The People Whisperer: Another Way to Listen, with Jeff Goebel

Many might think the hardest part of community conflict is finding the “right” solution. What if it’s often something deeper: listening well enough that a solution can even appear?

We’re fresh off the Murray River / Dungala here in Robinvale, Victoria, as our first Confluence journey winds up. And a bloke who came up a bit during a transformative week of paddling, firesides and other yarns was Jeff Goebel. 

So while we gently come back to machines, here’s the last 20 minutes or so of my first conversation with Jeff, online, ahead of meeting and witnessing his alchemical facilitation processes in person over in New Mexico. It drifts from the nature of his work, to a pivotal encounter with a glacier, on to how this work is spreading, how the uncanny tends to follow it, and perhaps even how it can help with this and other Rivers.

Welcome to the 10th instalment of Vignettes from the Source, the short form series featuring some of the unforgettable, transformative and often inexplicable moments my guests have shared over the years. Indeed, again, this one hits all three of those marks, and has come up often since the episode was aired.

This was part of the introduction to that episode: ‘Jeff Goebel became a Holistic Management trainer with Allan Savory in the mid-80s. But pretty soon felt it was missing something, as did Allan. Then a series of uncanny events and outstanding successes in Jeff’s life, including a pivotal experience with First Nations, set him on a path of what he calls community consensus work. He is now globally renowned for developing a highly effective program of respectful listening, visioning, and planning that attains 100% consensus - and commitment - of all parties, in all sorts of contexts. And often where human conflict and land degradation are at their worst.’

If you’d like to hear or revisit the conversation in full, head to episode 185 – "Achieving Consensus and Commitment to do the ‘Impossible’".

If this resonates, subscribe, share the episode with someone navigating a hard conflict, and leave us a review with the biggest “impossible” challenge you want to tackle next.

Chapter markers & transcript.

Originally recorded 8 December and released 12 December 2023.

Title image supplied.

Music:

Outro music by Jeremiah Johnson.

Regeneration, by Amelia Barden.

Transcript

Practicing Consensus Without A Rulebook

Jeff 0:00

So we embraced their thinking. They felt appreciated and listened to, and that they mattered and that we were genuine. And it's been remarkable how this thing's growing since that time.

AJ 0:10

Very interesting.

Jeff 0:12

Yeah. Yeah. So it was it was we practiced to practice the behaviors of consensus, not not have formal structure with it. So yeah.

AJ 0:22

Terrific. So you know, you mentioned listening to the land as well. And I yeah, it's funny with language too, isn't it? It can it can pass, it's so ephemeral, but I that really landed with me. And then how you related back to that story of being out in the forest, and that that was Bob's instruction. Go out there. Yeah, yeah. Because then you wonder what shifted in that bloke who was able to see, I see a way we can bridge here. Yeah. That you'd have to say some part of it came from the voice in quotations of the land itself. That's right. So when you talk about, as I totally agree with, when you talk about building a movement now around this, that then will result in the physical manifestation of regeneration, that this movement of how we can be with each other, then I'm thinking we need to have more people able to listen in these ways.

Jeff 1:21

Yes, yes.

AJ 1:22

And we're not there. I wonder what you think about that. How do we cultivate more people who can listen in these ways and and I guess then run processes or navigate contexts like this?

Learning To Listen To Land

Jeff 1:34

Yeah, yeah. What I mean, first of all, the process is pretty simple. And even like I said, sixth graders, second graders, they can do it, whatnot, you know.

AJ 1:45

So um maybe they should be. We should be doing that in schools.

Jeff 1:49

Oh, they they actually love it too. They they appreciate being treated like that. It it they matter, and and and and that would be part of the answer to your um question, whatnot. So what I do, and and the the process is very transferable. So I just did two um workshops in Colorado dealing with water scarcity, which is a state north of us, and um one was on uh stream management plan and resiliency and with in fire, and the other one was um with uh the headwaters of the river I live on, where they have rapidly dropping water table. That's it's so serious that the state has said if you don't fix something within the next five years, we're gonna cut all of agriculture off in this valley, and it's a huge valley. It's like probably 30 miles by 30 miles, it's a big, big area.

AJ 2:49

Yes.

Workshops That Build Local Facilitators

Letting Go Of Control

Jeff 2:49

So both of those, what I did was there's a series of four workshops that um kind of teach a lot of different angles of conflict resolution through consensus building. So issues with change, issues with diversity, issues with uh scarcity, issues with power dynamics, you know, those are the different topics that we were in some other topics, but those are what we work through. And in that process, I have the people lead that process. They they learn how to facilitate, they learn how to record, they learn how to participate, and they solve problems, real problems, using that process, which builds their confidence up about a way to do you know, do things. Um, also in those, we had some local people from the community volunteer to be co-facilitators with me. So I worked on empowering them. This gets back to the ranch in Hawaii, and how do you build the capacity? You know, and part of this too as a facilitator is learning to get let go, you know, and give up control. You know, it's like I'll just let people lead things and and let them do stuff, and and it's and it's remarkable what they do. And it is, it's absolutely remarkable what they do. And uh, so I I think those are some important things is as facilitators or people that you know understand and believe in this process, is not to be in control of it. Is that and and that's the thing is that um that mat that magic, you know, what you do is you create uh this puzzle in their mind about where they are and where they want to be. And then what happens if you don't solve it, like if I don't take control and say, okay, you do this and you do that, if I just walk away just like Bob did at the end of those workshops, and and and it's like Bob, nothing happened, you know. He didn't control it, he just let go of it, and people all of a sudden start doing things, and remarkable things start happening without about anybody really asking about it, and that are in line with the bigger picture of what people want to see. It's absolutely remarkable. So it's about letting go of control because control, I think, is really based, you know, power control is based on fear that if I don't do it, it's gonna get out of control, it's not gonna work. So I have to be in charge of getting it in work, which stifles other people. You know, I'm not empowering them, I'm holding them back, I'm checking, you know, keeping them in check because I don't believe they're gonna take care of it, or they won't do it right. So the thing I do is I just empower them and just let it go. So I think that's another well, well, here's there's three phrases my friend Bob gave me. We had a couple times in life where besides him telling me that conflict is my friend, uh, there's a couple times we just went out for a ride on a motorcycle and sat next to a big river and just talked about how to solve the world's problems. And he said, you know, Jeff, he says there's three things that in his whole life, he says there's three phrases that he would put it all together in. And he says, number one is to let go. So basically let go of fear. But he later changed that to no, it's acknowledge fear, and not necessarily let go of it, because it's really difficult. You know, you we've got uh lower brainstem, so you can't let go of it, but you can acknowledge it and say, you know, I'm afraid of this. So that's number one. Number two, he said, seek richness, so look for the good in the world, look what you're grateful for, and move toward that richness. And then third, he said, trust the process or trust that inner voice or trust the universe, whatever perspective one wants to have, trust that. And he said, those are the three things, and he said, you know, when you practice that, you see things move in an amazing way and whatnot. So that's you know, that has made sense throughout life, yeah, yeah. And I have to show you one other piece here that's interesting. Uh in uh I was losing a little bit of uh hope for the future all about the last couple of years. So I uh yeah, I was just I was feeling, you know, for my ecological background, I was just saying you know, we're losing too much water that's in ice, we're losing like glaciers and uh uh snowpacks, we're losing permafrost, we're losing you know, our water piece on the earth has really, really deteriorated and shifted. I mean, I looked at TV a a year ago here in the United States, and from the Mississippi River all the way, half our country all the way over to California, all the major rivers were like dry, going dry. The Rio Grande, the Grand River here went was dry last summer. So, but I mean from I mean Mississippi.

AJ 8:06

Same here, Jeff. Same here.

Three Phrases For Hard Times

Jeff 8:07

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. And so I decided at uh May a year ago that I needed to go uh say goodbye to the glaciers and basically thank them for what they've given us, you know. And I have four grandchildren, so I you know have a lot of concerns about what what's happening for them. So uh we went up to Alaska to say goodbye to the glaciers, and uh I thought I gotta do better than just say goodbye, I gotta own up to some of this, and uh so I said I'm gonna ask the glaciers for advice, the listening to the earth. So I get there and I get by this amazing glacier, and it was interesting, you know. I mean, this is a little well, this this is the little vulnerable part, but um when I when I first saw the glacier that I was you know coming to, I felt this anger from the glacier toward me, but it wasn't toward me individually, it was toward me representing the human species. And it's like kind of like why could you do it, why would you do this? You know, you had a good thing, you know, why would you screw this up and still keep doing it? But that passed, it it lightened up and is like, okay, Jeff, here's what I'm gonna tell you. One it said to me, let go. So just don't push this anymore, just let go and let it go where it's gonna go. Like so these fence line contrasts and and regenerative being more than just playing on your dirt, you know, but it's it's getting your neighbors, helping their neighbors, but not pushing them, you know, letting go, but expecting it to move. So that was the first thing. And then the second thing that came was to listen differently. The glacier told me to listen differently, like like back at the tribe, you know. It's like Jeff, you gotta learn to listen differently. And it's like so, and yeah, yeah, and so uh, so after we got done on the on that trip, the next week we went down to see my uh youngest grandchildren and and my son and his uh wife, and and I've been reading stories to them over uh internet because Zoom because they uh live a ways uh a ways away. So my grand or my daughter-in-law picked a book out, said this would be a good book for you to read to the grandchildren. I said, Oh, really? You know, so uh she showed it to me, and this was the name of the book, the other way to listen. Oh, and that's what the glacier just told me to do was to listen differently, listen the other way. So it was like, well, I guess I am supposed to do that, and this book is right on with that other way, so really yeah, it's perfect.

AJ 11:00

Noted, noted, yeah. It it reminds me too of when your uncanny connection made to Bob in the first instance as an adult, you know, going into this work. Yes, and and that you did say uh, you know, Judy reported that you had said uncanny seems to follow this. Do you think even now, and even for you, that listening is still the message to to go further with that.

Jeff 11:25

It changes everything, yeah. Fundamental.

Saying Goodbye To Glaciers

AJ 11:29

You know what else, just before we sign off, occurs to me. I was listening to some of the latest as an old sports person, I sort of get intrigued by this domain and how it's shifting on this front. And sure enough, elite sport now has gone a similar way. That elite sports people are going to people who run processes that effectively run the gamut through to, okay, given it's not possible for you to beat such and such a person or to improve such and such a time. Yeah, if it was, what would you do? Yeah, and they are finding similarly that extraordinary unanticipated outcomes that they end up achieving well beyond what they thought of. Yeah, isn't that fascinating coming up in parallel domains?

Doing The Impossible In Mali

Jeff 12:11

Oh yeah, yeah. Just in Africa, Mali, I was working there a few years ago, and um they had they had 87% food insecurity in their villages, and they had seven ethnic groups, ten villages, and they were at many of them were at war with each other. They had had some bad things happen. So one of the workshops was on the managing scarcity. I asked them if there were some things we could do that seemed to be impossible, and I said, How about if we see how we can increase food production for you? And they said, Well, of course, that would be important. And I said, Well, let's fit find a number that so we have something specific to work on. And they and I said, Could you increase food production by five or ten percent? And they said, Oh, we probably could do that, and I go, Well, you probably should do that. You're hungry, your kids are hungry. So I said, Well, what about uh 20% increase? And they said, Well, we probably could do that too. And I go, Well, so I want to know a number that you just cannot imagine being able to do. So I said, Could you increase it 50%? Which I didn't believe they could do either. And they said, Oh, that would be impossible. And so I said, Good, let's use that number. So I said, So I did I do some things in the workshop and uh up prior to that, and then when I get to that uh point I want to work on something, uh one thing I will do is I will get the mental picture in their mind. I will ask, what's the what's the richness in your community and what's the richness in your personal life? And so I get their mind thinking about the good stuff that they've got in their life. And so when it's in that state, then what I with endorphins and serotonin and all that stuff, then I say, okay, we talked about uh 50% increase in food production would be impossible. So give me all the reasons why it's impossible, why you can't do it. And they said, Well, you know, we only have $45 a year per capita income. We have poor rains, we have poor soils, we're even lazy, you know. So those, yeah, they were very honest. And so at that point I said, okay, everything that you've listed is a belief system, like your $45 a year per capita income, or your limited rains or limited soils. I said, Um, even your belief about laziness, and uh I said, as long as you believe it, what will be the outcomes? Nothing will change, you will not ever increase food production. So I said, okay, so I'm gonna ask another question, which is one I asked earlier. Given that it's impossible, because they just proved it to me, if it were possible, what would you do to increase food production by 50%? And of course, it's quiet for a couple minutes because they're thinking, and then all of a sudden, one idea pops out, and actually, when one idea comes out, it is no longer impossible because the human brain is finding the solution, and so anyway, they just keep going and they come up with more ideas and more ideas. Pretty soon they had quite a list of ideas, and again, what I do at that point is I leave. I I don't solve it, I don't say, okay, you do this, you do that. You just you what I've done is I've created the puzzle in the brain to keep working on trying to figure out how to solve this, and so I came back 15 months later because I came back to the US, and then I went back there 15 months later, and they were actually standing on the side of the road waiting for me. They knew I was coming, and they have no idea how long it takes to fly over the Atlantic Ocean, or you know, they're just they're standing there waiting for me, and uh and I'm with the driver, and uh so as soon as I pull up, they run over to the truck and they grab the door and they and they start well, they pull me out of the truck and they took me out in the field, and in 15 months they increased food production not by 50 percent, they increased it by 78 percent in 15 months. Yeah, it's just amazing how they figured out you whatever, you know, it's that magic.

AJ 16:35

Yes, it is, isn't it? And yeah, and uh Judy said that one of them named a child after you as it was something.

Jeff 16:43

Yeah, Jeff, yeah, yeah. That was fun to magnificent.

AJ 16:48

Uh it's in all seriousness, it is beautiful. What an incredible moment and outcome. And yes, as you said, they did it. Yeah. Before we sign off, you've collaborated with Judy since because she's been as inspired as I have by seeing it in you and seeing it with some practitioners here in Australia I've had on the podcast too, in varying but similar ways and and and similarly extraordinary outcomes. And so you've collaborated with Judy on this thing that's just soft launch online, do theimpossible.earth, which I really like. Yeah, yeah. And for obvious reasons. What's your thinking around that?

Building The Do The Impossible Movement

Jeff 17:25

Well, it's it's great. It it's it's amazing how people's lives change with this work. If we created a movement where people where they could experience that and experience it a lot, it's absolutely amazing. So that's what I would like to see, you know. That's my best possible outcomes. We can turn this around. I mean, I've done it lots and lots of times. It's just not the scale that it needs to be at. But um, we can do this thing, so yeah, yeah, it's my hope.

AJ 17:59

Yeah, yep. And I see I see when it proliferates like that now with Judy and the other colleagues that have come around that table. Yeah. And then certainly over here, there are a few of us talking more about it. And I hope this podcast helps. It's it's why we're doing it.

Jeff 18:13

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. And you know, one thing, Anthony, that the land reflects us as humans. What's interesting is that you know, when we're in conflict with the earth, with each other, it's always taken out on a lesser entity. So if we're fighting the environmentalists, if we're rancher, if we're environmentalists and we're fighting the rancher, it's taken out on the land. The land is the one that suffers. That's what was happening up in that watershed and that Judy wrote about. And uh now that land is coming back, and it's it's remarkable. And it didn't take much for that land to come back because all we just did was rearrange a few things, and it's just coming back, and it's changing the rancher's son. He's now changed his career, uh, what he's studying in school, because he sees he's just amazed with what's happening on the landscape.

AJ 19:09

Magnificent. Jeff, to go out. I wonder, is there some music that's gone with you through that journey, or or maybe even something that's you're enjoying at the moment? But but I'm always doubly curious if there was something that accompanied a transformation. So any of these moments for you that were really pivotal.

How Conflict Shows Up On Land

Jeff 19:25

Yeah, been reflecting on that, and all the way along there's been just significant music that just seemed to be the right thing for me. It and I can't say it's any genre or anything like that. It's just, you know, this was the right piece. And I remember not long ago, oh, it was probably 10 years ago now, that's time. But they're you know, they're they're finding that there are mathematical formulas with music, and that they find that uh songs that people love have the same, no matter what, like if it's classical or if it's uh rock or if it's country, there's this mathematical formula that shows up in like best hits and whatnot. So it's interesting because I have songs you know downloaded and whatnot, and they uh they're they're just powerful songs from for my space as a human. So that's my music story. There's just this multitude of music that I think there's like 2,000 songs, and I put it on random, so it it's all kinds of music all the time, but it does uh it's very powerful.

AJ 20:39

Can you pluck one example out?

Jeff 20:41

That wouldn't really be fair, fair enough. Because there's so much good.

AJ 20:48

Yes.

Jeff 20:49

Um well, you know, Bob Dylan and All Along the Watchtower. Yes, very um all night long with Lionel Ritchie, yeah. Um American Woman, by Guess Who, yeah.

Music Memory And A Grateful Close

AJ 21:01

Yeah, well, you're traversing time there, aren't you? Just in those examples. Yeah. So I can imagine the different times in your life, you know, even even before what we really talked in detail about here.

Jeff 21:12

Yeah. I remember in Hawaii, like uh Chris Christofferson, you know, was living there, and he'd go riding his bicycle in the morning in front of the ranch, and we waved to each other. So I just when I listened to a song from him, I think about when I was moving the cattle and uh um the minor birds that would fly. You know, I I trained you know a thousand cows to move to whistle. Then I would take hotel guests out on the on the tour, and at the end of the tour, I'd give them a whistle, and they would move the thousand cows in ten minutes, and they were thrilled with it. That's how hotel occupancy went from fifty to ninety five percent. Was they just were so through thrilled with the thing that it's just like wow. So, anyway, magnificent it it helps me. Bring back those different experiences or whatnot. Here's to it.

AJ 22:03

Speaking of gratitude and the joys. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Jeff, thanks very much, mate. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Yeah. It's just been wonderful speaking with you and all the very best where you go from here.

Jeff 22:15

Yeah, thank you. I'm just gonna let go and let it happen and listen.

AJ 22:19

Me too. I've taken stock of that list. That was the award-winning facilitator, Jeff Goebel. For more on Jeff, the Community Consensus Institute, and the new Do the Impossible set up with Judy Schwartz and Company, see the links in the show notes. Jeff and I talked a bit more after we stopped recording, including about his previous time in Australia around the Murray-Darling Basin, our major river system, the one I referred to in our conversation that's also in trouble. Conscious of the great conflict around that, Jeff said, Oh yeah, that'd be a great one to work on. How's that for some of the spirit we need right now? He did say he's available too, so there's an opportunity.