Seeds, Stories & Sovereignty: A Walk Through Mayan Permaculture At Lake Atitlán

Welcome to another very special series of episodes. This time, from my return to an old haunt back at the turn of the century, in beautiful current day Guatemala, Central America. Deep in the heart of Mayan Country and culture.

To have the opportunity to share these with you here, is beyond what I ever imagined possible. I couldn’t be more grateful, including to Dana Scott for so generously translating and speaking the Spanish in English, for me to overdub for you here. A version of all four episodes in the series will go out in both Spanish and English.

First up, a story I’m so glad to be able to share with you - a visit to the Meso-American Permaculture Institute on the shores of the world wonder called Lago de Atitlan (Lake Atitlan). You may have heard my conversation with Maria Inés Cuj and Rony Lec, current and former directors of the Institute, a few years ago in episode 113, when they won a major global award after 20+ years of trailblazing gutsy work. 

This time, we were fortunate to be able to visit in person, and be shown around this centre of ceremony, education and regeneration – a literal cross-cultural lifeline for the community, the lake, and beyond.

Initially, I’d just had the phone recording going to capture our arrival, but it got interesting straight up, with Inés and her colleague Patrik Mucia so warmly welcoming us in their ceremonial ground (after we’d spent untold hours scrambling to catch 2 boats, 2 tuk tuks, and 1 pickup to get there).

After that, Patrik takes us for a walk. This young Mayan man is a great communicator, including about his story - how the Institute prompted his return to Mayan culture and his introduction to permaculture. And while we walk, the gardens sing.

Recorded 15 December 2024.

Title slide: AJ and Patrik (by Olivia Cheng). 

See more photos on the episode web page, and for more behind the scenes, become a supporting listener below. 

Music:

Salta Montes, by Migra (from Artlist).

Regeneration, by Amelia Barden.

The RegenNarration playlist, music chosen by guests.

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome And Series Launch
• 1:20 Arriving At Lake Atitlán
• 2:03 Ceremonial Ground And Mayan Calendar
• 8:45 Culture, Continuity, And Youth
• 9:57 Meeting Patrick And EMAP’s Mission
• 12:45 A Return To Mayan Roots Through Permaculture
• 17:43 Milpa, Calendars, And Collective Design
• 21:14 Soil Health And Worm Composting
• 25:14 Teaching Compost From City To Countryside
• 28:25 Gardens As Ecosystems
• 31:05 Coffee Rust, Chemicals, And Resilience
• 36:30 Redesigning A Farm On Contour
• 41:10 Pandemic Lessons And Diversification
• 44:20 Living Bank Of Medicinals And Solar Drying
• 49:00 Amaranth Processing And Food Sovereignty
• 54:40 Seeds, Maize Diversity, And Storage
• 1:00:20 Natural Materials And Circular Thinking

Transcript

AJ: 0:02

Buenas tardes.

Inés: 0:11

Ay, qué palabra. Me agrada verte.

AJ: 0:24

G'day, Anthony James here for the regeneration, your ad-free, freely available listener-supported podcast, exploring how people are regenerating the systems and stories we live by. Today, the launch of another very special series of episodes. This time, from my return to an old haunt back at the turn of the century, in beautiful current day Guatemala, Central America, deep in the heart of Mayan country and culture. To have the opportunity to share these with you here is beyond what I ever imagined possible. I couldn't be more grateful, including to my Baltimore buddy, who was with me in the latter part of my time in Guate, and in recent episodes 264 and 5 at Chaco Canyon, for so generously translating and speaking the Spanish in English for me to overdub for you here. With great thanks to Dana Scott, a version of all four episodes will go out in both Spanish and English. Choose your lingua then, and let's begin. First up, a story I'm so glad to be sharing with you: a visit to the Mesoamerican Permaculture Institute on the shores of the World Wonder, Lago de Atitlan, Lake Atitlan. You may have heard my conversation with Marie Inés Co and Ronnie Lec, current and former directors of the institute, a few years ago in episode 113, when they won a major global award after 20 plus years of trailblazing gutsy work. This time we were overjoyed to be able to visit in person and be shown around this center of ceremony, education and regeneration. A literal cross-cultural lifeline for the community, the lake, and beyond. Initially, I'd just had the phone recording to capture our arrival, but it got interesting straight up, with Ines and her colleague Patrick Mousia so warmly welcoming us in the ceremonial ground. It was doubly fortunate to see Ines as she'd been ill, so was low in energy, yet came out on this Sunday to meet us and waited for us while we spent untold hours scrambling to catch the two boats, two tuk-tucks, and one pickup to get there. It's easier on weekdays, we later found out. So you'll hear five priceless minutes of our time with Ines in that ceremonial area before Patrick takes us for a walk. This young Mayan man is a great communicator, including about his story, how the institute prompted his return to his Mayan culture, and his introduction to permaculture. And while we walk, the gardens sing.

Patrik: 3:02

Thank you very much. It's beautiful. I'd seen photos, of course, but nothing compares to being here. Oh yes. It's been 20 years since I was here, so I barely remember. You don't remember. Ah, but you can look it up on Google. Yes, yes, of course. Our son Yeshi is very interested in the calendar and the numerology, etc. Yes, yes. These are like the nowales because this is our ceremonial center. This is where we do the ceremonies. We have our altar there. It's a cave that existed when they bought the land. The cave was already here. It's been here for many years. We don't know how long. So that's why this ceremonial area was built here. And we hold ceremonies for groups who want them. Or we also do one at the start of the year and one at the end at the end of the year. Every day has its own energy. According to the Maya calendar, we have 13 energies. And 20 Nawales.

Inés: 4:42

Because the Maya calendar only has 20 days. So each day is a different Nawal.

Patrik: 4:50

Today we are in Nok.

Inés: 4:54

We are here.

Patrik: 4:56

Today we are in this Nahual. Noh means intelligence, wisdom, ideas. They are people who have wonderful ideas who bring many changes. They are also people like all the I can't remember them. But all these people who invent many things were born under No. They are very intelligent people. And today is that day, the day of intelligence. And each person also has a Nawal, an animal. Because each Nawal has an animal associated with the characteristics of the person. And what animal is today? Very beautiful.

Inés: 5:56

And this is our space. We have our Monday meetings to organize things.

Patrik: 6:54

We try to stay very connected to continue this path that our ancestors started a long time ago.

Inés: 7:04

And it's not that we're doing this work in isolation, but that we're trying to transmit this knowledge to the youth, to farmers, to women's groups.

Patrik: 7:16

We're doing a lot of work with these groups to be able to continue the path that our ancestors laid out for us. And that our culture endures into the future. Because I've been to other places where countries where you can see that culture has disappeared. Or just a few people who remain who call themselves indigenous, but no longer have their traditional clothing, their language. They've lost many practices and food traditions. And they've adapted to other cultures.

Inés: 7:54

So yes, for us it's very special to keep our culture alive.

Patrik: 8:09

Okay. It looks like a store, Patrick. It's a seed house.

Patrik: 8:20

Yes. Right now we're organizing things. So it's a bit messy. It doesn't look messy. It's beautiful. If you want, we can start here or in the circle. As you like. We can go to the circle and then come back here. Perfect.

Patrik: 8:45

Bienvenidos a EMAP.

Patrik: 8:47

Welcome to EMAP. I'm Patrick Musia, and I'm part of the EMAP team. My work focuses on education as a technician or facilitator.

Patrik: 9:01

I'm also in charge of the area of biodiversity. And also in the area of communication. I manage the web page, the redesign, and one coworker who is my support. So I'm in charge of a few different areas. I've been at EMAP for 13 years. So I was given the opportunity to be here. Learning because I didn't know much about permaculture or what permaculture really was. A lot of the cultural components or ancestral knowledge I didn't know before. When I got here, I met Ronnie Leck, one of the founders. He gave me the opportunity to learn and to be closer to the other permaculture companion, a lot of knowledge and learning with them day by day. I have really changed how I see life.

Patrik: 10:35

How would you describe the change?

Patrik: 10:38

The change is that I became much more aware of my actions. Every one of my actions generates an impact. They can be positive consequences, or they can have negative consequences for the nature.

Patrik: 10:54

So I try to have as little impact as possible.

Patrik: 10:59

And I try to understand the ways of our grandfathers and grandmothers. For thousands of years. And that has given me another point of view regarding my attitude about what we eat, what I consume. And that's when I began to understand that life is richer. When we think in harmony with a collective objective, not individual interest, but community interest. I understand.

Patrik: 11:35

For my part, in my country, I've had the same sort of change.

Patrik: 12:06

Because we all have knowledge and it's good to share it. So this is the center where we offer our workshops, our courses, and this is the place where we start our tours. Here where we are surrounded by our 20 nahuales, which today our general director Ines has mentioned, that we are in Noch, here. Which means knowledge, the wisdom we all have. And since today is Nok, we try to take advantage of it to the fullest. Bring out those ideas, those thoughts, share them.

Patrik: 12:53

And how good then that we're doing this today. This is the moment for sharing these experiences. Perfect. Thank you, Patrick. Of course.

Patrik: 13:03

And another thing is that we're going to be able to do that. We try to teach children and the producers about the cosmovision. How our grandparents learned by observing nature and created an efficient agricultural and food system, still a way of life.

Patrik: 13:27

All of it is related to nature. And this is interesting because not one of our grandparents had gone to a university or school.

Patrik: 13:42

Maya culture is very interesting. It developed math, astronomy, astrologer. And architecture as well as engineering.

Patrik: 13:54

All of it we learned through observation. How the moon works, how it influences a human being's life, how it influences life in agriculture.

Patrik: 14:07

So we try to teach this knowledge to the youth, to students.

Patrik: 14:36

Today, we are in a full moon.

Patrik: 14:38

Today, well, yesterday and today.

Patrik: 14:47

And how do I work with it?

Patrik: 14:50

That is very important.

Patrik: 14:52

And that's what we have to do to keep sharing so that we don't lose it. Of course. It's so important.

Patrik: 15:00

And for that reason, we have a calendar.

Patrik: 15:05

How does an agricultural calendar work? Especially regarding the topic of maize and the cornfield system or the milpa system, a complete and very interesting technology. From the first ceremony for planting. So we try to still have respect for nature. Ask for permission before working the land, before planting, so the harvest can be good. So now we are in December. Which is the time of the maize harvest.

Patrik: 15:51

In Guatemala, there are different maize varieties, some that take different lengths of time. And also the Mayan culture, and I imagine other cultures as well. We ensure we have food not just for 72 hours, but for one year. What we harvest this year, we will consume next year. Completely. But if we all plant on the same date, then the bird will only take a little from each producer.

Patrik: 17:52

And it doesn't go out of balance. It doesn't impact your crops only. So dates are very important and carry a great deal of meaning. It's interesting. It's working with the animals, not excluding them. Of course.

Patrik: 18:09

When the farmer plants, he doesn't just plant one maize seed. He plants three or four seeds, thinking not only of himself, but of the collective from the start. Absolutely. It's beautiful as well how it's constructed.

Patrik: 18:28

Ah, yes, how it's constructed. It's so complex. Yes. It's a nine-month job. You can see the maize, but a milpa system is pumpkin, beans, herbs, quiletes, picante, whisky, fruit trees. Everything is in its area, and everything serves its own purpose and is harvested at different times. Also, on this side, we've been working on the importance of soil management.

Patrik: 19:09

Before you can grow crops, you have to have good soil to guarantee a good harvest.

Patrik: 19:19

And this is a very practical way to make soil through worms.

Patrik: 19:26

That's what we call them. We give the worms so they can finish processing them.

Patrik: 19:40

And that helps us to guarantee that we take full advantage of this resource. But they've been working right. It smells wonderful. Yes, you can feel it. You can smell the aroma. Now I don't know where they went, but there are some.

Patrik: 20:13

Here's one.

Patrik: 20:15

Uh-huh.

Patrik: 20:18

See, right now we're trying to change that and add some new ones. So they're adapting.

Patrik: 20:28

But the idea is to teach or show different ways of making it work. You can make a simple compost, dry material, green material, water, and a little soil, or you can do this all at home. You don't need two meters of space.

Patrik: 20:52

You can use something smaller with worms. Yes, that's what we do in our house as well. Oh, good.

Patrik: 21:00

So that gives you an idea that you can make better use of the resource. Here's one. And here's another. It's not complicated. It's easier to use and easier to care for.

Patrik: 21:38

So this is one of the ways that we work.

AJ: 21:42

Are there a lot of people here who are using this method?

Patrik: 21:49

We need more education. There's a bit more interest among people in the city.

Patrik: 21:58

Because they say I have this refuse. And I am classifying my trash from the biodegradable to the non-biodegradable. And they say I want to have space to compost the organic trash.

Patrik: 22:12

And they say, I like this. And they can implement this system in an apartment. In the rural areas, it's practiced very seldomly. Yes.

Patrik: 22:31

This practice they have lost. What they still do in the rural areas of San Lucas is that all the organic matter is taken out to the fields.

Patrik: 22:45

So it's more direct to the planting.

Patrik: 22:47

So they don't really need this system.

AJ: 22:57

But on a large scale. But we call it juice.

Patrik: 23:04

Do they say that here? Yes. Well, here we call it elixir. Okay. Uh-huh.

Patrik: 23:12

So you can really use this at any scale. Yes, yes, you can. And that's what's interesting about permaculture. You can use it at a smaller scale or medium, a larger scale in any language. Language is not a barrier. Nor is culture.

Patrik: 23:35

In any climate.

Patrik: 23:39

It's just a question of using more creativity and observing more to see what works. We're going to go over here now. Do you give classes here? Yes. This is also our hall. Well, more like a dining room and a meeting hall.

Patrik: 24:04

When groups come, bigger groups, you've had up to 50 people here.

Patrik: 24:12

From schools, sometimes schools, sometimes groups of young people from universities or farmers.

Patrik: 24:21

This year the largest group was about 50 people.

Patrik: 24:27

And we've also had individual tours, one person, two people or families like yours. Yes, very nice. Of course. And we also share the importance of working for producing our own food.

Patrik: 24:46

Maybe not 100% of our food. But starting with a small percentage.

Patrik: 25:07

Here in our culture, we've lost a lot of our traditional ways, and we've adopted many conventional techniques like monoculture and straight lines.

Patrik: 25:22

This has limited creativity our lot. And we think we need to know more.

Patrik: 25:29

In traditional agriculture, we think less and work more. This affects us because we don't repeat the mistakes we've made in the project.

Patrik: 25:44

In the design or in agriculture. We call these little yellow and orange flowers capuchines, which are edible. We have chiles or chile, lemon tea, mint, and these medicinal plants. We call them beach or wapuru named for their smell. It may look messy, chaotic. But it's not. It has an order.

Patrik: 26:54

There are levels tall plants, medium plants, low plants. Each with a function.

Patrik: 27:01

We also teach the importance of integrating elements like integrates. Water and sun. For example, here we have a small pond with aquatic plants. Very beautiful. And the interesting thing is that when you include water in your garden, the birds come. Bees, pollinators. The birds fertilize the water or the garden with their droppings. And help with biological control.

Patrik: 27:52

And when the birds eat them, so it's more integrated. It becomes an ecosystem. Has there been an insect that caused a problem or one that was difficult to resolve? There are situations.

Patrik: 28:39

Yes, it's a monoculture. In recent years, a disease came that we call the Roya.

Patrik: 28:51

And what it did was to burn the leaves of the coffee plant and then the fruit. It makes you realize that there are some things we need to change. And this has helped a lot. And another challenge we have is with one specific family. Is that they worked with chemicals. At regular intervals, all the steps.

Patrik: 30:06

And the result was that about 40% of their land stopped being productive.

Patrik: 30:11

We went to see the corn, and it was this big, only about 30 to 40 centimeters for corn. That looked more like lemon tea or zakote than milpa. And it was about four months along. The soil just didn't produce anymore. The producer felt frustrated, very sad for his soil.

Patrik: 30:32

And so as IMAP, we saw this reaction.

Patrik: 30:45

With the conventional system, your performance is going to go down, not up.

Patrik: 30:50

And so we asked him if he was interested in a more eco-friendly system.

Patrik: 31:02

And we did think that it was really an option.

Patrik: 31:05

But once he noticed that his soil was no longer working, even with synthetic fertilizer synthetics or chemicals, and then with cow and pig manure. But without a good grasp of what he was doing, it didn't work. So he said, Okay, I'll give you a space and see what you can do. And we said, Great. So the whole team planned and analyzed how we could conserve and then manage the soil and water.

Patrik: 31:46

Then we started to look at the patterns, designs, and looked at the contour of the land.

Patrik: 31:56

There was a part that was sloped. So with another companion, Gregory, we traced the contours. We were able to note when the rains came.

Patrik: 32:14

Then when the rain came, the water stayed where it should in each section. The producer was amazed, and it helped him understand why the design was different. No straight lines, but rather an interesting design. And it became much more attractive to him. Then he said that he had more energy, that he felt happier.

AJ: 32:36

That's so interesting, right? The effect on emotions.

Patrik: 32:41

Not just the land and the harvest, but the emotions, the lifestyle. He reacted very well. And he realized that there were things he was doing incorrectly. That was like this one here. That was larger with different designs. And at the moment the vegetable production went up.

Patrik: 33:13

And he said, now I'm coming to the garden early to clean it up, and I'm spending the rest of the day with my wife.

Patrik: 33:20

So we see how this neighbor's life was changed completely. He told us that his parents taught him to be a conventional farmer.

Patrik: 33:36

It's interesting that it requires that something bad happen for us to change. Exactly. That's how human beings are, right? It's what we have in common. Yes. We need to be taught a lesson.

Patrik: 33:59

To wake up to see that the path we've chosen is not the correct one. We need to go back to the ways that nature takes us.

Patrik: 34:17

We've learned the hard way. This happened during the pandemic as well, right?

Patrik: 34:23

We closed all the entry points to different cities and communities. And in terms of the food, many people in San Lucas were trying to grow their own food in their garden to have something that was right there for them. And it worked.

Patrik: 34:42

We noticed the change and it was working. But as soon as things opened back up, we went back to the same thing. Not just coffee or just avocados, but instead different plants.

Patrik: 35:27

Something is changing.

Patrik: 35:30

Inside people.

Patrik: 35:54

And that has created a positive change. That we need nature.

Patrik: 36:01

We can't live without nature.

Patrik: 36:03

It seems so obvious. Of course. Yes. I see it that way as well. And how beautiful all of this is.

Patrik: 36:13

And here we have a garden that we've reserved for more medicinal plants.

Patrik: 36:18

Okay.

Patrik: 36:21

We try to make it so that EmoP Center is a living bank. There are many plants that people just can't find anymore. Or that they've forgotten about.

Patrik: 36:32

So we try to preserve them so they can be multiplied. And when they are needed, we come here to harvest them.

Patrik: 36:41

We give them so that they can continue to cultivate them. There's a solar dehydrator. And what's it used for?

Patrik: 36:51

The dehydrator is part of demonstrating how to harness the elements.

Patrik: 36:56

In this case, sunlight. At the moment, sunlight is free. So we need to take full advantage of this resource. And what better way to do that than to use a solar dehydrator? We use it here for medicinal plants. We put the plants in here.

Patrik: 37:14

And then later we use them for tea when there are groups of students or visitors. We always offer them coffee.

Patrik: 37:29

And many people prefer the teas.

Patrik: 37:32

And then they drink it knowing that it's fresh. That it's organic.

Patrik: 37:45

We can even use it for fruits.

Patrik: 37:50

Even meat.

Patrik: 38:01

I don't have mangoes all year, for example.

Patrik: 38:04

But now that it's December, it would be nice to eat a mango.

Patrik: 38:08

And of course, you can when it's dehydrated.

Patrik: 38:12

The food lasts longer.

Patrik: 38:15

So you don't have to think about how not to waste your food. So you don't suffer from lack of food. There is plenty of food for all. But the problem is the distribution of food and how we manage the system. Or if I leave it in the fridge for too long, I buy it, I leave it in the fridge, and it spoils. But there are ways to make food last longer. Oh man. And we love it. Mango more than anything.

Patrik: 38:50

Yes, of course. So this is what helps us process all the food we produce. Part of the technology is this.

Patrik: 38:58

We also have the educational side, how to process food, how to make preserves, how to keep food for a long time. This is all part of the workshops. That's part of it, isn't it? What do we do with all that we produce? Even in terms of cooking. Yes, everything we do in the kitchen, how we prepare the food, how we combine flavors, colors, and adapt them to our daily diet. We have been working with amaranth producers during the process of teaching them about amaranth, how to grow it, how to clean it, we also teach how to consume it. Because we don't want our producers to grow amaranth and then export it. Because later, with the money they earn from the distributors, they can then buy processed foods. And the organic amaranth that they produce, where does it go? So the idea is that they start growing amaranth, that they know how to prepare it and to consume it, from flowers to atoll, the traditional warm drink in Guatemala, or make an orchata, which is a cold drink made with amaranth, tortillas made with amaranth leaves, eggs with amaranth leaves, a stew, or rather a soup. Everything with amaranth. And we've come to realize that people can be really creative. We did an activity where we visited families that are growing amaranth to see how they are using it.

Patrik: 40:35

They showed us tortillas, a kind of a biscuit made from amaranth. Amazing.

Patrik: 40:46

What we need is the positive attitude to want to do it. Of course. Shall we continue? Yes, please.

Patrik: 40:57

This is one of the amaranth varieties. Here we know it as tsetzri. It's a wild amarant.

Patrik: 41:10

With black seeds.

Patrik: 41:14

In this type, we only eat the leaves. The seed is too hard.

Patrik: 41:29

We use the orange variety over there.

Patrik: 41:39

You get more from it. You can eat this one, but it would be more like a flower, but harder. And the amaranth that we use can get up to two meters high, very large. Normally with maize, amaranto, free. Amaranth, beans, the accommodation.

Patrik: 42:11

And we have a processing area processamiento.

Patrik: 42:14

Okay.

Patrik: 42:24

We spoke about this with Ronnie and Inez. Food sovereignty is very important. And here they process the amarant seeds. For things like a toll.

Patrik: 42:44

Pancakes, cookies, cakes.

Patrik: 42:46

Delicious.

Patrik: 42:47

Then a cereal con fruta or milk.

Patrik: 42:54

A granola with amaranth cereal and other seeds. We make cookies as well. Like the one you tried. We make the cookies with panella. Do you also grow cacao here? No, cacao is grown more towards the coast, more in the south.

Patrik: 43:26

There's also a version, amaranth, and coffee. So there's all kinds of combinations. These products, especially the atoll, are distributed in hospitals and organizations. Right now, we are working in the west of the country in Quetzaltenango.

Patrik: 43:56

With an organization called 32 Volcanoes. They have a program that follows malnourished children and gives them super atoll.

Patrik: 44:06

The atoll has had huge results. And this motivates Imappoint.

Patrik: 44:13

Because there are children in the western part of the country who drink amaranth atoll every day. It's very important, isn't it?

AJ: 44:42

To see to feel the result of your work in this way.

Patrik: 44:47

Yes.

Patrik: 44:49

That's what we're trying to do.

Patrik: 44:53

Now that we've woven different threads in the fabric of all these different places, begin to feel that we are weaving this fabric together. Yes. It's native to Mesoamerica. And here in San Lucas, no one knew about it until 2016-17.

Patrik: 45:26

They knew the purple one.

Patrik: 45:27

El Tes, the TETS the wild amaranth.

Patrik: 45:33

But not the white seed one. Now in San Lucas, if you say amaranth, people know that it's this seed.

Patrik: 45:42

But only in the past eight years or so.

Patrik: 45:45

Yes, eight years more or less.

Patrik: 45:58

Before? Yes.

Patrik: 46:00

That's why amaranth is part of the Mayan diet. Amaranto.

Patrik: 46:04

Amaranth maize, maize, beans, squash, seeds, herbs, is muy interesting.

Patrik: 46:12

That's why our work is very interesting.

Patrik: 46:18

For sure. Shall we continue?

Patrik: 46:22

Yes.

Patrik: 46:31

Another theme we talked about is medicinal plants. How important it is to consume plants every day.

Patrik: 46:43

What people now call alternative medicine.

Patrik: 46:50

But it's not alternative. It's the original. It's the origin of everything we know in pharmaceuticals. From here, medicine arose. Not only when we're already very sick.

Patrik: 47:12

Every day we can drink a tea, consumer eat a leaf from different plants. They help keep our body strong.

Patrik: 47:23

And that's part of Olivia's work, actually, with Chinese herbs and others. Of course, yes. It's a very extensive world, very interesting. Knowing how to use them, what they're for, but also we're losing a lot of that knowledge, how to use them, what they're for.

Patrik: 47:44

So this is what we're trying to promote. There are some people who recognize them, and they say, wow, I haven't seen this plant for a very long time. And others say, what's it for? They have a plant in the yard, but they don't know how to use it. And that is what we try to teach our visitors, what each plant does. This is orzus and it works for throat infections, for example. I don't know if you've tried this one. It tastes sweet. You can try it. You can eat it. If you drink it hot, it helps you when your tonsils hurt when your throat is inflamed. This is a good medicine.

Patrik: 48:49

One that I use. Before, when I had tonsil problems, I used antibiotics.

Patrik: 48:55

But when I learned this, it worked better.

Patrik: 48:58

And now antibiotics I don't need antibiotics. It's interesting. You don't need it. There can be a problem when we consume too many antibiotics. But of course, we've come to believe that it is normal, but it's not. It affects us all.

Patrik: 49:16

It's not necessary.

Patrik: 49:18

Exactly. Very interesting.

Patrik: 49:22

So we try to help people have a living pharmacy at home.

AJ: 49:26

Very good.

Patrik: 49:33

Here we have our seed house.

Patrik: 49:38

The seed house is a place for everyone to access. So that they can interact, interactuar, bear, conos. See, and learn what seeds look like. Kids today only recognize maize, beans, and squash. Maybe that's it.

Patrik: 49:58

But they probably have not seen what a carrot seed looks like.

Patrik: 50:04

An onion seed, a beet seed, the seed of herbs like chipilin.

Patrik: 50:10

How do we remove the seed? This is the space where we store seeds. And where people can interact with them.

Patrik: 50:30

And here are some for others. For example, these are lettuce seeds.

Patrik: 50:36

Yes, lettuce.

Patrik: 50:38

And this is a beet seed.

Patrik: 50:40

Beets. Really? Yes.

Patrik: 50:43

And after seeing them, some people say, wow, I never realized this is what a seed looks like. This is what we try to do. A seed house where people can have the space to understand how seeds work, how they smell, their shape, all of this. And of course, we can't forget to mention maize. All these varieties of maize are very important to our diet and our culture.

Patrik: 51:11

These are red ones.

Patrik: 51:13

We have white ones, we have red maize. I've never seen red maize. Never.

Patrik: 51:19

This is a red one. A very beautiful red one. I've learned a lot from him. He's older, but he's still planting.

Patrik: 51:36

He has this one and this one. This white one is very special.

Patrik: 51:43

Because it's used to make tamales.

Patrik: 51:48

I don't know if you know tamales.

Patrik: 51:49

I love them.

Patrik: 51:51

These tamales are for the holidays, for example. And now at the end of the year, there will be a lot of parties in Guatemala, and we make tamales for these parties. There are tamales everywhere in Guatemala. And this maize is used because it's soft and larger. It's called Zakpor. It's different from this white one, which is for regular tortillas. But this one is special. The grain is bigger and softer. So you can see that it's different.

Patrik: 52:20

We also have yellow maize, like this. And black maize.

Patrik: 52:26

This one is truly black. Let's see, we still have some here. I haven't seen this before. Look, this is black maize. And it stays like this for a long time, like this?

Patrik: 52:46

Yes, because nature is perfect. It comes with its own packaging. While it's in the husk, it stores longer and is better protected than in any container.

Patrik: 53:02

And here's another one that's a little more purple.

Patrik: 53:13

Yes, a little more purple.

Patrik: 53:16

And there are others that are more blue or green.

Patrik: 53:22

So there's a lot of diversity in the region. And this is what we teach young people who visit EMOP. So they can learn the importance of seeds, which gives us what we need to live. And that nature gives us everything.

Patrik: 53:43

This receptacle is called a tecamote. And an ideal receptacle to store seeds. It's thermodynamic. Something that nowadays, with modern technology, we have thermodynamic receptacles. That you can add hot or cold water and it keeps its temperature. This is the same thing. Yes. This is the same thing.

Patrik: 54:08

You can put cold water in it and it stays cold. Or it exists in nature. What do you call it?

AJ: 54:20

And how does it grow? Does it come from a tree?

Patrik: 54:23

This is a squash from the squash family. A squash. And if you store hot tortillas in it, they stay hot.

Patrik: 54:34

You can cut it here, and then you can put your hot food tortillas and it will stay hot.

Patrik: 54:42

And what is this?

Patrik: 54:45

That is a racket.

Patrik: 54:47

But we use it for killing mosquitoes. Mosquitoes. Which are really fierce right now.

Patrik: 54:54

And another lesson here is that when it's no longer useful, we put it back into the soil and it returns again.

Patrik: 55:05

Many things humans have invented do not return to the soil. And not even our recycling systems are functioning very well.

Patrik: 55:16

No problems. We need to put ourselves in harmony and say that there are a lot of things that are not necessary, and we start avoiding them.

Patrik: 55:30

And that is what we have here. Hey, this is something I can do.

Patrik: 55:58

I can make a seed house. And that is what we do. And there are a lot of people doing this. Yes. There are many people in Guatemala that have created seed houses all over the place.

Patrik: 56:30

All over the place. Seed houses, seed banks, run by families. This is a more centralized, more formal seed house formed by many different producers.

Patrik: 56:44

So this house has just about everything.

Patrik: 56:47

But there are all kinds of communities that have built their own seed houses. Of course, we can always make more seed houses. It's really interesting and really lovely to work with all of this.

AJ: 57:34

I remember IMAP.

Patrik: 57:35

I didn't visit, but I also don't think I really realized that it was the very beginning of IMAP in 2000. And now to learn that 20 or 22 years later that IMAP has won this international award in 2022. And now to see how much it's grown and all the different types of work it's doing. It's just incredible. And now to be here physically.

Patrik: 59:10

All of us can continue to hear it.

AJ: 59:14

That was Patrick Musia at the Mesoamerican Permaculture Institute on the shores of Lago de Atitlán in current day Guatemala, Central America. With thanks to Patrick and Ines for having us stay over at the Institute that night and for the beautiful typical dinner. Enormous thanks also once again to Dana Scott for the translated audio. What an honour to share in this with you, mate, all these years on. And I'm so grateful you've enabled me to share it with everybody else here. I'll also share some photos and maybe even a video too on the website, with more for subscribers as always, with thanks for also making this episode possible. This week, special thanks to Chanel, Abdipronotto, Helen Rodd, Clayton Hares, and the extra generous crew at Bush Technic. Thank you all. All for notching up your third anniversary of support. If you'd like to join us, be part of a great community, get some exclusive stuff, and help keep the show going, please do by just heading to the website or the show notes and following the prompts. The music you're hearing is Regeneration by Amelia Bardin. My name's Anthony James. Thanks for listening to the body.