Canoeing the Murray/Dungala River, with Confluence co-founder Katie Ross

Back in March, Dr Katie Ross and I ran a canoe journey along the Murray/Dungala River, Australia’s longest, most regulated and mythologised river - to, as the bill put it, listen, witness, and create, in deep immersion and deep time. Could that help change the story of a magnificent but sorely ailing River and its communities? By changing our stories? By asking the River even? 

We headed to the confluence of the Murray Darling/Dungala Baaka Rivers, and called the journey Confluence. It filled in days. And come the Equinox, 16 of us climbed aboard and disembarked for a week together.

We’ve had many folk asking about it since. Including many who wanted to be there but couldn’t. So with thanks to you all for your interest, we decided to record our initial debrief for you. There’ll be more to share over time. But if you’re interested in how Confluence came about, was set up, and turned out in its first running, then here’s a starter. 

We also debrief on Katie’s broader tour of Australia, delivering related keynotes. And our chat culminates with some of the most extraordinary aspects of the river journey. 

This was recorded a little after Confluence, by the Yarra/Birrarung River in Melbourne/Naarm - the first to be recognised as a living entity in Australian law. Though you might be surprised to learn that recognition doesn’t include the water. Yet anyway.

So we start with this monumental story of the river we sit by, and the broader movements it’s part of, then trace our path back to Confluence. 

Chapter markers & transcript.

Recorded 17 April 2026.

Title image: Katie with Cynthia Mitchell up front (pic: Anthony James).

See more photos in this article & participant Sally Gillespie’s. 

Ep 218 - Katie at Aldo Leopold’s shack

Ep 97 - Alessandro Pelizzon

Ep 37 - Nora Bateson

Ep 195 – Dominique Hes

Ep 211 - Jeff Goebel

Music:

River, by Onyx Music (from Artlist).

Regeneration, by

Transcript

Awe, Intention, And The River Call

Katie 0:00

For me, a few highlights, there's so many. I'm really trying to corral it in, but but one is just the awe of having dreamed this idea up and working collaboratively to bring it into being and just that invitation and provocation to anyone that if you have this sense that something that you want to do is is the next golden step, or it can be powerful or significant to give yourself the grace and the backing to do it. Because it just every single day on that trip, and so many times each day, I just kept thinking, wow, that we we did it, and this is incredible.

AJ 0:49

G'day, Anthony James here for The RegenNarration, back home now, with more of the stories that are changing the story, enabling the regeneration of life on this planet. Back in March, my friend Dr. Katie Ross and I ran a little experiment. A canoe journey along the Murray Dungala River, Australia's longest, most regulated and mythologised river to, as the bill put it, listen, witness and create in deep immersion and deep time. Could that help change the story of a magnificent but sorely ailing river and its communities? By changing our stories, by asking the river even? We headed to the confluence of the Murray Darling/ Dungala Baaka Rivers and called the journey Confluence. It filled in days, and come to Equinox, 16 of us climbed aboard and disembarked for a week together. We've had many folk asking about it since, including many who wanted to be there but couldn't. So, with thanks to you all for your interest, we decided to record our initial debrief for you. There'll be more to share over time, but if you're interested in how Confluence came about, was set up, and turned out in its first running, then here's a starter. This also gave us a chance to debrief on Katie's broader tour of Australia, as she delivered related keynotes in a range of new spaces, and our chat culminates with one of the most extraordinary and unexpected moments of the river journey. Oh, there's a call out at the end too for your thoughts on which river we might travel next, or if indeed you'd like tips on running your own journey. One last thing, this was recorded a few weeks after confluence by another river, the Yarra/Birrarung in Melbourne/ Naarm, the first river to be recognised as a living entity in Australian law, though you might be surprised to learn that recognition doesn't include the water. Yet, anyway. This story continues to be catalytic and tellingly partly stems back to a pivotal trip on the river when the relevant minister was invited to join the head of the Yarra Riverkeeper Association at the time, Ian Penrose. The side note to that is Ian won a Frank Fisher Award about that time, adjudicated by some of Frank's family and me, and issued by the City of Yarra in honour of my old professor mate. So, we start with this monumental story of the river we sit by and the broader movements it's part of, then trace our path back to Confluence. Alright. Katie.

Katie 3:30

AJ Here we are again, part two.

AJ 3:35

Conscious that this is the second time you've been on the podcast, first time having been a year and a half ago near your place at Aldo Leopold Shack for your birthday. Yes. As it was too. And this time we actually met again on my birthday, but in the West. And we didn't record then, just the way things have gone, but in a way it's good because now we're bookending your journey through various things, keynotes, and obviously the river journey, which we'll talk a bit about here today, Confluence. And on to the last stanza, onto Grounded Festival next week as we record it. This will come out just after that. But let's start from where we are now. We've managed to reconnect and do this bookend chat as it were on a river, just on a different river, on the Yarra and the Birarung, just outside of Melbourne. We sit here in I have to add rare but blazing sunshine and April Melbourne, next to the Abbotsford Convent, in between the convent and the river. And we just went down and said good eye to said river and then came back up here to a sunny, sheltered spot out of the wind a bit. How does it feel to you to be here right now?

The Yarra/Birrarung Recognised As A Living Entity

Katie 4:50

Oh gosh. It feels like it has been such an incredible, action-packed, magic couple of months, and so to just pause and be here with you in this beautiful space surrounded by all these gorgeous birds singing right now, it just feels blissful.

AJ 5:14

It is appropriate that we be by the Bururang Yara for this, given that it has become the first Australi uh the first river in Australian statute, so in a state parliament in this instance, the Victorian Parliament, to be recognised as a living and integrated entity, I think is the wording, so that it's a whole living entity. And that happened in 2017, which also happened to be the same year that the famed case of rights being bestowed to the Wanganui River in New Zealand happened. And also other instances in this ballpark on the Ganga in India, a river in Columbia too. I think there was another one as well. It was a sweeping year. And in a country in Australia that hasn't actually done much on this front, but that this river has that status feels significant. Though I have found out that it doesn't include the water.

Katie 6:16

What do you mean?

AJ 6:18

It includes the land, the bed, and the banks. So it's the land but not the water. The water act still manages the water.

Katie 6:25

And so the land and the banks are considered an entity and a being, but the water is a manageable resource.

AJ 6:33

A manageable resource, bank. So what they're hoping, as I gather, as I've just been catching up on this now, you know, our river learning journey continues down here, that they're hoping, like it's being broached through the processes, so terrific processes that have played this out, to connect the two, right? And the ministers involved and all that sort of stuff. In fact, I think the minister might even be one in the same, but to connect the processes. And that that is potentially happening through another process with First Nations for their rights to water. What's now being talked of as aquanullius, the the other part terranullius that came with colonization, that that's being addressed, that's front and centre, or becoming front and centre now. And it's through that process since treaty was even signed here in Victoria late last year, and that I believe stemmed from some of the processes that had the river be recognized as a living entity. So it's all part of this swelling or this flow, as I understand it, and and what they're hoping next will be through that process that they connect it to the water. But the kicker, as I hear it though, is that through that process, if that happens, the indigenous access to water and so forth, uh, which as we sit here today is pretty much at 0%, like 0.2 or something, uh, rights over water, that it will apply to all rivers in the state. All rivers will become recognized as living entities, creating and whole entities. Yeah.

Katie 8:14

Does that mean then that they are afforded rights similar to the status of personhood, or is it a slight distinction there?

Personhood, Rights of Nature, And New Narratives

AJ 8:25

Yeah, there's a distinction there, and the answer's no to the question. It's not legal personhood. Okay. Listening to one of the key people in the space, Erin O'Donnell, she's actually, she doesn't view that as a lesser, as I hear it. She's saying, sure, one approach is personhood, and you can take that to the courts. But her word was weaponizing. Weaponizing your rights isn't necessarily gonna be the best way, notwithstanding, you know, the importance in some contexts and all that. But she viewed, she said having it this way as a living entity is more an invitation to connect and to relate in a different way. And so what she's seeing is three narratives at play now, the first one being the extractive one, the colonial extractive one, it's a manage manageable resource versus or now with two others stemming from the living entity recognition, which uh as I recall it is essentially uh one of gratitude now. If it's alive and it's giving you life, life of this city, now this huge city, that there's a gratitude piece and a what essentially what can we do for you? How do we reciprocate as living beings? Yes. And and then the third piece is how do we, what's the future look like together? And that landed on me square as like the segue to our journey, and so much of the motivation for our journey, which we chose to do near the Murray-Darling River Confluence and and called it confluence. But it was with that invitation, though.

Katie 10:03

Yes. And also in a similar vein with the Is a River Alive book and Robert McFarlane and posing that question, and this is one of the themes that comes out in that book, um, the role of ensuring rights of nature and personhood or legal standing as a living being. And he explores that through three different river systems, but all of that within this broader question of is a river alive? And what do we mean by alive when we say alive? Do we mean alive in that it's filled with phytoplankton and fish and turtles? Or alive in the sense that there is a conscious sentience?

AJ 10:48

Oh, that chopper got loud. We paused and picked it up here.

Katie 10:54

It literally just came and did a right-hand turn over us.

AJ 10:59

Can you remember the last thing you said?

Katie 11:00

In terms of talking about the impetus for the confluence river trip that we ran together in March and starting on the equinox, the 21st of March, part of that did come from this broader question of how what are our perceptions of river, and how do we create the space to broaden our perceptions of river along the lines of both this legal exploration of what rights could be bestowed to river as a legal personhood or living entity, but as well similar to the questions that Robert McFarlane asks in his book Is a River Alive, exploring what do we mean by alive in terms of the life that a river or river system has.

AJ 11:49

Yeah. It's interesting because I think of I remember asking another guest on this podcast previously, Alessandro Palazzon. Unreal. I think I think it's police. I think. And it's right on us. It is indicative of the white noise that we feel our lost. It's partly why we chose to get on a river too, that we we would experience that, the pumps and the and the locks and the bridges, but we would experience the other two. Just the banks with no machine sounds, and uh yeah, anyway. Okay, we've got that again here at the moment. That's another topic, really. But the legal personal thing, I asked him, is it even a thing to aspire to? Like knowing that we've applied this, and perhaps many listeners don't know, but the classic example of legal person being bestowed on an entity that's not a person, is the corporation. It can sue and of course defend its rights in court and uh yet of course it's not a yeah, it's not a person, it's a it's a social construction that we bestow those rights on. So I said, are we just chasing after bad by trying to make a river, for example, or other parts of nature legal persons as well? Is this the right structure to begin with? He believed it was, and many do, and we've seen some terrific outcomes, but you know, it's still contested though. Like even Monganui is not a it's not it's not fixed here, it's not resolved all the contests, but obviously has changed the game, and not only there, like it's it's still the inspiration for so much that's continued to happen around the world. I think now there's 400 cases of living entity recognition or rights of nature work in some form, and and a hundred of those examples of rivers as we sit here today. Oh, it's going off. It's one of the great stories happening, still largely out of out of view. But it still sits with me. Then I listened to an Aaron O'Donnell say, I'm quite fond of what just recognizing it as being alive does and can mean. Yes. If if we can lean into that reality. Yeah.

Katie 14:09

And I feel like that's what the seven days together as a group really offered was the space to unplug from technology and and find a rhythm to the days outside of kind of the normal day-to-day rhythm of life, and really lean into that question. And of course, it was one of the provocations that we offered to the group or questions to hold while we were on river together. Um, is a river alive? And to really feel into what does that feel like for them, particularly with the five days on the river, where so much of the time was in a canoe with another partner just listening and watching and smelling this kind of sensorial engagement with River, because it's a different understanding of having a logical mental understanding of legal personhood of River versus a felt embodied experience of it.

AJ 15:18

Which is, yeah, which of course was the basis of Robert's book that he he went and did that. It became the story of those things, but also how he then connected to his local water, which was a stream in that case, and that became pivotal of the story too. And that's that's part of what we've seen play out after the journey with people. We can come back to the journey itself a bit more, obviously, but but the people have gone back to their waters. I think it's fair to say in ways that they haven't before. If I mean they may have done it before, but now a bit different. Yeah. And that that's indeed something that is a I guess a bigger invitation beyond those who actually come on these journeys potentially, assuming there are more, is just to go back to the water.

How The Confluence Trip Began

Katie 16:03

Yeah. Do you want to give a brief backstory to how the Confluence River trip came to be and and you know why it was a vision that you were always carrying and holding and how it manifested?

AJ 16:17

Alright, we can start at the start. Okay. We can go from there. So I remember in 2008 spending a week on the Murray, up around the same point actually, and then it coming to me to the idea to broadly do this. At that point, it was just to potentially do it with a few people and paddle the whole thing, a whole Murray. So from the Snowy Mountains or as close as you can get to the source and the 2,000, 2,500 kilometres all the way.

Katie 16:47

Which would take months.

AJ 16:49

I backed it out, I can tell you exactly. It's all in my journal, 29th of August 2008. Um, but how good.

Katie 16:56

Yes, of course.

AJ 16:58

So, but there it sat, and for all sorts of reasons, and uh and you know the podcast of the last 10 years of reasons that people listening to this show know about. Uh so there's all that. Interestingly, I was playing music at the time in Melbourne, had come up from Melbourne for that, and our HQ, if you like, was the Abbotsford Comment where we sit today, and by the error. It's a whole other story. But I was reminded of this very uh origin by reading Snake Talk by Tyson Young Porter and his partner Megan Callaher over summer, having got back from your neck of the woods, Turtle Island, United States, because I remembered it was a snake encounter that triggered it. That I had swum across the river on arrival, high as a kite, because I just love it, I just love it. So swim across the river, and I've clambered up the bank, the eroded banks, and the exposed roots, but I thought I'd sit amongst the roots and almost sat on a massive coiled snake and then gently tiptoed away down the bank and arrived at a massive shed skin. And it was striking me even then as like, wow, okay, fair start to the week. And it was their back-to-back journal entries that then went into the full mapping out of how our two and a half thousand kilometre kayak journey would run. Uh, but in the intervening time, one of the other things that happened was I ran a couple of pilot courses which essentially took a snapshot of the masters I was running. I was in that stage, sort of um, I was doing with my old mate and mentor, Professor Frank Fisher, in systems thinking and practice, crucially. And and when he passed away in 2012, we rebirthed the Understandoscope, something he had originally birthed a decade prior with Michael Looney, famous cartoonist in this neck of the woods, too. And we did that publicly, big thing, Federation Square, it was lovely, but then he got his sickness got really bad and he didn't last much longer. But I went ahead, ran more events, and ran a couple of pilot courses, particularly one over a week that was built from scratch. The other one was with the homeland, in the homelands of the folk, the mob at Uluru, that had been pre-existing, and I was just responsible for it at that time. But this one was from scratch with deliberately like a snapshot of the masters that he has he had run for 30 years and had been so transformative for so many people, so influential, and uh including myself. And but similarly, that sat on the shelf because life took its turns. So then there was a moment that I'm inexplicably drawn to the states. I say inexplicably because we had my wife and I had shelved all international travel, we had thought we've had our atmospheric share. Uh, let's allow some space for others for as long as that can happen anyway. Yeah, nominally, that's enough. Passports had lapped and so forth. But then I started feeling instinct to go to the states, and I was like, I don't know why, Olivia, but I'm feeling this instinct. And she was like, I can't feel it, why would we do that? And that's where it sat for about a year, and then she came back to me and said, I'm feeling this, like maybe you know that thing, maybe we should do it. So, why are you feeling it? At least I've got invitations to podcast guests and stuff. What are you feeling it for? So I don't know. Anyway, sort of it is it the feeling only grew and it came to act quick, so we did, and I sit here today and probably say just as well, it would be a very different journey now. But we acted quick and we were gone on Earth Day 24, 2024. End up with you because we'd met here in an entirely different context through a Nora Bates and Warm Data Lab thing.

Katie 20:35

Back in 2018.

AJ 20:37

Well 19, no, it was early 19 after the podcast journey around Australia kicked that off. And I met you and Nora came on the podcast then, and then I meet you in an entirely different context years later because you've become interim CEO of Soils for Life and you're at the Haggerty farm on a on a day's thing there that I was hosting. We meet again there. Two years, I think it was later, only one, you're back home after a lot of years in Australia. You're back home, the call came, you went, and we happen to be going through. So we looked each other up and came to visit you in Wisconsin. And then we're on your lounge talking about Blue Sky. What's the ultimate thing you would do right now?

Katie 21:20

Yeah. Yep.

AJ 21:22

And you can take it from here.

Katie 21:23

Well, I don't remember how it came up originally, but the river came up, and maybe you were telling your story about the experiences that you had that you just shared, and and for me it it brought up my desire. I've always had to run immersive learning experiences in nature, um, either with Outward Bound or with organizations that have this holding space for people to learn about themselves and learn about each other differently in nature. And I've always wanted to do that on a river, and so. It just led to this super energizing, sparking conversation of all the different ways that we could host river trips and where and with whom. And um, and so we were thinking through well, what would be the first step? Well, no, it wasn't even then. We just thought, all right, let's let's just follow it. If we keep taking steps, it happens, then we'll just keep walking down the path. And was it a couple months later? You got in touch, and you're like, so how are you feeling? And I'm like, let's do this. First step is to find a river guide that we want to partner with. You know what?

AJ 22:31

I think that was about a year later.

unknown 22:32

Okay.

Katie 22:34

I've got such rose-colored glasses in my memories, but yes, a year later.

The Small Water Cycle & Katie's Keynotes

AJ 22:37

Well, because the journey kept going for us, right? We ended up not home for another year. True. But I think a year later, then it was like, I mean, we'd had conversations enough to know the flame was alive. But we hadn't got back till August, September last year, and then it was like, so are we gonna? Because it's like if we're gonna, it'd be it'd be autumn, and that's soon. And there's Christmas in between, so we've got to run. And and that's when you said that. I'm like, oh shit. I think I might have said to you, actually, it's probably too late, isn't it? You said, no, let's go! It's like, oh no, oh yes, oh no. So yeah, we started running, and uh, and then yeah, six months went out with it, went public late October after, yeah. The first step was first step on your part was indeed who the hell runs stuff in that vicinity, figuring it had to be the confluence of the Murray Darling for its meaning, for its geographic, cultural, political, even the contested stuff, right? It's so front and centre in Australia as our longest river and our biggest river basin of a million square kilometres, and biggest food bowlers we call it, and 50 First Nations, you know, etc. etc. So it had to be there. That was sort of the stemming back to the 2008, the snake story. And so I was like, okay, if we're doing it there, you you found I see you found a bloke who runs stuff there. I called him and he says, I don't run overnight stuff, but I know someone who does, and we we found our man instantly. He'd never run a five-nighter with some crazy folk with bigger visions like this, but he uh he did this time, and he's in his element, fair to say, and we couldn't have had a better bloke on the job. So it opens up all sorts of other possibilities for him, bless as well, I think. But yeah, so for us then, you're coming out here already, which is part of why it was gonna all land on this spot. You were confirmed for a keynote to indeed bring you to Western Australia. And I want to touch off on this too because this significant international keynote you were brought across for at the Australian Water Association conference that was being held in Perth. And all on the theme of everything and everyone being connected by water and looking to take a leap into a bit of new terrain with that thinking, and they get you in to help them do it. I'd love to hear from you, I guess, the nub of what you decided to bring and how it went.

Katie 25:04

Well, it really stemmed from a collaboration between Cynthia Mitchell, um, who is my work colleague at UTS for roughly 14 years and myself, and so for the past couple of years we have been working together to synthesize the science that exists about how landscape actually births the small water cycle if landscape is healthy and thriving and full of diversity. That's what contributes to reliable, gentle, consistent rain. And so we were talking about how to share this story and who are the people that can act on this science. And Cynthia is exceptionally well revered in the water sector in Australia, and she suggested that we put a pitch into the Australian Water Association for this topic. And to both of their credits, they said this sounds incredible, very cutting edge, very new for our sector, and you know, we'd love to have it. And so the way that it turned out was I delivered the keynotes, and then Cynthia led a panel with actually quite a few people who are not um uh who are very familiar with the Regeneration podcast, including um Di Haggerty, and and then we also had Cheryl Hedges leading First Nations work in terms of uh decision making around watersheds and the Murray Darling.

AJ 26:39

So she had a keynote at the conference as well, and then was on this panel. Yes, correct. With a couple of others.

Katie 26:44

Yes. Um and then as part of that we had uh a workshop where people for whom this idea resonated were able to come and learn more and talk about how they might action this these kind of principles, these principles of landscape management for water abundance. And it was so fascinating because 20 minutes to tell this incredibly complex story to a group of people for whom it was quite new, I felt it was quite a challenge, but the experience was overwhelmingly positive because I think the beautiful thing about this story is that intuitively it makes sense. It's just that a lot of people haven't had the chance to really learn how nature actually works. And so, for example, in the water sector we tend to think of water security as managing these visible forms of water in large infrastructure projects, for example, in large-scale dams or deselenization plants. But if we expand our perspective of how water actually moves through living systems, so how water is transpired in diverse plants up into the air, and how that water vapor to coalesce into clouds is reliant on bacteria released from plants in that transpiration process, and that allows these cumulus clouds to form closer to where the water was transpired, and then it falls gently back into the soil that is thriving metropolis of bacteria and fungi and worms and insects, and so that water can infiltrate and soak back down. How all of that contributes to a different type but a very valuable form of water security, I think landed exceptionally well for the people at the conference and led to all sorts of fascinating conversations about how the land within their control they can actually work to regenerate and who they can partner with in terms of other land stewards like farmers or grazers to ensure that the whole catchment is generating and harvesting local rainwater supplies.

AJ 29:04

Because this is yeah, this is inclusive of agricultural spaces. So that that too common a view that you know a passerby through farmland would spot of a of a barren field once it's been harvested and you know maybe even burned or whatever, it's just it's just dirt waiting for the next plant. Yes. That that idea that became so normal of farming, it doesn't have to be that way. That what you're describing can be, and and you know, obviously in some cases like Dia Haggerty being present on stage at the West Australian of the Year last year, too, on the back of 30 years of pioneering this sort of work, but can be even in a cropping scenario, not even just a livestock scenario, but can be in a cropping scenario.

Katie 29:50

Yes, exactly. And there's incredible stories, and that's why she was um on the panel, is how their landscape management of cropping and grazing has contributed to regenerating water flows, which means not only are they able to receive the kind of the minimal amounts of rain comparative to other areas of Australia and hold it into their soils, but they're actually seeing the return of waterways that were existing but had been decimated essentially with previous types of landscape management.

AJ 30:26

Yeah, yeah, at best drained, but but probably a bit more bit desertified, and certainly solidified in that context. I mean the wheat belts sadly synonymous with that sort of stuff in in uh WA. But yeah, the possibility. So that landed that landed well, and yes, I was privy to the keynotes, and I'll play them on the podcast too, uh, after this, huh? Um Cheryl's as well, because you were together, you were back to back, and and the combo was powerful and and incredibly well received by the 300 people or so there. And then yeah, the the obviously the the panel and the and the workshop were fruitful too, and revealed so much more good stuff going on too, by the way. This story sort of spann out. And then you did a keynote too, you sort of repeated the thing in a community context with the WA Water Alliance, a newer body, and there was an event down in Fremantle. What did you feel out of that?

Katie 31:18

I think what was beautiful about that event is that it was very community scale, and it was a lot of people who live in the same watershed and who knew a lot of the same people, and so it led to some really interesting conversations about local policy change, and so it was almost as if the message could be received and enacted afterwards in conversations because you had key stakeholders from local government and key stakeholders from state policy and state um key stakeholders from non-profits, and so it felt like people were running with what the message could mean, and that was really satisfying. As well as it being in the most beautiful venue.

AJ 32:03

Yeah. What was it called?

Katie 32:05

Hybrid space in Fremantle?

Arriving At River And Setting Intentions

AJ 32:07

I think that's what it was called, eh? Shout out to Claire Vanderplanko anyway, the the founder of the WA Water Alliance, who can be found on LinkedIn and elsewhere. Okay, so from there we were over east to run Confluence. That's right. I'm remembering now all the things to forget. The last task was to bring together the food, which was the can you were carrying, proved to be adventurous. The adventure started before the adventure. But you did it, you pulled off, the food was amazing. But then we're up on the river at Robinvale, Victoria. And you know, you didn't know, you'd never been to this particular spot, obviously, you didn't know the Murray that well, even though you'd been living in Sydney Canberra mostly in your many years in Australia. So I'm curious as much how it was for you to come to River. And then maybe we can maybe even keep going if you want to into how the the broader journey went for.

Katie 33:07

Oh it was nothing but joy to arrive at Robert Vale Caravan Park and a huge shout out to them and how amazing they were at accommodating all 16 of us. So incredibly generous.

AJ 33:23

Janine, Belinda and Team who generously uh donated to the cause, if you like, our entire stay.

Katie 33:33

Yeah, that was so deeply appreciated. What a gift.

AJ 33:37

And a beautiful spot, and we were perched riverside with all our tents, but initially, of course, just our couple of tents.

Katie 33:45

So it was really nice to arrive there a couple days early and to have some swims in the river and to just acclimatize, I guess, to the lovely space that we're going to be sharing with these incredible participants over the next couple of days. And um and it's interesting that in telling people about this experience, uh a few people have asked, well, was it just a like a nature-based experience? Was it just kind of environmental education? And and um and yes, that was one of the main design features to be out there in River, but it was so much more than that. And so maybe just kind of quickly to um explain the the questions and the themes of questions that people had bringing into the experience. So um one of the questions was around yourself and for each of us, like how can we tap into our own moral compass or our own internal wisdom? Like, how does this space and time on the river afford being able to hear our own inner voice a little bit more strongly? Um, and then there was another question around how can we in these times meaningfully support one another as a group of 16 people who all come from very diverse places and experiences and questions? Like, what does that look like as a community to form and authentically, meaningfully support each other? Um, and then another question around learning from river. So, how is this time on Dangala, the Murray River, an opportunity to be guided by her and by the all of the living entities that comprise her? How can we learn from that inherent wisdom? And then, of course, um, very fitting for yourself in this podcast and and a lot of the people who came along is what stories are emerging or re-emerging in today's times? Like what stories do we want to tell? How do we want to create what is most meaningful or beneficial in these times, recognizing that every conversation we're creating a new cultural story? So those were kind of the four questions that we were all holding coming into that, and and you and I had done quite a dialogic design-based process leading up to the Confluence River trip of what balance do we want to strike between how to curate and facilitate and structure this type of deep immersive learning and how much do we want to create a holding space for what is emergent and synchronous to play a powerful role. And I think what is interesting in the feedback and the surveys that we received from participants so far is that they felt it was the perfect balance. So well done. Yeah. A river. Oh, a thousand percent.

AJ 36:55

That's magic. Yeah, I mean, this is the thing. We knew we knew instantly. I mean, all the more when the group rolled in, it was like, wow, these are seriously accomplished people. We could just sit at their feet for a week and shout out to all of you. Know who you are, and and you'll be many of you'll be writing your own stories and already are about this too, which which we'll link to, but we knew it had to be light touch. And yeah, distinct from the pilots I'd run then. It was and the university space. We were going to well, we were going to the source, no?

Speaker 2 37:27

Yes.

AJ 37:28

What's it like then if we go to the source together and tap it?

Speaker 2 37:32

Yeah.

AJ 37:33

And sure, light touch structure from yeah, sure, a lifetime of experience in in how to then decide where that balance lies and get it broadly on the money. But really, yeah, River did its magic. Yeah. And local guide brought that flank up, and each person then brought their own flank. We, as part of that, just brought our own flank. Yeah. We I I guess we had you know a further responsibility to make sure everyone's okay and fed. Oh that. There's only one fail on that. Notoriously and Brianni.

Katie 38:12

Neither lamb nor biryani.

Community, Strength, And Trip Highlights

AJ 38:15

Nothing more shall be said. But the rest awesome, and yeah, and there, and there it was. And that I believe, I haven't actually looked at the survey responses yet, but you have, and that that was, as we heard, I guess, live a highlight. Was the story sessions, broadly as we pegged it? The only formal structure to the thing that humans created, a space where each person had to themselves to bring whatever they wanted to, or to indeed just be up for being interrogated. Yes. And uh yeah, there'll be more on all that later too. There's plenty more to share, but but in terms of this overview then, what do you come away with? What's the sense?

Katie 38:54

Mmm so many things to to to to share and are like running through my mind, but I suppose of just a few things perhaps from the participants that have really landed with me. Um was saying how after a couple of weeks looking back, the one thing that she that is most front of mind for her that she appreciated most deeply and and kind of misses the most and is incredibly motivated to try to recreate in her urban setting is that sense of community, and how on the river, um, for so many people, canoeing for five days in particular, um let alone at all, was a new experience for them, and camping was a new experience for them, and um and so just those simple but profound moments of arriving at camp and having someone come up and offer to help her set up her tent and showing little tips and tricks, and then for her being able to go and offer that to someone else, this new knowledge that she just gained, and you know, the joint carrying of individual barrels from the canoes up to the campsites, or waking up in the morning and um all doing having a moment of shared movement together through one of the participants who led us in in the Waiapa, which is a kind of series of 14 movements arising from an indigenous individual in Australia who wanted to pay um his respects to these 14 movements and developed a series. And so, anyways, Kara was trained in that, so she led us through that movement, and and Sally was also trained in Qigung. So in the morning, about seven, it got increasingly later as the trip went on, started at seven, migrated to seven thirty or so.

AJ 40:45

And this is a bit dilight savings. That was that was the dawn, yes.

Katie 40:48

That was the dawn movements. But for for that to be starting the day in community and then eating together and and just to have that time to be totally unplugged from technology and so the depths of the conversations that happen throughout the day, she just really felt so nourished and energized from that experience and is now asking these questions upon return. How do I recreate that in my daily life in an urban setting, um, in an academic context? Like how like surely that must be possible. We we are humans, we've evolved out of community. Um and and so that that yeah, it was a really beautiful sentiment to share. And then a few other people, just in in conversations afterwards, have talked about how strong they felt in their body, um, how they likened it to the akin of almost giving birth and and realizing that there is this strength within them that they could rise to the challenge and to have such an embodied experience. And one woman even said, gosh, who was 68, if I would have done this when I was 18, how different my life would have been to realize the strength that I that I carry in my body and and likened it to this great reset of then coming back into her roles in her life with with renewed sense of purpose and and and vigor. So that's maybe some of the like key highlights of reflections from participants, and there's so much more, but but for me, I think a few a few highlights, there's so many. I'm really trying to corral it in, but but one is just the awe of having dreamed this idea up and working collaboratively to bring it into being, and just that invitation and provocation to anyone that if you have this sense that something that you want to do is is the next golden step, or it can be powerful or significant, to give yourself the grace and the backing to do it, because it just every single day on that trip, and so many times each day, I just kept thinking, wow, that we we did it, and this is incredible, and and anyone can do whatever experience they might want to in a similar way, and and so there's probably more about that, and that we'll be sharing the pedagogy or the design and and a bit of support for if you are interested in running your own confluence experience.

AJ 43:34

And call it what you want and whatever, like it'd be different, but we will it's just open source. Yes. This is fully shared, yeah, and may there be different forms of reconnection with our waters everywhere.

Katie 43:47

Yes, yes, exactly.

AJ 43:48

And if this is meaningful to copy in some way, then please call there.

Katie 43:52

Please do. So there's so there's that, but then also when we were on the river. It just seemed to enter a different kind of flow state where the stories that AJ mentioned where two participants would share a story each night, and those just happened to be two stories that were perfectly complementary each night and at the perfect time on the river trip. Um, you know, whether the earliest ones were great for building a sense of cohesion and icebreaking, and the ones towards the end were the really kind of deeply personal stories about some of the incredibly emotional, challenging realities of living and working along the Murray-Darden River, you know, the flow that all of these stories lined up, or that um that we had a even the storm along the river that happened Tuesday, and there's so many stories to tell there. But that was just perfect timing because it brought us together as a group, and you know, when we we made it to the campsite and out of the storm, and we all like whipped into action of helping people set up their tents and so that those who were really cold could jump in and get warm clothes, and people were putting on the tranches to boil water and make tea, and it was and to have that challenging event so early on, I really think meant that we um bonded in a different way, and so and also there was just something to it that felt kind of effortless that the person that you needed to talk to just happened to be walking up the beach, and there wasn't this sense of striving or or corralling or pushing, it was it yeah, flow is the word that keeps coming to mind, and so I think for me leaving the river is that invitation of how to stay in that in that flow, which um yeah, I'm I think I'm I'm achieving. She says with a question mark.

AJ 45:56

But same question for you, like having you know experienced the river trip and and now it's a couple of weeks looking back, like yeah, what's what's live for you or what well speaking of yeah, I mean just the you said it or I mean when you hear yeah, seriously accomplished people tell you that this is one of the greatest experiences of their lives, that's yeah, I mean it highlights that it it feels just a just partly what what we did, and then the rest was the thing we're joining, just like everybody else, and and that it had that effect. But that the part we did was to you know make it a structure that people actually turn up to and you'd be fed and whatever and have boats to sit in. Uh that is yeah, fills me with awe and humility as well. I think of some of the other reflections from participants. I think of uh Goodow, Michael Gooden, brilliant regenerative farmer in the Riverina, so in the Murray-Darling Basin, who came along because he's listened to the podcast for years and wanted me to listen to him for a change. That was his declared motivation. But he also brought bloody food with him and cooked it when we were off river, anyway. The extraordinary supply of regenerative meat that he brought as well. The contributions were many and varied throughout and around Noah, and they continue to be as it's as it's uh as it's continued on the signal group we've set up and and elsewhere. So that that's front and centre. The storm, amazing, and for me personally, I it's certainly so. We are just for a bit of flesh on the bones of people, out of nowhere, unforecast, canoes spinning, nearly flipping, nearly, nearly, not Tom can still say he hasn't had a capsize just, but it was intense, horizontal, hard, cold rain on a hot day, and we you're just holding on, yeah, holding on. But what invigoration and and all the other effects you've already described. But the invigoration points, and I was with Jill, another Regini farmer in in the basin as well, Jill Sandbrook, and she shared the invigoration. So once I knew we weren't gonna flip and drown, uh, it was happiness. It was extraordinary. I mean, bless it didn't get worse. Um, always had my eye out for that, but uh it felt more like I was drawing on ocean experience to be honest, surf experience than than river experience, uh, and it was helpful.

Katie 48:29

Reminder of who's who is in control.

Asking The River And Writing Back

AJ 48:31

Yeah, there were waves, yeah. And uh you just had to keep keep a certain angle and and not fight it. So that that was pivotal for me at a deep level too. I mean, this is a whole other story, and and one of the things that we'll get told later, but it's the being alive bit, the the inviting in to be there at all together, and then to be brought alive by would be challenge, not something you set out to be caught in, and yet be brought alive by it, and together by it, and deepened by it, to put yourself in those conditions as a group, everybody to do that, and then and to feel this overarching sense of being moved by the river as you have described also. So that invitation's not just ours, and that is indeed I might as well say it. We one of the points of inspiration that we offered to the group was what came out of Robert McFarlane's book Is a River Alive, which was what he was offered at the end of that book with a with a First Nations elder in modern-day Canada. She said, You get one question to ask of the river, and he was what better make it count, you know. And sort of the end passages to his book go at that for him. I felt that, not everybody felt that play out, but a few did on our journey. I was one of them, and it played out after that storm. And it the question was uh almost the uh the no-brainer, what can we do for you? What else are you gonna offer a living being who you're um you know, being welcomed into their house? What can I bring? And the answer was invite people to come alive with me. It seemed so obvious, and like just telling myself what I want to hear that I actually sat on it for days because I honestly I I felt like I was feeling deeper things, but I wasn't the words weren't coming to the feelings. And I was like, oh that's a bit obvious. So I didn't tell anyone for days. It was at the end of the journey when I shared it, when we were all sharing, and I shared it, that that had it actually come to me early because there it only got clearer and more resonant. So there it is, whether they end up do um being more in that sense or not, we still don't know, we haven't decided, but I don't I mean I I hear you when you say it seems so obvious, but on the other hand it doesn't because that's not what people are doing.

Katie 51:09

And and and even just the way that the the language is framed as as as equals, you know, there's there's actually something really quite profound in that.

Speaker 2 51:22

Yeah.

AJ 51:23

Reminds me of what another participant, Dominique Hess, another legend in the regeneration in um she's been on the podcast about the extraordinary regeneration of an old quarry in in a Melbourne, and she's written a book about it since, in fact. She ran her story session early, which was a more workshoppy thing, though definitely had her, despite her proper intent, her feelings ended up surfacing in it and were strong and beautiful as we headed out in that instance. But she ran an exercise where we were to part of it was to listen to River and write what we were hearing, and she she mused that amongst what was shared, none of it was in first person, as in river first person. And um, but that's that's what I had got in my journal, and it was obviously what I heard then from the river and in that moment too.

Katie 52:17

Yeah, it was it was really lovely the way she set it up. So to go back to an experience of when you arrived and maybe have gone swimming into the Murray River, and and what did and invited people to go back to that embodiment of it? What did it feel like, um, taste like, um, sound like to be swimming in river, and then to spend five minutes writing about that perspective, your own embodied experience. And then after that, to spend five minutes writing from the perspective of river, and as you were swimming through river, what was river feeling, thinking, experiencing, and and to write from that perspective. And so it was interesting. I did um similarly write about it in in that kind of first person of river, and you know, to go back to your point of are we just writing what we think we want to write? But River was like, you feel amazing. I'm so glad that.

AJ 53:17

That's what I should have written. Didn't tell me that. God damn!

Katie 53:22

I think I had it even. I don't know if it's appropriate to read now, but do what you want. Could be awful. Oh man. Should I read both, or is that a bit indulgent?

AJ 53:37

Oh, you can read it, and even if we don't put it in the cart, you've got a recording of it.

Katie 53:42

Okay, okay.

AJ 53:42

It can be an extra even.

Katie 53:44

Okay, yeah. Alright, perfect. So when Dominique invited us to write for five minutes about our experience swimming in the river, I wrote, Yesterday I went for a swim in Dungala. It was delicious. It was a reset from a very hectic morning of making potato salad in a very unusual way. A Katie way. The water embraces me just the same. She cools me, covers me, washes me, engulfs me, regardless of how we made the potato salad. Regardless of who likes the flavor, regardless of whether there is too much garlic. She is home for so many creatures. She gives us her all and yet she acquiesces. If this is how I must travel now, and the silt that I must carry, I will. I know you cannot see my depths, she says, but I can feel, but I can feel you there while I'm holding and carrying you, while I move at this pace. So it was interesting, even in the first five minutes, I kind of transitioned to river. And then in the second invitation, um, Dominique invited us to write from River's perspective of how it felt for us to swim in it. And I wrote, You are always welcome to enter my water, dear sister. I have known you since birth, since before birth. I have known your leg kicks, your tiny hands, the beat of your heart, the swirls of your salty blood around your tiny little body. I have known you since your days at Wazecha, the lake I grew up near. I surrounded you during your time on the island, comforting you from afar, during nights of challenge and heartache, and that you are now me in the ocean. You are always drawn to the ocean and have been pulled here to get to know me and my ways and my power. My power is your power. My strength and ability for life is your strength and ability for life. And here we meet in the Murray of the Dangala. I want you to be able to see without striving, all is here, all will be revealed in due time and when you are ready. Your skin is delicious on my tongue. Your body brings a vibration that is felt through my waters and through all the life in my waters. We don't need you, but we love to be embraced by and embrace you. Can I review the podcast?

Custodianship, Elders, And Regeneration Work

AJ 56:23

Oh, that's that is freaking that is amazing, Katie. Alright, thank you for sharing. Thank you so much for sharing that. Because as I hear it back, like not knowing it at the time, it really has that sense of forebear of the journey that came, that did come. Wow. So you know the other bit that really, as we sort of move to wind up, probably this iteration, the other bit was uh at least today, was meeting the three Aboriginal blokes halfway. And uh this came about because Tom's bestie, his old man, is Darren Brown, who's Aboriginal bloke who does a wow, we were just clued up, does a lot of brilliant work out on country there. Because that's what Tom and I, on behalf of you two were talking about early days, like that this part's central, you know. So what does it mean for you? And who you you know, who do you connect with on the country? Oh my best mate started Aaron. So he's not around at the moment, he's I think Gold Coast is where Tom said he is now, and um, but his old man came down. But he old man brought uh two other blokes down, Damien Jackson and Jason Bowden. Jack O, JB, and Brownie. And we met on uh Midden Riverside one afternoon, 18,000 years old, I think that one was. Scar Tree's nearby. And is if that wasn't powerful enough, their generosity with the stories and what was revealed in the rest that they do. This I mean I'm still blown away by it to be honest. Um, this extraordinary work that only they do. They're the only blokes in the state that travel the entire state to re-bury elders whose remains have become visible with erosion. Like Mungo, like the Mungo story, which can wait for another podcast in detail, because that's been a long time coming too. But you mentioned Arnie Patsy before. So she, her family, and shout out to Dwayne Mallard, who was involved in some of the ceremonial stuff around this, too, at the time, who connected us with Arnie Patsy, a bloke from Mob Up Around Canabamway and WA, and Claire's partner from the WA Water Alliance. So we get connected through Mungo, through the intent to go to Mungo after Confluence, which we did do, but yeah, a whole other story. But this particular aspect of the thread plays out like Mungo in a way where overgrazing and colonial destruction and draining of it, I mean it was an ancient lake, but it still had more moisture in it than it does now. And these now sand dunes revealed, or depending where you put the agency, um, as some of Patsy's family certainly put it, they the elders revealed themselves to colonists to bring a message what have you done to the land and its people. The interpretation's being put forward, which I hear loud and clear too. But this crew, Jacko, JB, and Brownie, go around all over Victoria in instances like this, re-bury, so work with the particular custodians, tribes to find the best way, appropriate way, ceremony, it's everything, to rebury, and then to bring the earth back from where it's blown, mat it and replanted and regenerated and with success, like this is happening well. This is just one of the most extraordinary stories I've ever heard. And then you come in with I think it was you, when we were talking about it later, and you know, talking about where the agency lies, like came in to extend that narrative of the elders have come back to say, What have you done to the land and its people? And through their reappearance, ceremony is rekindled and land is regenerated.

Speaker 2 1:00:35

Yeah, wow, yeah.

AJ 1:00:38

So that was obviously not just for me, but just a highlight moment and another catalytic moment, I think, for a lot of our feeling and sensing and observing and recognizing it in the in the land and water there. And um, and that was just halfway, like so much was still to come.

Katie 1:00:58

And what was beautiful about the timing of meeting um with them on the Wednesday, and then the Wednesday afternoon when we arrived at camp, that was when another one of the participants ran a writing experience, and as part of that experience, we did a shared poem where everybody would contribute a line when they felt so called, and so much of that shared poem was inspired by that conversation with um that we had earlier with Darren and everyone.

Basin Decisions And Choosing The Next River

AJ 1:01:31

True, that's true, and it was certainly true for me. Yeah. So it might be worth just quickly saying too that the Murray Darling Basin Authority is currently receiving public submissions in its decadal review. So this the plan that stems from this review will be for the next decade. So it's significant, and and that deadline will have passed by the time this goes out, but we're we're certainly putting in our 10 cents worth, and it just happened to land. We hadn't known that at the time. Uh but that the plan will still be is still to be revealed, of course, after that, and and obviously, yeah, conversations with your MPs and so forth is still entirely relevant, and with the authority for that matter, I will I wouldn't hold back. And indeed, there's there's visions of of the group to to do more on that front. Indeed, uh Mark went straight into it, didn't he? With some community forums he stumbled on on the way home and uh and got in and wrote up a bit. But he's got visions, particularly of the uh Jeff Goebel-inspired Consensus Institute stuff that's appeared on the podcast too, where you bring people together from all quarters in sometimes the worst of conflictual situations and can come out with positive outcomes, even outstanding outcomes. So we'll link all this, we'll link all these bits and pieces, and then yeah, there'll be more stories to share. So does it happen again?

Katie 1:02:50

For sure.

AJ 1:02:52

Do we know where?

Katie 1:02:53

Well, well, listener, let us know.

AJ 1:02:57

There we go.

unknown 1:02:58

There we go.

Katie 1:02:58

We currently have on the running in my one of my that's close to my heart, um, Wisconsin River, but um also the river near you. Um the Swan Derby. Yes, and perhaps the river that runs through Kachana Station.

AJ 1:03:14

The Chamberlain. And well, the Kachana Station tributaries go into the Chamberlain.

Katie 1:03:20

Yes. And maybe the Colorado River, maybe the Klamath River.

AJ 1:03:25

In the States? Yes. Maybe the Matawara. As fracking has been recommended by the EPA. The protection authority. Well anyway, if you're listening from those rivers, we're thinking of you, but nothing's decided. We're we're still swimming in this one. That'll come later too, but don't hold back. Actually, in fact, I've got a link on uh every show now to be able to send voicemails in and or and or texts. So but the click of a button that can be done. So the other thing that's next, of course, by the time this goes out, it'll be done. But is grounded, you're doing the keynote once again at Grounded Festival in the Otways next week as we sit here or in a few days. Yes, and uh I'll be there too. I'll be in a different tent, obviously doing my thing while you're in that tent. I'll be thinking of you and then you're out, then you're back home, and I'm back home, and we will next connect online. But Katie, I'm I mean, to do this with you, unbelievable, and to get this little moment with you before the hubbub of a festival while you're still in the country, Magic 2.

Katie 1:04:26

Oh, thank you so much, AJ. Yeah, thank you so much for bringing this into being and all the time in WA with you and Livia and Yeshi and the dolphins.

AJ 1:04:36

And the dolphins, a whole other story. She's not kidding, dolphins passed right by.

Katie 1:04:40

So thank you for everything that you do as well. It's so deeply appreciated.

AJ 1:04:46

That was Dr. Katie Ross, who writes on Substack at Below + Above, written below plus above. Katie's masterful keynote and the one by Sheryl Hedges will go out next. They were both exceptional stories and together so compelling. And I should have asked about music, shouldn't I? Well I asked later. Katie's choice of song, River, by Leon Bridges, and mine, How Can I Go Past River by Joni Mitchell? Thanks to the whole group who joined us on The River, there'll be more stories from us and them soon. And from Grounded Festival too. And incidentally, from what I can tell, the first Rights of Nature legislation introduced in any Australian Parliament was here in WA by my friend Diane Evers in late 2019. And there has been a similar effort for the Murray Darling by Mark Pearson in the New South Wales Legislative Council, proposing the Murray Darling River System Rights of Nature Bill in 2021. Neither progressed, but they're there, as foundation stones. Thanks so much once again to you generous supporting listeners for making this episode possible. Including Katie Ross, a paid subscriber for over three years now, alongside Alice Howard- Vyse and Dodie Henderson. Thanks so much, each of you. And if you too value what you hear and you're in a position to support the podcast, please do by just following the links in the show notes. Thank you. The music you're hearing is Regeneration by Amelia Barden, and at the top was River by Onyx Music. My name's Anthony James. Thanks for listening.

Katie 1:07:11

And did you hear the magpie just said one two one two one two?