeah, even like Logan Pass, you know, the paths across, right? That um opened a bit earlier this year, but sometimes I don't know what the latest is. So I want to say it was sometimes still closed now, but it will take until July, you know, for that to be drivable. So yeah, it's pretty fun. It's pretty fun. Um I've been snowed on here in August. You know, I've been I was out camping in many glacier and uh woke up covered in snow. Yeah.

AJ: 6:17

Oh my god, we we were hailed on at Old Salt. Really? The summer solstice. Yeah. And snowed on the hills.

Andrew: 6:23

Oh man. Yeah.

AJ: 6:24

That was cold. Yeah, that sounds really cool.

Andrew: 6:26

It got sub-zero one night, I think. I mean sub zero Celsius. I mean, there is there's records here for like, I don't know, honestly, yesterday to the day before was I think 50 degree difference in temperature, right? Yeah. It was like 90 something to 40 something. Yeah. But there's a record here, I think it's um, I think it's in Mariah's Pass, um, where you pass on your way to West Glacier, where um I'm I'm not authority on this, but there is the largest temperature swing, I think, recorded within the shortest period of time. It was it was something like, you know, 100 degrees in 12 hours.

AJ: 6:56

Really? He probably knows that. He went from 70 to 30 balance. Yeah, okay, that's it.

Speaker 7: 7:02

That's the one probably unbelievable. So anyway.

Andrew: 7:05

So I should tell you quickly what why that is interesting. I can just say quickly. Yeah. Because so Eloise Cobel brought this case not just on behalf of the Blackfeet tribe, but on behalf of the whole country. And when this is the uh during the Obama administration. Oh, that's right, yeah. But she was working on it for decades before that. Yeah. And I think that was the first time it was heard. And there's a great documentary about this called A Hundred Years that like profiles what led up to this over a hundred years. Um, and it was basically that the federal government was shortchanging tribal landowners on allotted land and payments for it. So they would like price the land, undervalued, undervalue the cost of the land, and um, you know, pay folks much less than they deserved for it if they were purchasing it or taking it. Um, and there's a whole lot more legalese involved, but she like kind of quantified that to the point that you know she totaled, I think, just under five billion dollars that was owed to tribal individuals, you know, to tribal um tribal governments and individuals over like any any allotted landowners, which can be tribes or individuals over years. So they settled it. I don't know the exact number. Um I want to say it was closer to I actually actually don't know off the top of my head. I think it was a few hundred million, but it could have been more.

AJ: 8:24

Quick interlude. Andrew has since messaged to say it was actually 3.4 billion dollars. Let's hear more.

Andrew: 8:33

But what that's meant is that tribes, including the Blackfeet Nation, have actually gotten that money to rebuy land. So, like, um there's been a couple rounds here where they got money, the tribe got money, and then they would make offers to people. Um, they call it land buyback, and there were a couple rounds, and it's including the land we passed, just in no, that's a good question. No, that that um that's like managed by this Blackfaith Indian Land Trust. You know, that that's as a land. So the land that would be purchased by it gets really confusing fast with tribal land tenure. There's you know, um, so the land that'll be purchased by the tribe then becomes quote unquote tribal land, but it's basically like the tribe is a business, you know, it's so it's like the tribal government owns that land with the tribal business council. Um, yeah. So she is a Blackfeet tribal member, but she's like a national hero in that way. Um pretty amazing. And it's a really cool site, and so we're pretty excited, even like one of the reasons we wanted that site is because we feel like we're developing a bit of like a conservation corridor in this really critical transition landscape there. You know what I mean? Um where we've got, you know, a bunch of we just did a bird survey with Autobahn um a month ago, and we don't have the full results yet, but a lot we know a lot of bird habitat. Um we know a lot of migratory ungulate and beaver habitat and um all kinds of variegation that's critical for habitat migration. Yeah, so so does the Yellow Bird Woman Sanctuary. Um and so we work closely with them, with the folks at Nature Conservancy. Yes. Um and uh really constructive presence with tribal nations. Yeah, I think more and more. I mean you should totally if you ever want to talk to one of um my friends and and partners in the work um is this guy, Dylan Um DeRozier. I don't know if that name's come up yet. So he's the one one man, I think still one man um TNC Nature Conservancy office in Blackfeet Nation. So he's a tribal, he's a you know tribal member who lives in town and basically like you know primarily works on projects in Blackfeet Nation. Um and so they purchase land, so they've been purchasing ranches and like working with the tribe on a bunch of projects. We're working with them on a carbon project like to help get some money to the tribe through some carbon credits, which is a whole thing. That's a whole thing.

AJ: 10:54

I talked to you briefly about it too the other time. Oh, did you? Yeah. And we sort of it's funny, isn't it? It evokes instantly about so many people. Yeah. A bit of a head shake, not necessarily writing it off, but just like, oh geez.

Andrew: 11:08

Oh man, I know. I mean, you know, it's sort of like we're okay with taking the bad guy's money if we can do good with it. You know what I mean? But um, we have a lot of producers coming up to us who are getting approached by these companies because the companies are brokers, right? Like they're they're trying to get their cut. So, you know, they literally get like the latest company one of them we were approached by is is financed by Shell Oil. And you know, producers ask me, like, because we're doing carbon studies too, which I can tell you by a little if you want. I mean, they're in there have been interesting, interesting results. Really? Yeah. Um, but I'm always interested in what it means for the land. Exactly. Exactly.

AJ: 11:45

What it means for the brokers is just where it's easy.

Andrew: 11:47

So they ask, you know, like, well, should we do this? You're also monitoring carbon, and I'm like, well, this is you know, we're not gonna stop you, they're gonna pay. They also get 30% of the cut, you get 70%, you know, of the payment, and it's funded by Shell, so you're kind of like, you know, getting paid to let them pollute. Yeah. Um, so I just let them decide. But anyway. But sorry to cut you off there. No, no, no, no, no. Yeah, no, not at all. Yeah, I mean, our our carbon stuff, kind of to your point, has shifted because it is about the land and not about this one single metric that's been like um really monetized. Yes, you know, exactly. Um, really capitalized in a way. Yes. And so, like, we what we we've been monitoring carbon um for three years on the ranches we're working on, and um even just like baseline carbon to get a sense of you know, we know there's different conditions, we know there's different other variables that are helpful to ranchers, like water holding, water infiltration, and ground cover, and forage productivity. And from our testing, we we determined that like, and we're not the first to say this, but um it's almost absurd to say that we can actually calculate um the amount of soil organic carbon volumetrically. Like you've probably heard this from people. We we determined something like um, I think we would require um gosh, I'm forgetting the numbers now. We just made a fact sheet on this. Something around, you know, 10,000 samples an acre, something like really crazy uh that would cost millions of dollars to actually get within a standard deviation that we would be comfortable saying like this is the actual range. You know, because it's so variable. Well, it's interesting. It's so variable. Yeah, so we're like that's kind of discouraging because we're seeing signs that you would actually be storing more carbon. Like this, you know, things are growing, yes, there's less bare grounds, like all the things that we're shooting for in the grazing practices, but it's gonna be really discouraging to producers if we're just fixated on carbon. We're like, yeah, we don't see any, yeah, we don't, you know, for years we don't see any change. Um so like this summer we're installing a bunch of um soil moisture probes, you know.

AJ: 13:56

And this is a beautiful view. Oh my god. That is unbelievable. That's a beautiful view. Massive valley. Oh, and just forest all the way through it.

Andrew: 14:07

If you really want to stop, let me know. There's a couple spots I'm definitely gonna stop you at if you want, because they're really pretty, but yeah.

AJ: 14:12

That is pretty unbelievable. Let go of stopping.

Andrew: 14:15

But yeah, I mean I don't think I don't think as many people are doing that as they as they could, like monitoring, you know, like there's all of this um carbon monitoring that leads to to payments and like indicators of success. But our producers for the most part aren't you know instinctively, like intuitively interested in carbon, you know? Like it's you know, some are like, oh, I get this and I hear the buzz and I think I'm doing it, so I want to be celebrated. So we try to celebrate them. We're like, well, hell yeah, like you're you know, you've got eight percent organic matter, like that's amazing, you know, or whatever. Yeah, um, but like what we're working toward is a um is a dashboard as part of this like mapping tool we just actually went live yesterday. Really? Um yeah. What's um what?

AJ: 15:00

Yeah, we just like a platform the ranch to step into.

Andrew: 15:03

Yeah, exactly. We designed a software tool um that I'm excited about that we just uh It's a picani? Yeah, yeah. Well yeah, I can show you later if you want. I mean it's basically like um it's a tool that is free to producers, that you're able to create a login and with us um draw your ranch and overlay other layers like ownership, like you know, remote sensing data on forage productivity, you know, like all these other indicators that people are using some some more these days. And then we have some weather stations that were put in last year. And um the weather stations help a lot because it helps decide kind of you know how you're how you're doing when you're gonna irrigate or when you're gonna um rotate next, but also um it helps you become eligible for drought response programs, so you can like you can show you know when you actually started and ended your drought officially and get paid for it. Um but it's still pretty coarse, like it's still there's one every 500 square miles across the Blackfeet Nation, which is like not that much. So we're putting in these um soil moisture probes on actual sites we're working on, and then um you know that will actually show in real time this is how much after this rain event, this is how much uh that's how much soil water you retained. Um, and that's something to be really proud about. And that we also think like will change within a season, you know. Yes. Um I some of the work like I did at Cornell was around like soil amendments, and we would actually see um that like within the course of a season, they saw that you know you could actually substantially improve soil moisture and water holding, you know. And similarly, like if you're growing a certain amount, if you're bale grazing, if you have a bigger soil sponge, um it's a lot more encouraging, you know. It's like and it's actually informing decision making. Um so anyway, so we'll excited where that goes, but I think the tool will grow into like a dashboard um that people can use more and more. So we're just starting to build the layers. Yeah, I'm excited about it. So, like next week, what I'll be doing is like we had a meeting, I we did like a first edition of the tool, and we had a big community meeting in April. Um, it was super fun. We had like a hundred plus folks and some actually folks coming out talking about carbon and giving information there. And I think we had like 15 different speakers, it was great, different stations. And one of the stations was um I shared on the mapping tool and like got feedback, and then we just released like the second edition based on the feedback yesterday. So um, yeah, and so this one now people can like log in and create their own tool, which honestly I don't think most people want to do, like most people yeah, but that's fine. So we'll meet with people next week and like set them up, and then they'll just use it with us or we'll use it. But there are some people or their grandkids or somebody who wants to like you know use that for whatever, like they can just use it to figure out where they need a fence line or what they own and what they don't. Um, so yeah.

AJ: 17:52

Yeah. Oh amazed at how much talking. Yeah. Picarney's doing. It's a lot. It's nice. Like what it's a team of eight or something now? Something like that? If that, yeah. If that.

Andrew: 18:02

Um yeah, we're uh yeah, yeah, I don't know. Around that. How do you manage core funding to to do all these stuff? Yeah, good question. Um it's a variety, but it's it's entirely grant funded at the moment. Really? You know, so that's why we're pretty vulnerable. Yeah, as in as in government agencies. Yeah, it's not so it's not all government grants, but it's mostly. I think. At the time that um all the funding freeze happened, like at the time of the inauguration this year, I think we were like 95% federally funded. And we were already recognizing that we need to shift. Yeah, so we were working on that.

AJ: 18:37

But you know, awesome to have had that era where you could do that. Yeah, definitely. There was that money coming. Oh, definitely. We looked at from Australia, it was acts of envy when that shifted. You mentioned that yesterday, yeah.

Andrew: 18:47

That's I mean, that's really interesting. Yeah, it was it was great. It was also like, yeah, it was it was so welcomed. Some of it was also full of some red tape. Like there were some complications, yeah, that delayed some things. Um but still it was appreciated. Like, still, even before the freeze, some of our grants were delayed. Um, but we appreciate it fully. So yeah, we have we have grant funding, and you know, even the funding we give to producers, of course, is all like grant funding, you know. So we re-grant a lot of money. That's for producers to get training or to implement practices. Yeah. So we have like a program that's a hundred percent um uh cost-free, so there's no cost share even. We cover all the expenses.

AJ: 19:30

Um that's such a big buy, it's massive buy-in.

Andrew: 19:33

There's a there's a lot of growing buy-in, yeah, yeah, no. I mean, we have got a great team of like we're all getting the word out, and people I think are um more and more interested for various reasons, like maybe it's just more familiar in the community as it goes on. Um I actually think that our site will just make that much more of a difference because all along it's like this see it to believe it kind of thing. It's like, what are you talking about? Does this really work? You know? Yep. Well, yeah, come see. Like, we've actually got a long-term experiment site here or demonstration, or you know, you can see how this uh solar pump works, or you can see what it looks like when you graze intensively and rest it, you know. Oh my lord. So that's so that's an interesting view of Chief Mountain on the far right there. It looks different than the pictures because you're seeing it from the side. Right. But on the far right is Chief Mountain.

AJ: 20:20

Man, as we came up the hill and I'm just seeing sky, like I'm gonna be. This is gonna be something.

Andrew: 20:26

So here's some snow fence, right? Like you're saying. Yeah. But they're designed a little bit different to manage snow on the highway, of course.

AJ: 20:32

Yeah, yeah. That's that's right. So this is fascinating though, that you've developed a technique to actually um strategically harness the water infiltration into the soil by where you position these fences and that you move them, so you have them be mobile. Right.

Andrew: 20:50

So part of that is, yeah, yeah, it's been a big effort, big collaborative effort. Um part of that is so that you can help establish living snow fence, and part of it is so you can couple it with other practices. So, like, you know, the wind, like we were saying, is you know, so intense out here that if you plant saplings, it can be hard for them to establish, also, you know, especially like in open rangelands. So we we worked with this builder who makes often like corral panels, you know, like stationary panels you use to enclose horses or you know, set up a training pen or whatever you're doing. And we just modified the way that they work so they can um I can show you something. They're like transformers. They transform between being like a panel that blocks the winds to being one that lets it in in the right um percentage that deposits snow where you want it. There's just a relationship that's about 50-50 of where you should have like space to uh impermeable, you know, could be wood, could be we've we've done some with willow, with woven willow, um, which relates to a traditional ecological practice. And also the woven willow can then shoot into the ground, you know? Yeah, become living snow fence. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they're pretty cool. They're pretty like, you know, tangible. We've done a lot of what we set up a demonstration site at the high school our first year. Oh, cool. Um, and so we worked with there's an amazing program of like vocational agriculture class you can take at the high school. Really? And yeah, it's really cool. And one of our ranchers in our program teaches it, so it's been a great partnership.

AJ: 22:20

Um, it's huge because I yeah, I still hear so much about agricultural education being so old school. Yeah, like it's not much if if any students coming through are learning the more extractive ways. Yeah.

Andrew: 22:36

So this is big. Well, that's so the amazing thing, it's funny too. So she now we have an internship, as you know. Yeah, we're gonna stop up here. We are and um this teacher makes all of her students apply to our internship to get extra credit. So we get like 35 applications every year from her class. But it's pretty great because those are also the kids who've maybe been part of our monitoring or you know, have been out to her ranch to see what we're doing with her. Um, and then what's happened, which has been awesome, is some of our interns have also told their parents about the program, and then they've become producers of the program, you know. So they'll be out and they'll be like, hey, like we should do this, mom and dad. And then it's kind of the kids leading it, you know what I mean? Yeah, like getting their families excited about it, which is pretty awesome.

AJ: 23:16

It sure is.

Andrew: 23:17

Yeah, yeah, we're gonna stop right up here. There's a very cool side.

AJ: 23:20

So is that dam up there?

Andrew: 23:23

Yeah, um yeah, this is this is a very uh interesting water project. So this is uh this is the St. Mary's Upper St. Mary and Lower St. Mary's lakes, and um it feeds uh canal system. Um but the uh the Blackfeet Nation doesn't really benefit from that water at all. That's what Kim was saying. Well, she's saying that. So it's a really complicated situation. I mean it's a wrong situation. It goes up into Canada to Alberta and serves irrigators from there, and then it comes back down like the high line in Montana, um, some hundreds of miles east, and serves irrigators there. Um but like this year is a really interesting one because there was a huge break in the system last year. Oh, and this it's it was built in the early 1900s, and like this pipe burst. Oh, we're gonna she might not stop here. I'll pull off. This is just a cool view. They built this little walking trail recently.

AJ: 24:23

There's a cool public. I've got two earlies in the city.

Andrew: 24:26

Yeah, they're nice. Yeah.

AJ: 24:28

Awesome. Do you want to look really quick? Smells delicious. Oh, it's like crazy difference from yesterday.

Andrew: 24:40

Oh yeah.

AJ: 24:42

Oh, there's more than looking through that belly.

Andrew: 24:45

Yeah, it gets higher up there. Yeah.

AJ: 24:46

Really?

Andrew: 24:47

That's that's like going to the sun road. Oh, that's through there. Yeah.

AJ: 24:51

Yeah.

Andrew: 24:52

Yeah. So we'll maybe drive part of it today. I don't know, but yeah. Yeah, this isn't just another.

AJ: 25:04

Smells delicious, doesn't it? Well, it really does. Yeah. Yeah. What is the story? Yeah, the water thing is tough, man.

Andrew: 25:12

It's really rough. Because it's interesting because it just passes through all these ranches we work with, and people aren't allowed to use any. And it just like, you know, even with the water compact, you know, this is like some of what I worked on with master's thesis and whatnot. Like, was why why don't people get to use that? And especially with the new money, can't they deliver more water to people here?

AJ: 25:33

Yeah.

Andrew: 25:34

But um after that pipe burst last year, they're like, we have to redesign that, you know. So why don't we deliver more water here? Um, but it's like really political and yeah, didn't it didn't really get that far. Really? Yeah, as far as I know. I think incredible. Yeah, so if you drive if you drive that way, you can see the mountain, you know, that way. Oh yeah. Um this is going to the sun where you see the car. And this is called Wild Goose Island. It's very pretty. Yeah. Go to it. Very, very pretty. And these like glacier valleys are kind of like the signature of glacier park. You can see them here. Yeah.

AJ: 26:12

Yeah. Beautiful with the wow, isn't it? Oh, we just it's a hell of a sitting right now.

Andrew: 26:18

I have seen bears just like really crossing the road, like running in front of me while I'm driving this road. So may not be wrong. We didn't bring the baseball. What? We didn't bring the baseball. I know, me neither. Me neither. Yeah, that's so true. Yeah, I was hearing about your your bear encounter in the night.

AJ: 26:42

Pretty wild. We liked on the Sphinx Mountain in the Medicine Valley, which apparently is a hot one for the grizzlies. And sure enough, we were sitting there. We were four. And we had two games. Right. And being alone, obviously, but in that context, I was going on being displayed.

Andrew: 27:04

Yeah, I know, I know. No, me too. I mean, run the car is ideal. Exactly. Um, this time of year is pretty good because if you're on the trails, there's usually a lot of people. You sort of get to see one, but like exactly, you know, they're not typically going to attack like a line of people hiking. Yeah. Um but the fall time is when I would be scared. Like I would say. Like when they're like really feasting before they hibernate and pretty desperate. Or the spring when they're just out and like hungry for anything. But they're usually a bit slower. I mean, that's the crazy thing about like recognition is just how much it changes so fast. You know, like you're at the headwaters and then suddenly you're, you know, four thousand feet lower. Yeah, you know, in the start of the prairie.

AJ: 28:08

Right, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, you expect them to develop a particular specialty in one or the other. Right. But no.

Andrew: 28:17

Well, they had a seasonal round. Uh yeah, I mean, so there were summer camps up here, you know, and winter camps on the plains. That's right.

AJ: 28:26

Um, it's such a huge expansive terrain. Yeah, it really is.

Andrew: 28:31

It really is. But I mean, of course, the the Black Vee Nation is so much smaller than the actual ancestral range, but still to have a lot of that variety. Um of course it's you know an awful shame that the park is structured somewhat the way it is. It's not Blackfee land in terms of accessing those things. But um can tell you we just like excitingly, last year we we had uh um we kind of got admitted to this like club where you're allowed to do work in the national parks. It was pretty funny. We were like, I'm sure this club is literally like a bunch of white men sitting around drinking like drinking and smoking cigars in like a wooded room, and we get on Zoom for like the interview to like meet, and it was like a wooded room in T Town National Park or something, something like that, a bunch of white guys. Um but yeah, anyway, it's this like cooperative agreement thing where now we are able to do like projects in the national parks, um, which is cool. So we can like take groups out there, we can do monitoring projects, um still not what we'd want, like what everybody would want. No But it's is a step, and and the new like superintendent is pretty progressive, so yeah. Like you saw in the documentary, maybe. Did you notice that? Yeah, yeah. That guy Dave Romer.

AJ: 29:40

That's right. Um bring them home. So that's right. Yeah, yeah, it's um at home, it's certainly and maybe in particular in Western Australia, certainly in Western Australia, co management, joint management, yeah, is really becoming a thing. That's awesome. And uh and we talked about that yesterday, as and Kim was like, yeah, that would be ideal.

Andrew: 29:57

I mean, yeah, there's been I don't necessarily see it evolving in the Next three years, but like there's been a lot of initiatives in the Northwest around salmon, you know, and other places toward co-management. And I mean the reintroduction of the transboundary herd, the in the the buffalo herd, you know, is a big thing here for sure. Um but yeah, I mean the thing that just hurts too, it's it's it's so directly. It's like what Kim was saying, like, you know, even in the park, they just don't hire locally. Like it's it's folks from Eastern Europe who are wonderful, you know, but like they kind of bring everybody in and it just misses a whole opportunity to like bring folks in and build connection to the landscape there.

AJ: 30:37

But well that that's the corollary back home is is ranger programs that are drawn from the indigenous community. So you've got next generations who lost those links in many cases. Right. You know, I think of one part, the Northwest Cape in Western Australia had had like has like two elders left to speak the language. Wow. But their kids and and their cousins and whatever are coming into these programs of joint management now. Right. It's just caught it, you know, before the thread was lost, and it's really powerful.

Andrew: 31:03

Have you seen you've seen these cars, right? I haven't seen it. Oh, that's the they're these cars they somehow keep alive from the 30s that are like the glacier mobiles. They take people um across going to the sunroad. Because like a lot of people I think will just you stay at these hotels. So this is the hotel. And then you yeah, it's a shuttle. You can hop on the shuttle. Uh we should probably call Kim. I don't actually know where she went.

AJ: 31:24

They nine. Yes.

Andrew: 31:25

Oh, there she is. Okay, great. Good eye. That lake is just a large depressional wetland, you know. So it's shrinking a lot, which has been very tough to see too. Yeah. But there's a bunch of ice fishing that happens on there, which is very fun. This is an incredible spot in the park. I don't think we're gonna go today, but really that's Many Glacier, aptly named because there's lots of glaciers you can access there. Oh, these guys are pretty good. They make good burritos.

AJ: 31:53

Love it. Yeah, there's a truck on the side of the road with good burritos. Even in Montana. Yeah, exactly.

Andrew: 31:58

You know, as we get here, we're probably maybe 20 miles from Canada, I think less. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, we're really close now. This is the direction. There you go, the like, you know, card status Canada. Yeah, we're like 15 miles from Canada. Yeah, it's pretty cool. Yeah. Well, I shouldn't explain, of course, like the bands of the Blackfoot Confederacy, right, that are up in Canada. I've only read about it. We didn't actually tell you in any length, but uh just read about it. But yeah, there's um yeah, there's uh there's three tribes up there, and then one on the US side. Um together to form the Blackfoot Confederacy.

AJ: 32:34

And that was is that always where they were as well? Or retreating or no, I think they always were there.

Andrew: 32:43

Yeah. That's a good question. I don't know how I mean there was definitely more like transboundary, you know, trade and rotation in the seasonal round and that kind of thing. Um and there still is people, you know, going back and forth for ceremony and things a good bit. Um but no, I think similar to the black foot native, as far as I know, similar to here, which you know, here like this is where people were, it was just very confused. Yeah, I think it's similar up there.

AJ: 33:10

Yeah, that's that was my impression too. Yeah. Just to think it went from nearly sort of around near to Yellowstone.

Andrew: 33:17

Yeah, exactly. It's like, excuse me, evidence of trade way farther out than that, like you know, with Mexico and like other areas.

AJ: 33:25

Is there really unsurprising but fascinating to know that it's oh here's that canal, by the way.

Andrew: 33:30

So that's the way that left St. Mary's uh headed to Canada. And then there's people like, you know, like you can see a lot of the growth around it because there's seepage, like like this, that lake right there, yeah, you know, is formed by the canal. So people use that, and it's a good thing. Oh, these are new, that's interesting. Somebody making another cabin community um rental. But now people want to like line the canal to make it more efficient to bring more water to Canada, which means that people here would lose the benefits of the seepage, you know. So it's one of those sort of funny things where they're like, yeah, let's improve it, but actually that discourages folks from accessing or prevents them from accessing here.

AJ: 34:10

That's almost the industrial delivery in a nutshell.

Andrew: 34:13

Yeah, exactly.

AJ: 34:14

Making things better in the wrong way.

Andrew: 34:16

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. You know, I found it really interesting because the whole purpose of the canal was like to subjugate folks into like sedentary forms of agriculture, you know? Yes. It's like now how do we make these allotments like function like Western agriculture with land ownership by like providing them water as opposed to letting people move and access their own water, you know? Um so my my project was kind of like how do we use this system for good? You know, it exists now, provides water, but how do we like revision it with the goals of the community in mind?

AJ: 34:47

Well, that's we need Mexico's interesting, isn't it? Yeah, that they s they sort of have that at their own.

Andrew: 34:51

Well, yeah, are you thinking of the Asequias? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, it's a Spanish thing, which is also interesting. That's like an older form of colonization. But um, no, the community. Did you get to yeah, you visited some? Visited some, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, super cool. Exactly all of that. The ways communities like care for the canals and clean them and distribute the water. Yeah. What did you see down there? Like which one, where did you get to?

AJ: 35:15

Well, we went, yeah, we spent a bunch of time around Albuquerque, obviously, and but and and visiting some of the pueblos in northern New Mexico in general, but it was really seeing some up around Santa Fe, well actually particularly closer to Dixon. Where we were taken out on land. Yeah. Dixon's sort of an hour. Other side of Espanola from Santa Fe. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. And there were some people there doing land remediation and and with the Pueblos, and funnily enough, it's some connection back home. It was crazy. Yeah, yeah. Literally with Western Australia too, it was crazy.

Andrew: 35:46

Oh neat.

AJ: 35:47

And yeah, some of the stuff they were doing there with the secchias and and then getting the old getting that um, you know, the erosion gullies remediated to be having the water be able to filter across landscape again and all that sort of stuff. It's just really fascinating.

Andrew: 36:06

Yeah, definitely.

AJ: 36:07

And and it was expanding, like they were going, they were increasingly working with different Pueblos around the region.

Andrew: 36:12

Oh, that's cool.

AJ: 36:13

Which is how the Australian link came in because there's this Dutch NGO that does this globally.

Andrew: 36:17

Yeah, yeah.

AJ: 36:18

They do so much good water work in the Netherlands. Yeah, yeah.

Andrew: 36:21

Did you get to see around Chaco any of the mines? Any of the uncovered uranium mines? No. Oh yeah. Did they tell you about that down there a little bit? Yeah. Yeah. That's just such a tough situation. I mean, there's just so much. Um we were doing a project with folks some there, not with Pacani Lodge, um, I was some before. We're just thinking about like um how do you how do you manage against the toxic flooding that happens in the open pit uranium mines? You know, because there's so much of that just left uncovered. Really? And some of them are really close to Jaka. Um, so it's pretty scary in various ways for producers, for groundwater sources.

AJ: 36:59

Yeah, so much at stake.

Andrew: 37:01

Yeah, so much at stake.

AJ: 37:02

And no, we heard more about the fracking thread.

Andrew: 37:04

Oh, interesting.

AJ: 37:05

Yeah, because that's that's apparently coming on strong. And you know, some some tribal folk want it.

Andrew: 37:11

Oh yeah? Yeah. Interesting.

AJ: 37:13

And it's the same with the Navajo, like some a lot. I saw a headline on a paper in uh I think it was Albuquerque, um, at the Pueblo Cultural Center. Oh, yeah. That's Albuquerque, isn't it? Yeah. And uh and the paper was for sale in the in the the shop there that had Navajo stuff as well. This was a Navajo paper, and the front page was delighting in Trump getting into office and and getting all the oil and gas up and going. And I was like, but I had a double take. I'm like, Wow, is it happy about it? Yeah, and it it was it was happy about it because they're gonna make money.

Andrew: 37:44

Yeah. Wow. That's quite a few parts.

AJ: 37:46

That is quite a few.

Andrew: 37:47

You remember this from the movie, no? So this is where we're gonna go to the spot right where they reintroduced the closing sequence. Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it'll be close to where that medicine wheel was that we made it. Oh yeah, that's right. Unbelievable. Yeah. Oh, what is this? Oh, it's a little deer. Little Bub. That's a mule deer with the big ears. Yeah. Old legs. We never get tired of it. That's that. We never get tired of it. Oh, no, I mean not. These, I was just gonna say, these aspen stands are some of the most beautiful. Like in the in the fall, these are all bright yellow everywhere. Yeah, it's really beautiful. They're they're one of our favorites.

AJ: 38:30

Right?

Andrew: 38:30

Yeah.

AJ: 38:32

Shimmering lights everywhere.

Andrew: 38:35

They're also so amazing how they're like one being connected rhizomatically. You know? Yeah. They like they sprout through rhizomes, and sometimes people call them like the largest living beings, you know? Because it's like one body. Yeah. Um, which is pretty cool. Very cool. Yeah, the way they shimmer up here, it's pretty amazing. Yeah, this gets I've seen some big grizzly prints up here, but never uh repair, I don't think. Probably. Okay. Yeah. Okay, sounds great. Let's do it. Yeah, so let's haven't been to medicine wheel since we made it. Awesome. So I don't think there's any bison out there this year. Right. When they released those, I think it went well. Also, they learned some things and they tried to gather them back up and try to manage it a little bit differently. Okay. So, um, yeah, there's a chance you see one. I also didn't bring all of them back. I think some of them rewilded themselves, you know, or in the park. Yeah, interesting. It was a really rainy day we came out in that. It was fun, but I was drenched and freezing. Where's she going? Oh, all right. That's a good spot. It'll be right in the documentary, too.

AJ: 39:51

Yeah, that's what I'm feeling, yeah. It was such a moving film. You know, to have read up to the point in Liz's book, yeah, and then seen the film to the next point. Right. That was really shot.

Andrew: 40:06

So, like I mean, I can say quickly, but like we were starting to talk yesterday about how our work relates to bison a bit too. And in very like we serve bison producers. We work with some folks who are running bison. Okay, wildflowers up here are amazing. Amazing. The whole area essentially purple and yellow. But a lot of it is us serving the community of cattle producers. So we're not like it's gets pretty political, you know. And I heard about it. The honest truth is, you know, a lot of people are like, well, you know, we we don't want as many bison necessarily, or we want to maintain our way of life as it is. Um come so far down the Lord and all that. Yeah, exactly. So we think of it as bison mimicry, you know, in the good ways. Yes. Um people don't want it framed that way, and we have to be mindful that like we're not trying to mimic everything they do, you know, we're trying to think of the natural ways they moved across the prairie and who moved them and how they you know disturbed the soil and supported succession. But oh yeah, so somebody built some sweat lodges out here. That was a few years ago, I think, when we did the yeah, so those would be covered in hides traditionally or blankets. It's very special, even just to say that.

AJ: 41:09

Yeah, and if it isn't anti solid, yeah, oh totally. Absolutely.

Andrew: 41:13

Is that the medicine wheel out there? There's like a hide here. I don't know if this came off a sweat lodge or if this is I don't think this naturalized like this.

Kim: 41:23

Somebody might come out of it. Yeah.

Andrew: 41:26

Oh, there we go. Verizon, welcome to Canada.

AJ: 41:31

Oh, this is special to be here. I just call it prairie smoke.

Kim: 41:35

Prairie smoke, okay. And then this one.

AJ: 41:38

Oh wow, yeah. Look at that.

Kim: 41:41

Prairie smoke is my favorite. But it's it's past it. Really? The month past. Oh, they're calling that. I think we're doing it. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and it has the long little spidery fronds on it. I love it. Oh, there's one here.

Andrew: 41:58

Death camus.

Kim: 41:59

Right here by your knee.

Andrew: 42:00

Mountain death camus. It won't. If that when the livestock eats a lot of those, it's bad, but and this is yarrow.

Kim: 42:06

You know, yarrow, we call it gulfy tail. Put it on your mosquito. Is that right? If you have a bee sting or any kind of sting, just push it up. But it has to be your saliva. Yeah, right. Mix it with water and you just put it. It's the best. There you go.

AJ: 42:24

Yeah, sure.

Kim: 42:25

It pulls a bee sting, it pulls anything out of it. Amazing.

AJ: 42:29

That's cool.

Kim: 42:29

Yeah, so it's Yarrow, but you know, if you want to be black be gopher tail.

Speaker 5: 42:35

Gopher tail. We've always called it gopher tail.

Speaker: 42:39

To try not to do to try to do a little somebody.

Speaker 5: 42:45

But if it happens now, you know what to do. I like your plan.

Kim: 42:49

I like it.

Andrew: 42:51

You were out here when we did this, right? So we formed like a huge line. Probably like 50 people. And this elder sort of guided us in how to arrange the medicine wheel. And it was really amazing.

AJ: 43:04

The rocks were brought up.

Andrew: 43:06

Yeah, somebody gathered some like rocks from the river, I think. Yeah. And dumped them here a couple days earlier. Wow. And uh yeah. It's pretty cool. Then you fly a drone up and it is a pretty perfect circle, but we didn't do that at the time, you know. Really? Yeah. You just eyed it. There were a couple elders who were telling us kind of how to arrange it all. Yeah, it's pretty cool. It's so cool. It's amazing you were involved in that. Yeah, it was crazy like honor. I mean it's amazing. Yeah. Yeah, it's an honor just to be here. Totally. Yeah, this would be a fun spot to fly a drone, but nice to experience it the way you do on the ground.

Kim: 43:43

What it really was was um for this particular night. Cows are screaming. A gathering of everyone celebrating the fact that we got this land all closed off for the buffalo. And so then asking for prayers, they smoked pipe, and then each person who was here in that celebration gathered rocks and made the medicine wheel, which will be uh kind of an eff of the four directions. Yeah, Tracy was here. This is where he said his first prayer completely in Blackbean. Do you wanna um say it for us now? We can record you.

Speaker: 44:19

Ayo, it's the back of the uh Ayo Nata Vita Pix Bomita Peaks.

Kim: 44:37

And then you take it to your heart, put your hand to your heart, and that's the prayer. So he was asking creative here and the day. It's beautiful, eh? That is beautiful.

AJ: 44:49

It's such a beautiful language game.

Kim: 44:51

And it's so descriptive, right? Yeah, right. So descriptive. There's no so many words we don't have, like uh we don't have a word for a computer. It's a box that gives gives knowledge, right? I like that. The box that gives knowledge.

AJ: 45:05

I like that, as opposed to the box that sucks life out of people.

Andrew: 45:09

I mean that's almost you just let it be. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

AJ: 45:12

Let's have a box that does that. That's cool.

Kim: 45:14

Exactly. This is uh Utugui Mustaki, that's yellow mountain. And uh Chief Nina stucky chief mountain. Nina is like father or chief, but you know, hi holy. Notu is holy. Notui ninja. Holy chief. So my boys have climbed this four or five times. On Mother's Day before we had all these phones and everything, it was like beeper time. They uh climbed up and made a a video. We were still in DVD world and they climbed up to the top and they made a video.

AJ: 45:49

The old dice.

Kim: 45:50

Yeah, the old dice. They made a video, and Reese made a video from the top of all of them, and then he intertwined it like with me driving my 62 Corvette, and then with Dan. You're like what have we not seen this?

Andrew: 46:05

Oh, it's you've seen it at the house. It's at the house, too.

Kim: 46:08

Really? It needs love. I just have had so many different priorities. The last cruise that it took was for homecoming and the football, you know, they drive it out on the field, and they're the homecoming king and queens and all that kind of stuff. But anyway, um he he I don't know how he did it because that was back in the day, right? But he melded the top of Chief Mountain and looking out with you know uh that one Tupac song, Dear Mama, and then uh and then uh um Young Grey Horse, our music, Indian music, and then he had fancy dancers. Reese did this? Yeah, that's incredible.

Andrew: 46:45

I know he does the video, I think.

Kim: 46:47

But it was before the cell phone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was pretty sweet.

Andrew: 46:50

Oh, that's so cool.

Kim: 46:51

So sweet. That's so cool.

Speaker 5: 46:52

Anyway, from the top of Chief. Can um non-tribal people clog off?

Kim: 46:58

Good question. Well, yeah. You're not allowed unless you're with someone who's trial.

AJ: 47:04

What was the story with the release of the buffalo here? This land's not in the park, right? No. So it's just up to the tribal council to decide that it was cool to let the the landowners.

Kim: 47:15

We had to do the work with the landowners first. And then people who leased the land. And as soon as we were able to provide them with the same income that they would receive annually for having cattle on it, then and we got the approval from them, then the council could approve it.

AJ: 47:31

Got it. And then the park approved if they drifted in to the park. Yeah, uh-yeah, and that was the call.

Andrew: 47:37

But they wouldn't push them out. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kim: 47:39

They really want them to, but the Canadians don't. Really? Oh no. So they were trying to shoot them and just because of grass. First of all, this is the Gaina, this is our confederation. We have three tribes north of the medicine line. Yes. And then our tribe, so we're a four-tribe confederacy, a pot sipicani, um, Sixica, Gaina, and us. And uh, so we envisioned this happening, but because there's non-native people who've taken the land along the border, they were very angry about this Indian buffalo. I there's another uh bunch of doctors who put together a ranch and had buffalo, and they weren't killing their buffalo, but the Indian buffalo wasn't a good thing for them, apparently. They should know this is the birthplace of Thunder. This is a cre you know part of our initial creation story right here at Chief. They're lucky to be living there.

AJ: 48:36

Absolutely. That's how I'd feel frankly. I think they are. Absolutely.

Kim: 48:44

Oh, I don't either, sweetheart. You're right.

Speaker 5: 48:46

And how can they count?

AJ: 48:48

Stories we tell ourselves, yeah, shall we?

Speaker 5: 48:50

So remember though there was um that guy with Rebo who was telling us, yeah, exactly, that a lot of ranch farmed buffalo, he called them beefalo.

Andrew: 48:59

Or actually beefalo. Yeah, yeah, I think it's true. Yeah.

Speaker 5: 49:02

So the wildest is bright out of them.

Andrew: 49:04

Right, right. Yeah, there's some of that. Kim, part of the strain that was am I right that part of the strain was the Elk Island strain that was released up here? Yeah.

Kim: 49:11

Oh yeah, it was a lot of the flight. So that was the Elk Island drive.

Andrew: 49:14

Um you you might have seen that, but there was this do you want to explain that if you want?

Kim: 49:18

So when we were talking about uh the same parallel annihilation of the bikani and the Eni at the same time, um as we were dying off from having no acquired immunity to diphtheria and smallpox, etc., going from 60,000 to 3,800 at the same time was the the bounty placed on Eni. And so they were killed off from 60 million down to there were I believe 127 that found refuge in what is now called Yellowstone National Park, and when they were found, there was a I think his name was Allard, A-L-L-A-R-D, and he brought uh a portion of them to um to buy Flathead Lake. And I think they they continued to do so well that he had a hard time keeping them in his land base, and so I don't know if he gave them to the Elk Island Sanctuary or if he sold them or however it happened, but they're basically picani blackfeet buffalo that we found up in Canada uh at Elk Island, and then they returned them to us to the tribe, but it was a huge thing, it took years, and then um oh it was beautiful. It was maybe twenty below, it was so cold that day.

Andrew: 50:35

And there were some like from the Oakland Zoo, also, right? There was the zoo in Oakland that had part of the strain also. I thought those traced their lineage. Maybe, maybe, maybe I'm not sure how it was.

Kim: 50:47

I know they were a partner in getting them back, but yeah, oh royal, yeah, yeah. Yeah, they were a partner in getting it back. So I don't know.

AJ: 50:53

Yeah, I remember Terry Tatsy saying something like because I was really curious about this point, saying something because it was the genetic strain from here, right? It was amazing to behold how they just resumed, even with that hundred-year break or whatever it was, they resumed their patterns. Yeah, exactly. Incredible, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It goes to show what might be in us humans. I mean, maybe you're experiencing some of this with the work you're doing. Could you say the same, like epigenetically?

Kim: 51:20

With the traditional diet, yeah, when you connect it all up. Yeah. How can you not be grateful for this?

AJ: 51:25

Oh my god, that's it.

Kim: 51:27

You know, and it's 40 below and the wind's blowing 100, you're still grateful.

Andrew: 51:31

Oh, I was just describing how wonderful the winter was.

AJ: 51:34

Yeah, yeah. I'm trauma. Totally coming down.

Andrew: 51:37

Oh, you feel so alive.

AJ: 51:38

Oh my gosh.

Andrew: 51:39

Oh my god, we're dead. No, no. You're forced to be alive. You gotta keep moving.

Kim: 51:47

We're so grateful. Yeah.

AJ: 51:51

Oh, it's so amazing to be up here. Oh, I'm so glad we came here. I just find it so incredibly moving. I agree with the medicine wheel. It's just again from an outsider. I don't know why I feel that, but I feel it. Because it's energy, right?

Kim: 52:04

Wow, right. You know a mountain lion sounds like someone yelling. Yeah, so it could be a mountain lion.

AJ: 52:09

Sounded like that, huh? There's a cow. It sounded like screaming. Maybe mountain lion. Oh, you're listening?

Kim: 52:20

Yeah.

Andrew: 52:21

Some screaming? Yeah. Do you have some cattle reacting to it?

Kim: 52:26

Well, there shouldn't be cattle down in here, right?

Andrew: 52:28

We heard it be, didn't we? Yeah. There's cattle. No, there should be 40,000 acres of conservation land. Oh, isn't it? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5: 52:40

Did you see that?

AJ: 52:41

No, I heard it. For quite a while. And extended appearance.

Kim: 52:49

That's a lot of cows up there.

Andrew: 52:50

There's a lot of cows. Like Kim was saying, these were all range units that were leased, you know, before they were transitioned. Right.

Kim: 52:57

This is Kanikanik. This is the yeah, that's very small. This is our wild tobacco. Oh. Yeah. So this is what we always used for tobacco.

AJ: 53:05

And that's in harvest day. Yeah. You would grab it like that. You wouldn't it doesn't need to grow anymore.

Kim: 53:10

Nope. Uh-huh. It's a ground.

AJ: 53:11

It is.

Kim: 53:12

You can see how when you pick it up, it it it's a ground cover. So yarrow, gopher tail, and then canikinick. And the whatever that's actually like. Shrubby Shinkwifoil. Yeah. And so now that we have tobacco, we still dry the canikinik and we mix it. Really? So it's not so harsh the tobacco in the pipe. And different families sometimes have different recipes. Uh what's Mr. Still Smoking's name that um was working with he went to Minnesota and worked with the sous chef. Oh. He was our intern. Seth? Seth, yeah. So Seth uh brought me their family stuff. Really? Oh wow. So sweet. I just had big teeth. Oh that's amazing. So we could drive to the border?

Andrew: 54:03

Yeah, that's right.

Kim: 54:11

That's a town, a bull. Oh. That's a bull.

AJ: 54:17

Yeah. Maybe it was that one alone. Maybe. Or he's getting attacked.

Kim: 54:21

Maybe.

AJ: 54:22

It's pretty hard to return.

Andrew: 54:27

That's special food. Right? Yeah. Yeah, we hosted a tour out here last fall. There's a group we work with called the Transboundary Grasslands Partnership. That's pretty cool. And uh it's groups from different like Department of Natural Resources and nonprofits. And we uh hosted the international like conference last fall. And so like we put together a field tour of our producer sites and we brought everybody brought everybody right there. But we didn't walk them to the Medicineville. It's a cool group, it's not it doesn't have like political power. You know, it's just like a group that tries to build collaboration and share data and partnership in this, you know, what some people call the crown of the continents using that term. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think it's kind of a funky, like, you know, um colonist sounding term. Yes. With the crown involved. Do you have like sponsors of your podcast that support it?

AJ: 55:20

All listeners. Oh, cool. All listeners, yep. So I haven't need to worry about it.

Andrew: 55:24

I mean, that's great.

AJ: 55:25

It was I because dad was dying when I was going through the process. I really should get some support avenues up and go.

Andrew: 55:32

Yeah.

AJ: 55:33

And um, and I just didn't get to it. Yeah, people started to send money.

Andrew: 55:38

Amazing.

AJ: 55:38

And then I when I did get to it. People subscribe to it or people. Well they just started to send money, period. Yeah. And then I set up Patreon.

Andrew: 55:45

Yeah, oh nice.

AJ: 55:46

And then, and you know, I was still hoped it didn't fall flat on its ass and be embarrassing, and everyone would now know.

Andrew: 55:51

It's a lot to maintain, right? It's a lot of things.

AJ: 55:53

Well, there's that way too. But I made it simple, I didn't have tears or anything. Yeah, good. And people jumped on. That's awesome. So it's all listener support, and I don't have to chase the grants or shit. Right, right, right. It's and you know, this is that's wonderful. Just while we're on it, think about this even with regards to Picani, for example.

Andrew: 56:10

No, it's really interesting. Yeah.

AJ: 56:12

The monthly subscription-based stuff for people who just want to see it. Right keep going.

Andrew: 56:16

Right. Why not? It's so true. It's something we honestly we haven't like, yeah, we haven't focused on publicity very much at all. Yeah. And now that we uh yeah, we've thought we should do it some more. In part because of the funding, in part just to share the story, like as we've just done more conferences and you know, we we have a lot of peer-reviewed publications that like we have in process that we want to publish. We feel like we should or could. Yes. You know, whether it's like our graduate work or like existing work or whatever. Um and we just don't put time because we're like a small crew emphasizing getting the work done. Yeah. So, but no, no, I think I think it's worth it.

AJ: 56:51

I think it is too. Yeah, in fact, I'm convinced of the more I've gone on with this, like, you know, whatever it is now, ninth year, the more I'm convinced. And the more I'm told by people who are just doing the work.

Andrew: 57:06

That's cool.

AJ: 57:07

That they see, they realize now. So I I think um, like the work you're doing helps bring some.

Andrew: 57:12

But that's what keeps me going together. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's very cool. Yeah, we're just about to work with this really cool um indigenous-led media company called Anamiki. Really? Um, yeah, they're based in I think the Seattle area, but they have folks from a few different tribal communities. Um, and we're building a new website and also like a new sort of community outreach platform within that. And I think part of the idea is also like a funder type platform, you know, just to better understand what we do. Because as you said, like we do a lot. Yeah, sometimes it's kind of hard to encapsulate and kind of grasp onto, which is kind of okay with it. I think it's kind of cool, but it's like, no, we're not just like, you know, we're not just an agriculture organization, like we're not just you know a youth organization, like kind of seeing this in a holistic way. Um, that sometimes gets a little bit crazy, but ultimately like is pretty real in how we try to address things. So anyway, it's it's kind of hard to communicate sometimes.

AJ: 58:12

Yeah.

Andrew: 58:12

So we're hoping that they can kind of help us uh hone that down into like a digital platform and some storytelling that you know makes some sense. It's awesome. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It'd be fun. I think we're gonna visit with them like on the land later this summer or fall and sort of do some visioning sessions together. Should be should be good.

AJ: 58:30

So if you're cool enough, mate, that we that window might be brushing your uh that we just brushing might too.

Andrew: 58:38

Yeah, yeah.

AJ: 58:38

Um worries. No, I'm really pumped to hear that, Andrew, because uh I've I've partly been waiting. Well, for a while I was waiting, calling, but now I'm seeing everywhere these little media units popping up of all kinds, right? Like this company I'm talking about. Yeah, exactly. And uh and I reckon that's where it's it's again, it's just doing it for yourselves, like just peer peers supporting each other in all the different ways, whatever we can bring to the table to start. Yeah, totally. And uh and because media's been smashed too, right?

Andrew: 59:09

It's it's in its whole thing, yeah.

AJ: 59:11

And so there's an opportunity for everyone. Yeah, it's like we're all in the same boat. Yeah, we're wanting something that transcends the old way anyway. Right, totally. Let's team up, totally.

Andrew: 59:21

And it's hard, frankly, with any community, but with like a rural indigenous community, the folks are less connected like to the web.

AJ: 59:27

Yeah.

Andrew: 59:27

It's it's obvious. Yeah. But we struggle with just like how do we best share our message that's like dynamic and interesting? So, like, is it TikTok? Is it like, you know, how are we reaching all these different folks? Or you know, are we just making phone calls and house visits, you know? Yeah, yeah. Um, but I think for like where we're at, um anyway, with like national partnerships and things, it it helps to have a platform that you can reference, you know.

AJ: 59:50

Yeah, I think so.

Andrew: 59:52

Yeah, we put together just like a nice looking impact report this spring, excuse me. And it got good feedback right away. Like, oh, okay, if people want to see. See, you know, these graphics in one place or that kind of thing.

AJ: 1:00:03

So yeah, no doubt. Yeah. Yeah, it's good. I'm glad.

Andrew: 1:00:06

Yeah. But like social media is a total we've talked about it. And I just I I've sort of, you know, been the hypocrite anyway. I'll be like, yeah, it's really great. Like, and then I just don't prioritize posting. I'm just not doing that, you know. Do you do it? Yeah. Not really? Not at all.

AJ: 1:00:23

Yeah. I I don't even come to feel like it's great. I feel like it's I I've come to feel like it's so bad, in fact.

Andrew: 1:00:29

Oh, that may be.

AJ: 1:00:30

Yeah, that um and sure, not absolute, and that's where it gets complex. Like I've been tempted back in on different platforms, and I know there are some better than others, and they're coming in. And they should, like, it's not a hard thing technologically to do. Right. So there are some more, you know, moral, uh, ethical units coming in, and so I've got friends on, well, you know, I've got Signal on the phone for that sort of thing. I've got friends on Mastodon, Blue Sky, you know, these sorts of things, who say they're good. I mean, I even I joined Substack to write a bit of cool because that seems to have an ethical base. Yeah. So that's good. And there should be, and maybe that offers opportunity.

Andrew: 1:01:07

Reddit's pretty good in a way. Yeah, that's right, exactly.

AJ: 1:01:09

Yeah. But you know, your meta stable, uh obviously, I mean, X do I even need to say. I mean, some people are fans of that because a lot of journos are still there, but a lot bailed on it too.

Andrew: 1:01:20

I mean, it's just kind of like how do you offer that weigh in for some people? That's you know, I think about it. So, like, yes, if we have a bunch of youth or if we have, you know, potential partners, like we a lot of the partners are pretty active on social media. Yes. And, you know, yeah, you're gonna see a video on traditional diet next to your like skateboard crash video or whatever, but like that's okay. You know, like if we're there and maybe it makes somebody sort of just head to the land instead of spending so much time on social media, it's kind of like, oh, that's how do you get in somebody's head a little bit. So that's the argument, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

AJ: 1:01:54

Um, what I find is that, well, I think what we're seeing at a macro level is that the algorithmic supercharge is so much bigger than those micro gains. Right. And even crap posts. Right. There's just this beast behind and under it. Right. That um That's a great view about that. It is unbelievable.

Andrew: 1:02:20

That's not the side you climb, by the way. Right. You climb the other side. Yeah, yeah.

AJ: 1:02:24

That sucks people in to patterns that again just this is my feeling, that just dwarfs micro gains.

Andrew: 1:02:34

Yeah, that's interesting.

AJ: 1:02:35

And I think if that wasn't true, we would see a bit of a different pattern, yeah, a macro pattern from those things right now. But what we're seeing is just oligarchic centralization of power drawn from the blood, and literally in many cases of people who are who are drawn in. I know.

Andrew: 1:02:53

So it's hard. I mean, then there's also like, you know, like that post I showed you about the dogs yesterday. Like people here do communicate on Facebook a lot. I know. It's kind of the commons, like a lot of people, you know, um Guatemala sells, sell things, yeah, get their information, like get jobs, whatever. So we don't do that. I mean, that's all we do is is meta, you know, which not a huge fan of, but like we do Facebook and Instagram. Um, yes. But anyway, I think like if anything, we just want more multimedia, like, and we just haven't taken the time to do it. Like, yeah, I have a lot of great drone footage and we have voiceovers, and like it's not that I'm not you know trying to enter a film competition, but it's not that hard to overlay things and like show the power of some of the work in the site. Yeah, um, so anyway, so that even if it's just on our website, um I think could be helpful. I think so too.

AJ: 1:03:40

You know, I I take that really seriously for that. To make it more tangible, yeah. Website? Yeah. And no, I do too. And good old email as well. Yeah, yeah. And podcasts, for that matter.

Andrew: 1:03:51

Yes.

AJ: 1:03:52

They each go directly to the people who have asked for it. Yeah. There's no algorithmic interference. Yeah, you have to pay to reach the people that have said they're following you.

Andrew: 1:04:00

Do you have like a newsletter that you send out? I do as well. Yeah. Yeah. So I see good returns from that? Amazing. Yeah, yeah. That's interesting. No, we've just been talking about yeah, doing a newsletter. Some people feel like it's too much that people just get too many emails, you know? It's true. And we've also just gotten requests. We've we did it a few years ago and we had another project that we had a newsletter for, and um, and we kind of got requests from producers like, hey, where's it? Like, we love the newsletter, updates on deadlines, yeah, events and things. Yeah, there you go. Um, and I think we should do it, honestly. But some people just yeah, think it's not worth the time. So um it's I'm not totally sure.

AJ: 1:04:35

If you're gonna apply the argument that email is saturated, right, you could apply that to any of the above.

Andrew: 1:04:40

Yeah, that's true. Yeah, yeah. So it's just I don't think we're gonna do it every week. It'd be, you know, once a month or something. Maybe even two. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

AJ: 1:04:46

Or when something is hot.

Andrew: 1:04:48

Right. I mean, I also just think our website, I'm hoping, can be uh an ongoing platform where you can offer information, and so like the newsletter in part would be oh, you know, check out the website for this. Yeah, uh which would not overwhelm you with information unless you want more.

AJ: 1:05:03

So 100%.

Andrew: 1:05:04

Here we go into the park. I've actually never been here.

AJ: 1:05:06

I think the key the key is that you're reaching the people who do want it. Yeah, and you're reaching all of the people who are directly. Exactly.

Andrew: 1:05:14

Yeah, but your point even about like Patreon and just support is interesting. We've never really talked about that. We have like a donate button, and during COVID we got a lot of donations because Kim probably mentioned, but we pivoted during COVID to like I mean we we also did our work, but we some of it we couldn't do, and we delivered meals and you know we got a lot of grants for that, sort of micro grants. Um amazing, and like that summer of 2020 we had an internship program. Like we were in the field doing some agriculture work, but anyway.

AJ: 1:05:43

Um, I think um whether it's Patreon or something else, but it could certainly be Patreon.

Andrew: 1:05:47

At least put it on the agenda. Yeah, yeah, we should check it out. Yeah, I'm gonna talk to those media people about it too. Yeah, I think and just right on. I wonder what they do. Yeah, what do they do? Yeah, they've got a pretty good company. I think they've grown it, you know, pretty broadly, mostly serving tribal clients, um, which is really cool. It's very cool. Yeah.

AJ: 1:06:05

So we're back in the park with no cue, huh? That's interesting.

Andrew: 1:06:08

Exactly. I don't think there's any like, you know, visitor center trail. So that's going to the sun road, right? So that's the end of it, which is crazy. And it's also, I think, just about the exact time where you don't need a permit. Anyway, when we were lining up, it's like two or three o'clock that it starts. Some people might have been like, okay. Yes. Wow, look at this. Yeah, this is definitely this feels like Pole Bridge where we were talking about. Yeah. The kind of natural state of things up here just always gets me, though. It's really wonderful, you know? Totally. Um, so much that's so difficult. Yeah, exactly.

AJ: 1:06:43

Yeah, it's very quite so striking.

Andrew: 1:06:45

Yeah.

AJ: 1:06:47

Like I need it, we all need it, yeah, in some way. Oh, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andrew: 1:06:52

It's really, it's really something. Do you ever listen to the Rewilding podcast?

Speaker 7: 1:06:58

He's good, I think. Yeah. I don't subscribe, I think, but I listen sometimes. I just do a lot of good stories about efforts to concern everyone and what that means. Yeah.

Andrew: 1:07:07

The other one I listen to regularly is the Regenerative Agriculture Podcast. Oh, Joel's. Yeah, that one, yeah, yeah. Do you know him? Yeah.

AJ: 1:07:13

Absolutely. Oh, cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, he's uh they do some good stuff. An incredible story in itself. Yeah. Really?

Andrew: 1:07:20

Oh, I don't know that much about him, honestly.

AJ: 1:07:22

Yeah, I don't think. Hell of a story.

Andrew: 1:07:24

Yeah.

AJ: 1:07:24

You know, if you want to know more about him, I mean, we tried to meet up in Ohio, it didn't quite work, so it's like, oh, we're just holding out for him person, it hasn't quite worked, so we'll do something eventually. But we just had engagement at conferences and stuff. But um, yeah, if you want to hear some of his story, you know, it was a good chat he had was with uh RFK Jr. Really? On his podcast. No way.

Andrew: 1:07:46

Yeah. Fascinating.

AJ: 1:07:48

Recently or a while ago? No, before the election. Like during the election, I think maybe just before. When he was running, when RFK was still in the world. Well it came out when he was running.

Speaker 7: 1:07:57

Wow.

AJ: 1:07:57

But I think it was recorded before. That's interesting. It's so interesting, man. Yeah, yeah, that's wild. There's so many layers to this phenomenon right now. Oh my god. It's so not simple and it's so not forlorn in that sense. There's like there's angles that just so rough though. Yeah. Oh, I mean, exactly. Yeah.

Andrew: 1:08:14

There's no denying. We're half a mile from the border. Well, this one is closed all winter, I know that, because this road is not maintained.

AJ: 1:08:21

Really? Yeah.

Andrew: 1:08:23

Um, that's really good. But it's so bad.

AJ: 1:08:25

It's complex. And that's the funny thing too, right? RFK decides to stand Trump. Well, Trump smashes region ag everywhere. I know.

Andrew: 1:08:33

So it's like, it's so weird's just gonna pan out. Well he smashes regen ag but he tries to stand by producers, you know?

AJ: 1:08:40

Yeah, yeah. For the votes of the people that put him there. It's well, exactly. It can't. I don't think that contradiction can actually remain. We're not actually going, but oh, there's a trailhead here?

Speaker 7: 1:08:51

I didn't know that. That's super cool.

Speaker 13: 1:08:53

New Hampshire. Live fields are one of our favourite numbers.

Speaker 9: 1:08:56

Isn't that amazing? Yeah.

Andrew: 1:08:58

Have you watched Breaking Bad?

Speaker 9: 1:08:59

Have we? Oh, okay, okay. Someone put us on to it. After being in New Mexico, you probably should. Yeah. And New Had I won't even tell you it plays a small role, but I think Breaking Bad's amazing.

Andrew: 1:09:12

The Better Calls All series I think is almost even better. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is like a spinoff. I'm gonna get out, I think, for a minute.

AJ: 1:09:19

Yeah, we do. Okay.

Andrew: 1:09:22

You ready to go hiking? I think this is the border. I think if we pop out the road, that's as closest we're gonna get. John Tester was a great partner. He'd be here every year. He'd be at Indian Days. Is that right? That's where we hung out with him. I mean, I, you know, got to meet him a little. He would be at the Veterans Lodge with everybody. I wonder if you still will. It's a great question. I wonder too. It was so interesting here. Like, did you hear like just the the the that election? We're just bummed he didn't get re-elected. Oh totally.

AJ: 1:09:53

You know, yeah.

Andrew: 1:09:54

Uh when we went to when Kim was in Washington at that time, we visited with John Tester's office and he had a tree. Did you but yeah, one crazy stat I'd heard because that the tribal vote um determined much of the election in Montana because of that was like much of the swing swing vote. So there's a lot of campaigning here, and then Montana was possibly going to determine the Senate, you know. So I think the stat I saw was that there was some $390 million in advertising money spent in Montana, which was like two million dollars less than in Pennsylvania. Yeah, yeah. And the population here is like you know, a million people, you know what I mean? Per capita. Yeah, so per capita is pretty insane. Yeah, um, and yeah, it's I mean some of the tribal community did not go for tester, you know? Yeah, why is that? Yeah, what's your read? I honestly don't know. It's the Crow nation that doesn't vote Democratic, they vote Republican typically, and I'm not totally sure why. Um I should I should know more, honestly. Um I don't know, some of it may be pro resource extraction, I'm not really sure.

Speaker 7: 1:10:58

Yeah, not really sure.

Andrew: 1:11:00

But it was also interesting because this was the first time, like Montana shifted so much politically, but this was the first time, like that it was very rare that we had a Democratic senator at all, right? Because it's like a Republican state. Yes. But this was the first time they were forced to like see them on the same ballot because of the way the Senate terms are every six years, you know what I mean? Oh of course. So like it staggered. Of course. So last Trump election, like Montana win Trump, but they also re-elected Tester, which is really interesting. Yeah, but this time they had Trump and Tester on the same ballot, and it wasn't good for the Democrats at all for whatever reason. Yeah. Yeah, I thought he did a lot of good things. Yeah. You know, he advocated for a lot of tribal agriculture, and you know, he's a agriculture producer himself, so people could relate.

AJ: 1:11:42

That's how we heard about him in Australia. Really? Yeah, and then he was on Foodies 2, the the film. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andrew: 1:11:48

Oh, that's cool. With Corey Booker. Right. He's great. Yeah. He's great. He actually helped us a bit on a grant, like release some money recently, which is pretty awesome. Yeah. Yeah. He just like, you know, advocated for a program that we were funded under and helped release a lot of funding for a lot of people on the agriculture project. Yeah. Yeah. Some sense it's almost, I don't know. It's almost freeing because politics here is so crazy. Yes. You're kind of like, well, screw it. Like, we gotta do good stuff. Yep. You know what I mean? As opposed to like sort of being sucked into the two-party system a little bit. You know what I mean? Um, so I don't know. Yeah, and I've heard that across the country. Like, I would hope, like you're describing, there's there's more independent, you know, like grassroots type. I need to learn more about that in Australia. That's really interesting because the two-party system here seems to be failing more and more. Exactly.

AJ: 1:12:39

Or just ripping the country apart. Yeah. And I wonder, you know, I'm not a fan of it, but I wonder what must if it might break out. I know this third party, whatever.

Andrew: 1:12:48

It might break open some more. Maybe, maybe, maybe. Yes, indeed. Because yeah, I don't know if that yeah, if that's really a future for the Democrats at all. Yeah. It may be a third thing. You know what I mean? Like I just can't see them identifying with that or a fourth thing. Sure, great.

AJ: 1:13:05

And so what I wanted to tell you though was that I did find people working in a very similar way to what's happening back home. So it really like it flashed lights at me because I recognized it as not just a fringe effort. This this can work. And and this the main exemplar, but it was by far not the only one because even this woman had learned from other organizations. Right. But she has since since becoming the youngest female senator in Maine's history, right? Didn't stand again to set up a non-profit to train and support others, right? Either stand or support those who stand. It's called dirt road organizing.

Speaker 6: 1:13:43

Okay.

AJ: 1:13:44

To bring essentially just kind, constructive politics back to rural America, but political representation back to rural America that doesn't have to feel like it needs to pull extreme triggers like what Trump would bring.

Speaker 13: 1:13:58

That's great.

AJ: 1:13:58

Because she was confronted when she came back from college with the nasty politics that had developed over those few years, and she was like, What?

Andrew: 1:14:04

This is my community, what's going on? Totally. How does it I mean what I thought for a while, which I uh I don't know, I'm not trying to like I I haven't talked to that many people about it or whatever, like haven't tried to be an activist around it. But it seems to me, naively, that like the state legislatures in this country are like pretty underrecognized. Like in Montana, there's a really active state legislature. Really? We've got, yeah, you know, the state representatives come some come from here, like they only meet every other year, so they meet every two years, and this was the session this year, which is why I was thinking about it. Yeah, and I don't know why those state legislatures just don't get to vote on national bills.

AJ: 1:14:41

Yes, like at a at a that's a good debate.

Andrew: 1:14:43

At a scale like this, like there's two senators for every state, you know. Montana's huge, yeah, it's not that populous, uh, but still the populist states also have two senators, and they're the ones voting on these bills. And sure, there's congressmen also who are supposed to represent, but I don't really know why, at least for certain bills, again, naive, but like why can't these state legislatures have a say on some more of these national programs? It just makes a lot more sense to me. Yes, I agree. Um, but yeah, we got to go down and lobby a little bit, which was nice. There's a lot of progressive folks in the state legislature, but also a lot of conservative folks.

AJ: 1:15:18

Well, to your point about state legislature, so dirt road organizing, by the time we met them, they've since had another cohort, but they'd had three go through. So just the last the 18 months prior to the election type stuff, three cohorts go through, six months each. There were 78, 78 people, something like that. Uh-huh. 39 of which stood for office, generally down ballot, so it's often state level. And out of that, yeah, four or five won. Like we did a debrief, I'm just trying to remember off the top of my head. Four or five actually won. Wow. And another four or five outperformed any previous democratic effort. Oh wow, it's huge.

Speaker 5: 1:15:57

Wow. Let's see.

Andrew: 1:15:58

Maybe I'll pull out just off to the framework. It's really big. Wow. Good eye, whoever spotted that. This is the spot to look. This is where I see that all crazy.

AJ: 1:16:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Two dog flats. Oh, and in front of that range I've been marveling at all day, too. Oh, that is crazy.

Speaker 5: 1:16:17

We thought it was a buffalo.

AJ: 1:16:19

Yeah, it's so big, huh? It's really big. Whoa. I know this is incredible. Fair to say we made a good decision, huh? Oh, this is a moment I've been waiting for for 15 months. Yeah, right? There you go. And it's just out in the open in the office.

Andrew: 1:16:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah, right? That's a big one. I mean, that's far.

AJ: 1:16:41

Yeah, yeah. It's funny, it's like the buffalo just to the kings of the terrain. Yeah, that's a roll. Absolutely. Yeah. Oh, look at it move.

Andrew: 1:16:51

Kill it.

AJ: 1:17:05

Did you spot it? Fifteen months in the waiting. Trouble the whole country, twenty-five thousand miles.

Kim: 1:17:16

I'm so happy for you all.

AJ: 1:17:21

Having a wonder.

Kim: 1:17:22

Yeah.

AJ: 1:17:23

Here I am, piercingly looking into forests and looking for any track that I could find. Just coming in on the meadow.

Kim: 1:17:31

And such a funny time of day. Yeah.

AJ: 1:17:33

Yeah.

Kim: 1:17:36

Come this way.

Andrew: 1:17:37

Yeah, right on.

Kim: 1:17:38

Books of box a queen.

Andrew: 1:17:40

Another quarter mile would be okay. Maybe half. Well, look how many people are. Oh my god. Bang.

AJ: 1:17:48

Oh my god. Just came in, huh?

Kim: 1:17:51

Yeah.

AJ: 1:17:51

Who's sorry? You? Me. Yeah, wow.

Kim: 1:17:55

Usually it's elk up in here.

AJ: 1:17:57

Yeah, that's a good idea.

Kim: 1:17:59

It used to be thousands of head.

Speaker 6: 1:18:01

Really?

Kim: 1:18:02

Theologists decided to uh bring the Arctic wolf in here to save the wolf. Now we have no elk here.

AJ: 1:18:09

Oh no, really?

Speaker 5: 1:18:11

For real. Oh no.

Kim: 1:18:12

They kill a small uh pack of wolves. They kill nine head of elk. That's like a pack of five or six. And there are thousands of wolves. Really? Yeah. They've just because they're top of the food chain, right? For their food chain.

AJ: 1:18:30

It's going out of balance the other way.

Kim: 1:18:32

Yeah, way out of balance. All the elk are are gone. And I would bring the kids up here and there'd be thousands ahead. This is called two dog flats.

Speaker 13: 1:18:41

Yeah.

Kim: 1:18:41

Thousands and thousands of head of head.

AJ: 1:18:45

Where'd he go? Where'd he go?

Kim: 1:18:47

Back into the brush, I think.

AJ: 1:18:49

Back into the I think so, yeah. What a moment.

Kim: 1:18:53

Oh, I'm so glad.

AJ: 1:18:56

That's cool. Isn't that cool? That's cool.

Kim: 1:19:00

Alright. Wow.

AJ: 1:19:04

Thank you.

Kim: 1:19:05

Yeah. Look at this ugly country. Who'd live here, Kim? Who'd live here? Who would live here? So ugly.

AJ: 1:19:15

I guess if you have to.

Kim: 1:19:17

That's why Andrew always goes home. He hates it.

AJ: 1:19:20

Can't wait to get back to Baltimore. Right. Nothing like that asphalt, let me tell you. I love the lines in that range. Yeah. Bloody beautiful.

Kim: 1:19:30

Bloody beautiful.

AJ: 1:19:31

Bloody beautiful mate.

Speaker 9: 1:19:35

You're good, you're good. Oh yeah. Okay.

AJ: 1:19:44

Yeah.

Kim: 1:19:45

Bloody beautiful mate.

AJ: 1:19:48

Like a parrot shouldn't repeat.

Kim: 1:19:51

Minor bird.

Speaker 9: 1:19:53

Cool view of the fire from here.

Kim: 1:19:54

Who gets to see? I haven't seen a birds in probably four years.

Speaker 1: 1:19:58

2015 or five. You too. It's been a while.

Kim: 1:20:03

Oh yeah.

Andrew: 1:20:04

You haven't since when, did you say?

Kim: 1:20:05

Probably four or five years. Because four years I was so sick. You weren't out as much as you.

AJ: 1:20:12

Didn't see when we saw a black bear on the road too. We're crossing the road.

Andrew: 1:20:20

Yep.

Speaker 1: 1:20:21

Pretty much. Yeah.

Kim: 1:20:22

Coming off of Chinese mountain?

Speaker 1: 1:20:25

Before. Just after the bottom.

Kim: 1:20:28

Oh really?

Speaker 1: 1:20:29

Yeah.

Kim: 1:20:31

No, it must have been behind us. Yeah. Oh, beautiful.

Speaker 13: 1:20:37

Oh yeah.

Kim: 1:20:39

We're gonna come pick here.

Speaker 9: 1:20:41

Yeah.

Kim: 1:20:42

Right here.

Speaker 9: 1:20:42

Yeah. Not right but all.

Kim: 1:20:44

No. Oh, here are people. Oh yeah.

Andrew: 1:20:50

A lot of people. This is the one park in Browning. Actually, uh the drummer from Pearl Jam donated a skate park for that park. Now I'm questioning if it was a guitar player because I don't know the band as well. But it was definitely somebody from Pearl Jam, so now we can look it up. Yeah.

AJ: 1:21:10

Mate, thanks. Yeah, of course. Outstanding.

Andrew: 1:21:13

Yeah, thanks for the journey today. Covered a lot.

AJ: 1:21:17

That's one of the most special days ever, frankly. Hello Georgino! That was Andrew Berger, Director of Agriculture and Climate Adaptation Programs at Picani Lodge Health Institute, alongside its ED and founder, longtime charging woman Kim Paul, with grandson Trayson and my fam along for the ride. That concludes our series from UmScappy Picani Blackfeet Nation. Though I do have one more brief offering for you related to the documentary that culminated at Chief Mountain. Bring them home. Stand by for that in a few days. You'll find a few photos on the episode webpage, of course, with more for subscribers as always, including as promised last week, some from the awesome Pow Wow and North American Indian Days Gathering generally. All with great thanks for making this episode possible, and with special thanks this week for notching up a fourth anniversary of your support, the incredibly generous Josie Simons, also the instigator of the podcast playlist on Spotify, Chris Dowling, Amy Rankin, Mary Ann, and Sven Stenvers, Love Is All. If you'd like to join us, be part of a great community, get some exclusive stuff, and help keep the show going, we'd love you to by just heading to the website, or the show notes, and following the prompts. Speaking of the playlist, Andrew did offer a few music tips later on. Johnny Corndog was a fave. And on Return East, he went to the famed Newport Folk Festival and messaged in two highlights Public Enemy, the festival's clearly come a long way since Bob Dylan's Electric Foray, and a young Cherokee singer named Ken Pomeroy. I've been listening to her ever since. The music you're hearing now is Regeneration by Amelia Bardin. My name's Anthony James. Thanks for listening. I don't know. I haven't got bothered to put the headphones on. Okay, good. But if it's clipping, it'll be really annoying, yeah. Your sunnies? Our little sunnies. Yeah. That's what you call it. Anything that can be abbreviated will be able to. I love it. Yeah, you could be you'd definitely be Andy, probably to a bunch of people. Andy? With your luck at all.

Andrew: 1:24:15

I've been Drew a few times, but I've never really been an Andy. I'd probably respond. Andy? Yeah.

AJ: 1:24:21

Well you could be A B. A B. There you go. There you go.

Andrew: 1:24:24

What's his name?

AJ: 1:24:25

Burger. Burger.

Andrew: 1:24:26

Burger? Yeah.

AJ: 1:24:27

Burger. Burger? Burger? Yeah.

Andrew: 1:24:30

Berger. Yeah. That that's what I have been abbreviated as more often. Berg's. Berg. I'll take that. True. Bergie. I think that's my preference. Burger. Burgie is like what like weird girls called me in middle school. So is it right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don't know if I can handle that. Burgy.

AJ: 1:24:47

You gotta love it.

Andrew: 1:24:49

You can include that in the podcast for sure.

AJ: 1:24:54

I put blue. Yeah, good, good, good.

Andrew: 1:24:57

Do you really sometimes? But that's fun.

AJ: 1:24:59

I don't know if anyone likes that thought. That's great.