Meeting The River: A New Award-Winning Film, with Mara Tasker

Mara Tasker is the director of the new award-winning documentary The River. It follows the people living inside the Colorado River Basin, from farmers and ranchers to suburban families, tribal communities, and the seven state negotiators trying to rewrite the rules of a river that no longer matches the paperwork. What starts as a personal admission of “I didn’t really know the river I depended on” becomes a map for charting how we might be able to breathe life back into the Colorado, and really, rivers everywhere.  

Mara’s story, too, is worth the telling – with no straight lines, from rabble rousing school girl, to gutsy cold calling young creative, with a passion for engaging with all kinds of people, and a river running through it all. Plenty of uncanny laughs run through this conversation too.

I was introduced to Mara by Melissa Grumhaus, who was an Executive Producer on the incredible documentary film Bring Them Home, about the Blackfeet Nation's effort to restore wild buffalo herds. You might remember her from episode 278 in Denver last year. And this time, she’s part of the production team alongside Aussie company Songbird Studios. I noted recent popular podcast guest, Pete McBride, was also in the credits. So it was clear how good and meaningful this film was going to be. 

If you value what you hear, follow the podcast, subscribe if you can, and of course head to the film’s website. Please share this podcast too.

Featuring music from the film’s soundtrack: The Story of a River, and Eric’s Grasses, by Mark Crawford.

Chapter markers & transcript.

Recorded 26 June 2026.

Host a community screening of The River.

And a community screening of Bring Them Home.

You can hear the podcasts with Liz Carlisle for ep309 (with her beautiful music), Pete McBride for ep305 (with his live mandolin), Jeff Goebel for, most recently on-location in New Mexico, ep211, and Judith Schwartz for ep175, all among my very favourites. 

Transcript

Opening And Why This Film Matters

Mara 0:00

The first stuff that I started to kind of catch on to was like a lot of animosity towards agriculture. And so I was like, well, we got to talk to some farmers and ranchers. I want to hear what they have to say about this. And then they'd kind of point their fingers at the cities and be like, well, why are they growing unchecked? Why like they're such jerks? Blah, blah, blah. And so then I was like, well, we gotta talk to some people in the cities. And it just kept like the finger pointing just kept taking us like in a circle. And so I was like, okay. So then it's bigger than each of these individuals. Like we're if if we're starting to get circular in motion, my personal philosophy, then we have to go up a level because then it must be systemic.

AJ 0:37

G'day, Anthony James here for The RegenNarration, featuring the stories that are changing the story, enabling the regeneration of rivers, forming the heart of life on this planet. And what a story this is. Mara Tasker is the director of the new feature documentary film, The River. It premiered at the Boulder International Film Festival, selling out all screenings and winning the festival's impact award. You're hearing some of the soundtrack now, by the way, a piece called The Story of a River. The story of this film is billed as an urgent and intimate look at the Colorado River crisis at an unprecedented time when legal renegotiations will determine the future for millions of people and decide the likelihood of the river's own survival. And by extension I'd argue, rivers everywhere. Mara's story too is worth the telling, with no straight lines from rubble-rousing schoolgirl to gutsy cold-calling young creative with a passion for engaging with all kinds of people and a river running through it all. I was introduced to Mara by Melissa Grumhaus, who was an executive producer on the incredible documentary film Bring Them Home, about the Blackfeet Nation's effort to restore wild buffalo herds. You might remember her from episode 278 in Denver last year. And this time she's part of the production team, alongside an Aussie company, Songbird Studios. I noted recent popular podcast guest Pete McBride was also in the credits. So it was clear how good and meaningful this film was gonna be. And Mara is a delight. Somehow

Meet Mara Tasker And The River

AJ 2:18

maintaining professional decorum while hiding from her two-year-old.

Mara 2:26

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

AJ 2:27

I'm really looking forward. As I did to watch the film, I'm really looking forward to talking about it. Before we get into the film, where are you and why?

Mara 2:37

Physically speaking?

AJ 2:38

Physically speaking, yeah. Is this home?

Mara 2:42

This is such a great way to start this conversation. I'm hiding in my basement. Uh in my I have a two-year-old upstairs, and he's in a phase where he only wants me to do bedtime. And it is bedtime right now. So I am hiding in the basement, and I am. You're the my laptop is sitting on top of like one of his jungle gym parts right now. So uh I am I'm in a two-year-old's like rumpus room, basically.

AJ 3:07

That is so good. That is so good. That tells us so much. So so home then, where is it situated? And where when you're not in the basement, what's outside?

Mara 3:20

Never been asked that question before. Um when not in the basement, I live in very cutthroat. I um I live in hygiene, Colorado. Uh so it's kind of in the plains just outside of Boulder. And uh let's see, we're on like a five-acre homestead. My husband and I have a couple horses and chickens and dogs and cats, and uh it's a little bit of a yeah, homestead zoo.

AJ 3:51

And you were in LA, right? I was. So when did you leave? When did you come back? Because you you grew up in the mountains too?

Mara 3:59

I did. Well, I grew up in Colorado. I grew up on the front range, so I grew up in the suburbs in Colorado, just outside of Denver. Um, and then

Basement Recording And Homestead Life

Mara 4:06

uh I was in LA for like 10 years, straight out of college. And then about my husband and I both lived out there for like a decade. We met out there. He is also from here, so it was sort of just a happy uh component of our getting to know each other that we had um upbringings that were so close to one another. And then um we were already missing the winters, the mountains, nature in general before COVID hit. And then when COVID hit and we were locked down and we were in LA, and we were so close, we were so close to our neighbors' apartments and houses that we could hear them having arguments throughout uh the lockdowns. We were just like, what if we didn't live in the middle of the city anymore? And so we kind of fast tracked something that we were already thinking of. So we moved back here about almost four years ago.

AJ 4:57

Okay. And how does it feel?

Mara 5:00

Uh it feels like home. I mean, it's wonderful. It's it's uh we live in a it's kind of a neighborhood, but it's it's quite rural. Um, and we there's just a lot of farms around here and a lot of open space. And uh my wild two-year-old son is having a pretty feral childhood so far, which was my hope for him. So it's pretty wonderful.

AJ 5:24

Yeah, that's beautiful. So your connection to the Colorado River then goes way back. It's sort of almost uh embedded in you, I I imagine.

Mara 5:34

Oh, that's such a good question. I so it has been the backbone of the places that I've lived for most of my life. But and I think that this actually is important to why the film turned out the way that it did. I wasn't really aware of that. And I wasn't, I certainly wasn't paying attention to it. Like I didn't grow up with like a huge reverence for the Colorado River. I loved the natural world, I loved nature, my parents, we were always outside and always uh heading into the mountains at every chance we could. Um, and even in LA, we would leave the city as much as we could to go to the desert and to go to other areas. Um, but it wasn't until moving back to Colorado uh that what was going on with the Colorado River became more friend center. And then in the process of researching this project, um, and in talking to people who weren't aware of their relationship to the Colorado River, I that's where I saw myself and was just like, oh my God, yeah, it's just been this um sort of humble humming machine in the background uh for the entirety of my life. Um and I wasn't aware of it. And so that was a part of I think the inquiry into it was just like, well, okay, so let's just start there. Like, what what does it mean to have a relationship to this

Growing Up Near A River Unnoticed

Mara 7:05

uh entity, really, like to this watershed. Um and so it was a really kind of honest experience of realizing how much I didn't know about it, and then and then starting there. And then I think that also was helpful in the process because I would talk to people in various cities throughout the seven basin states. Um, I would people of all kinds of backgrounds, and they would just be like, I shamefully don't know much about the Colorado River, and I was like, no shame. Because we're starting, we're s we're trying to start at a place that's accessible and approachable, so no shame. And so I think it really helped in those conversations um to have basically been in that position too.

AJ 7:48

That is fascinating that you could, in a completely uncontrived way then, approach them to inquire. Because that's part of the magic of the film, I think. And I and I'd love to talk more about that, in fact. But before we leave behind your formative times, how did your family come to be in that area? What's the broader ancestry? And can you even map yourself onto any ancestors? Like are the influences or or shades of who you are visible?

Mara 8:19

Oh gosh, what a beautiful question. Okay, so on my so my dad's side is Scotch-Irish, so they came to the United States many, many generations back. So my dad is like an Ohio Midwest boy, tried and true, grew up in the like steeped in Midwest culture. Um my mom is from Italy. She came to the United States as a teenager with her parents. And so uh and so her parents were farmers in Italy. And they, Italy's economy, Italy really was was decimated during World War II. The town that she grew up in, that my grandparents lived in, was uh largely leveled during World War II and different bombing raids. And so my grandparents, as farmers, already didn't come from a lot of uh wealth and resources, but they knew how to work land and they knew how to survive on that land because of their sort of intimacy with it. And so they survived the war, and then um Italy just it wasn't, it couldn't recover economically. And so a few years, a number of years after the war, my mom was, let's see, she was, I'm sorry, she came over when she was 13. Uh, when she was around eight or nine, my grandfather came to the United States for a job in construction uh and ended up in Akron, Ohio, which is where my dad's family was. And um so he worked in construction for a number of years, sent money back, then my grandmother, mom, and uncle came to the United States. So very like kind of really um not extraordinary immigration story. Uh he came here for work, made money, sent it home. And so everybody ended up in Ohio. And then my parents met in uh at Akron University. Um and my dad always had aspirations of traveling well beyond the Midwest. Um, and he's just a traveler at heart. And my mom, coming from Italy and coming from this just beautiful farmland uh in the rolling hills in central Italy. I mean, like really this the stuff that you see in the movies is where she came from. And so coming to Akron, Ohio was pretty devastating change. Um, and so she was keen to go somewhere with more sunshine. Um and uh so sort of I'm you know skipping a few steps here, but her brother had come out to Colorado. He started to settle out here, my parents came out to visit. Um, and then at one point they lived in Denver, moved back to Ohio, had me move back to Colorado, and then we really we settled into Colorado. And uh there's just they're really gosh, how can I say this kind of simply? Both of my parents have a serious regard for the natural world. They're both really sensitive people and really gentle people. Um, and this was like before it was cool to be like anti-plastic and stuff like that, you know. I was like, they're this, they're this other vintage. Where they just grew up conserving because they were used to not having very much. And so that extended into our upbringing. Um, and so we just we traveled a lot, we lived fairly humbly and we were in nature a lot. And then uh with my grandparents, my Italian grandparents were very present in my life, like well until I was in college, like we were really close. And so their presence, too. I think that's also why for me, there was from the outset of this project, there was like, there's no question that the river wasn't alive. There's no question to me, even of the things I'm not aware of in the natural world, that they're alive. Because how can they not be? If they can generate life without instruction from us, how how there's intelligence in that? And so I think through particularly through those grandparents, that set of grandparents and their sensitivity to nature and to farming. Like as an example, my grandfather, when he was still when my grandparents were still in Ohio, my grandfather had this small backyard, and this is like in the suburbs of Ohio. There's nothing sort of fancy about this place. He managed to convert his small block of yard into like a blossoming garden. And he had grapevines growing over the garage, and he had fig trees growing that we would help him pick, and he they they continued to be farmers, they were just not on a farm. And so I think particularly through him, it was just like there, it's like there's no question, the world is alive. All of these things are alive, and if we can speak the way that they speak, they blossom, and then if we don't, they don't.

AJ 13:16

Yeah. Yeah. In so many ways is that fascinating, Mara. I think. I mean, funnily enough, funnily enough, I've just been absorbed in Akron, Ohio.

Mara 13:26

What? Can you believe it? Why? Why?

AJ 13:31

Because I just watched, and speaking of film, I just watched the documentary on Devo. Oh you know what I'm talking about?

Mara 13:39

I do. Oh my god. Oh my god. They're from Akron. But smaller.

AJ 13:44

So I've just been like industrialized well with Akron, Ohio is like has filled my senses because I loved that band. Yes, and like the car tires. I mean, I didn't know the specifics. So yeah. That used to go to Detroit. I mean, speaking of that era, but um but fascinating though.

Mara 14:02

You don't often run into people who are like, I was just doing a deep dive on Akron Ohio.

AJ 14:06

Yes, that's right. I loved that band as a kid, but I was like eight. So I didn't really know what they were on about. So going back to the backstory is like, uh I mean I could perceive it in even then in tracks like Beautiful World, but but I didn't know it was a whole thing for them. Anyway, so that was fascinating. And and fascinating too, like I just did a podcast with a woman called Liz Carlyle. I don't know if you come across her. She wrote a book called Healing Grounds, and it was all about these sort of um ancient lineages of effectively regenerative agriculture, as we're calling it today, that have survived through the people who migrated in the face of a dominant industrial system, but they're still there with with their it's in their spirit, and and manifesting in Akron, Ohio, in in your

Ancestry Farming And A Living Worldview

AJ 14:56

case, and then in you to some degree here today with your story. And the other flank to the chat with Liz was that her new book is called Living Roots, and it's a compilation of pieces from different people everywhere. Yeah, it's really good. About the promise of perennial foods. Wow. And one of the pieces, well, the leadoff piece in the grains section is an Australian Aboriginal guy, Jacob Birch, he's been on the podcast too. And fascinating thing was he wasn't growing up as any leader in restoring ancient grains production to Australia. And even the understanding that was here in the first place, because all that was discarded. And it was going to Italy that turned it on because of what you described. They are the covers of tourist magazines, these places we innately sort of are drawn to and love. And he was spotting the food culture, but culture. He was not just spotting the food that's so rich and they're in a blue zone in the area he was in, Sardinia. So they live longer than everybody else on the planet. But it wasn't just the food. I mean, I think they even, there's cases of these places where they smoke and drink. I mean, it was so they had to be more. Yeah. And it was it was all about the culture and the community. And it was that that sparked, along with that then some ancestral stuff, some amazing story. Oh my god. They then converged and it was that that lit the spark of his path now, and he's he ends up in this book and and uh ongoing. Yeah. I think about that in contrast to your film in the Colorado, no, because that's not appearing on any tourist magazines. I mean, sure, the big the big damn lakes used to, but they're not now either, are they? So it's like much less the food aspect and and the consequences of the food aspect. So it's fascinating that we we're still we seem to be innately drawn still to the richness of those places that we've bought so far into this other way.

Mara 16:56

It's so interesting the way you are phrasing that, because I think I agree. And I think um it is really wild to me, like a lot of US citizens have access to other parts of the world. We can see them, we can enjoy them, we can go there, we can see that they're not dumpster fires many most of the time. And yet it's like it's really hard to bring some of those values back here, or when we do, it feels inauthentic. And I think actually, like, I think culture is a huge part of what we're seeing with the Colorado River to sort of connect these two thoughts a little bit because like so in Italy, so I go back to Italy a fair amount as well. I'm still very tethered to family that we have there. Um and there is this sense of like no food goes wasted. It really doesn't. Like if you no food goes wasted. Um, if you kill an animal, you eat every part of the animal. Even in modern Italy, that's that's still going on, that's still a practice. Um, and there's just also, I guess it's important to note though, like all of Italy is the size of basically Florida. The United States, like our sense of scale is just so incredibly massive that like we it's it's not necessarily a fault of our own, if you will. Like there are just there are systems that have developed and ballooned because this place is so huge. And so we we don't know where the food is coming from, and we're thus personally connected to it, generally speaking. Again, I'm using sort of a blanket terms here, but it's easier, I think, to be disconnected from the source of things, from the soil that's growing the food. It's easier to be disconnected from the water that makes that food grow. It's easier to be disconnected from everything because we've separated things out a little bit more. Like the farms are way out there, the cities are way over here, we don't really like integrate. You don't go to farm country for the weekend usually. That's not where people go. Um, and we just have different systems and different reward systems for like economically for like the choices that we make. So I think it's I think culture is a huge part of that sense of connectivity to those spaces. Um, and I think too, like, and this, you know, I think it comes up a little bit, or sort of in the subtext of things that are said in the film, but particularly in the American West, the the like DNA of this region is a sense of space and like ultimate freedom. And the idea that like you can if you can figure it out for yourself, you can have it for yourself. Like Manifest Destiny, I still think is very active in how we perceive the world and think, and I think it's very at play in what we're confronting with the Colorado River crisis. So just to your point, like the the culture that is underneath what's going on here is hugely important.

AJ 20:06

It's so well said. And I'm imagining then that's what uh made you decide, or perhaps motivated the film in the first place, made you decide to get so grounded with people, like to literally be in their places and in the these disparate folk, like farmers and urban residents of some of these new towns and and obviously First Nations. That there was a grounded approach, and even with the negotiators of the seven states, like you're you're with them. Is that why you're really trying to come down to size almost?

Mara 20:43

Uh I appreciate that. I would say yes. I think um So the the genesis for this project, like four years ago, I was in southern Colorado shooting a commercial, or like a documentary-style commercial, and we were speaking with a sheriff down in Alamos County, and we were in between takes, and I asked him, like, so what aren't we talking about today that's got you like losing sleep at night? And he said his answer verbatim was water wars. Wow. And I was like, that's really strong language. What do you mean, what do you what do you mean? Uh and he he started telling me this story about this particular hydrant. He's speaking to a different river system, the Rio Grande River, but same, same, same themes. Uh, there was a particular hydrant in Alamos County, and there were some like old-time folks that had a certain unspoken agreed-upon culture of how they would use that water and how much was appropriate to take out and stuff like that. And then there were some new people coming in that would come with these mega cisterns and fill them

Culture Scale And Manifest Destiny

Mara 21:47

up, and they were just taking a lot of water. And so there was a lot of tension between these two parties, and it eventually evolved into an armed conflict, and SWAT teams had to be called in to diffuse it. And so As soon as he mentioned that story, I had an like a general awareness, like a headline level awareness of the Colorado River's struggles and of the struggles in the reservoirs, even then. Um, and so his story just made me ask like, what must water have meant to these people that they were willing to potentially end their neighbors' life? Um and so the journey into what water means to us started with human conflict for me. And then as the research for the project took off, I saw a lot of human behavior impacting the life of the river. And so it was just like, well, I could tell a story that's like just the river and sort of just about it. But I want A, I want people to come and watch it in theaters. I want people to watch it online. So I think there has to be a level of drama. And B, the river isn't screwing up its own life. That's us doing that. So I feel like we're the subjects of the river story. And so that's yeah, that where that people first approach kind of came from was if we're the ones legislating it and we're the ones drawing down on its body, I think we're the ones who should have to fess up. And we're we're the ones who should have to um wrestle with the reality that we've created here.

AJ 23:29

Right on. Was that armed conflict? Was that New Mexico?

Mara 23:32

That was actually here, just in southern Colorado. Wasn't it? But I'm sure I wouldn't I wouldn't doubt that there are more of those happening.

AJ 23:39

Exactly. Yeah, no, because I one came up on the podcast a while back. There was a guy, a guy I had on called Jeff Goebel, who's globally renowned for the guy they call at last resort to try and bring community back together. Yeah. You might love that. Yes. But it's he's come to be so good at it over the decades that he actually this was written up in a book by Judith Schwartz, who's done a lot of writing on water.

Mara 24:06

Oh.

AJ 24:06

Yeah. And it's called Reindeer Chronicles, a terrific book. And one of the chapters was on Jeff's work in in a town in New Mexico on the Rio Grande, where they'd come to arms and yet did successfully diffuse it. And I I don't know where it's come since, but at least at that point, there were I mean, for this for Judy as the journalist, she's like, There's no way this process is coming out. There's no way it's overcoming these divisions. And uh and it did. And that you know, people in tears and talking about their parents used to be friends and blah blah and and there was relinquishing of power, like it can be it can be done if broached right, it seems. So let's before we proceed with your film, just to how how did you become the story person in your family? How did you get into film in the first place?

Mara 24:55

Oh I thought you were gonna say on this project, and I was like, I don't it's uh it just had wind in its sails. I don't even know. I don't it's a miracle. We might have to come back to that too, but start at the start. Okay. Uh in the family, I um hmm. Well, everyone in my family, parents and brother, uncle, everybody's really creative. Um, so I think like my dad's an incredible uh artist. He does charcoal drawings and sketch drawings, and he's really talented.

AJ 25:27

Love that medium.

Mara 25:28

Yeah. My mom is an incredible writer, she's a very literary person. My brother is an incredible writer. Um, and my like uncle is a painter, and he they're just they're all really creative people. And so I grew up like in a very creative house. And um we never had we never went to like summer camps and stuff because my mom really believed in the importance of boredom. Um, and I think it's really through that. Like I had a very active imagination, still do. And um I think it was just through like inventing worlds my whole childhood and having a lot of time to do it, that like story just became super interesting to me. And I'm just I don't, I'm guessing it's somewhere in the genetics, but I'm just a really visual person and I have a really visual memory. And so yeah, I just if I'm trying to make sense of the world, I just um I ask a lot of people a lot of questions and I take a lot of pictures, and at some point these kind of all convalesced into this sort

Learning Storytelling Through Film School

Mara 26:34

of um or coalesced rather into this interest in film where it was sort of putting together like some writing, some photography, some conversations with people. It just became a really perfect way to combine all of these little ways that I had learned from all of these people to make sense of things. And then I think also, and I think this is the case for a lot of like kids of immigrants, the stories from immigrants are really good. They're really intense, they're really powerful, and especially from cultures that love storytelling. So, like my grandmother, grandfather, my mom, my uncles, cousins, like we would get together every Sunday and have pronzo, which is like a long lunch. And the grandparents, especially the old timers, owned the story time over coffee, and they would be like standing up and gesticulating, and then they would argue and then they shout at each other about who was remembering what accurately or inaccurately, and like that it was just so vital, and like they're God, they were just great storytellers, and so it just and it was so impactful. Um, and it always felt for my brother and I, we always felt like we had lived their lives because they shared so much about them and like the details, and so it felt like like sometimes it was just like, God, I swear, like you would think we were there for for parts of their experiences, because it was just we we we had a level of like a recording of their time that um was really formative. So I think it was also just that. Like I think that, and particularly because their lives were impacted by the war, it was also just like, God, what a world! Like there's no way to control this mad, mad, mad place. So I just want to like sort of document it.

AJ 28:21

Wow. A, you've just outlined a boredom manifesto, haven't you? Perhaps your mom had one.

Mara 28:27

Yeah, I honestly, right. I she sh I'm all for it. And like even with our two-year-old, I'm just like, I'm not, I am not gonna schedule him for tons of stuff. It's not, I'm not doing it. Boredom is fabulous.

AJ 28:39

Profound. Yeah. And uh and the ancestral stories. I mean, that you feel like you are viscerally in their lives. I mean, that's the ideal now. You think of so much we've lost. I mean, people like me now are trying to recover it. We're trying to find out in absentia, largely. Such that there is industries coming up around this now to help people do that. Because we know we've realized it it mattered what we lost, and sometimes not by choice, obviously, but sometimes it's just we didn't value it. And uh and I I mean I didn't really either. So I'm hearing you loud and clear. So, with all that background, you were motivated to study and you went overseas even to do that. So, how was that experience of learning it? I mean, there was Oxford, I think, overseas, and and your local mini or local boulder. What was that like in comparison, even? Like, did you learn, did you would you come away from that going, yeah, I learned a ton there too? I needed to do that, or was it a bit drier, or how was it?

Mara 29:39

That's a really that's a really good question. I a little bit of both. A little bit of both. I think like learning something creative in a school setting is inherently gonna have like dry, you know, moments. Um, but I will say, like, this the CU film school, uh, I don't know if it is still like the number one or whatever, but it's a very highly ranked avant-garde film school. And so pros and cons to that, cons. We we really didn't learn, we really did not learn like how to be on set or run a set. Like it there were I was just like, oh my god, I'm never gonna like actually get paid to like make films. Um, but I will say it's a very risk-tolerant film program because uh because of that avant-garde sort of angle. And so um disclaimer, I don't know if the film program has changed since I went. So maybe now they have a great like set, whatever. Uh but at the time it was just a very arty program. And uh what it lacked in structure, it made up for in total creative freedom. And I made so much crap, so much crap. Over those four years. I I refused to share any of the things that were made. They were so bad. But what was good about it is that um there was a very like DIY, just roll up your sleeves, take a camera out for the weekend and go make anything. And that I think that was ironically, I think that was a really valuable sort of spirit to um support because the filmmaking industry can be so sluggish and so um just difficult and fickle that it does help to have a certain attitude of like, if you're not gonna get behind it, fine, I'm gonna rent a camera and go get this thing done. Um so that would be the pro of that program. Um and then in Oxford, Oxford was such a uh a joy. It was a short-term program over the summer, and I I ended up I ended up doing that largely because I was uh, let's see, I was like a junior in high school at the time, and I was getting in a lot of trouble for smoking. And my dad, my parents didn't like the friends that I had, and they were just like, we don't like how this is going. So um after getting busted, my dad was just like, here's the deal. You can either spend your time here working all summer and being basically grounded and banned from seeing your friends who we think are bad influences, or uh, is there something that you'd be interested in doing? Also, a great parenting moment. And uh that's when I was like, Well, I think I think film could be cool. And so this was again back in high school, this is before um CU. Uh, and so he helped me find. I think he was just like, how can I get her as far as possible from these people? Um, but he was the one who helped me find the Oxford Film School, and it was just a fantastic small film program. And so I was there for the summer with other film nerds, but these kids came with a lot more production history than I had, at least at that point. Um and it was run. I oh, I should look her up. I don't know what she's doing these days. At the time, this program was run by um Silva Basmajian. She was once the like one of the major producers or the head of the National Film Board of Canada. And she was a phenomenal producer to get to learn from. And so it was just a cool program because it combined that um feeling of like grab a camera, write a story, produce that story, present it to us in a month. Um so it had that level of like just grit and get it done energy, but it was also a really like sort of refined program. Like the feedback that we got from the producers was really good, and we got to sort of dip our toes in every facet of filmmaking. And so that Oxford, the Oxford film program sort of predated the university stuff, and so Oxford got me really hungry for what was possible, and then and that's what made me I've changed my major to film after that because at the time I was, I think, registered for uh like political science.

AJ 33:53

Says something too for um creativity and education processes, perhaps, you know? Like you can change it up and get real, yeah. Go into the heart of something, not necessarily stay broad brush until, you know, college or whatever. Yeah. So in retrospect, are you the child, are you the adult now that says, Yeah, I hated it. Well, maybe you didn't even hate it when you found out what was on offer. And maybe that's the answer to the question. Like when you offer something in turn, not just the banning or the or the cutting off of something the parents don't like. But did the parents make the right call or you still curse the lost friendships?

Mara 34:33

God, I do not. No, I they made the right call. Because I think what it really what like a lot, what they correctly identified was that I had a lot of like mental energy and uh I had really no outlet because school didn't feel very interesting. The friends, it was just like we were bored in the suburbs, and so what are we gonna do? We're gonna we're gonna rabble rouse. We're gonna just be somebody's pain in the butt. And so uh no, they made the right call because I wanted to do something. I wanted to make stuff. I just didn't have um it was a moment that needed parenting, I needed guidance.

AJ 35:14

Bang.

Mara 35:14

I didn't know what I didn't know.

AJ 35:16

Yeah. No, I'll relate to that as well. So then you went, you moved at some stage after college to LA, which I guess, yeah, you would. And I'm so I'm so curious then about that journey because I guess that's what led to the I mean 10-year process or something, hey, but led to the film. Yeah. And I'm curious too, within that journey for you of yeah, getting that practice, like being in the space, you also found that this thing by the looks called One Vote at a Time, where you were helping bring other filmmakers. I'd love you to weave that into the story. Like, what was that that time in LA like and and I guess that led to the doorstep of of this film?

Mara 35:52

Oh, sure. Oh my gosh. So I think the the whole thing comes back to, and this is maybe also like I think that this will connect into the spirit of the film later, but I think it really does come back to this like I'll just do it myself kind of energy because I'm not I'm not a very patient person. And so again, the pros and pros and cons, but the pro is that it's like if I feel like I'm waiting around for too long, or if I feel like I'm not able to get something done the way I want, I just sort of start. And so at the time, uh my senior year of college at CU, I just had this, I don't know, just this feeling that was like if I don't get out to LA or New York and get some serious training in the industry, I don't think I can actually sustain a career in this. And so I this was like, you know, pre-AI and pre-smartphones and all this stuff. And so I created an IMDB Pro account, which, you know, at the time, I don't know, $20 a year or something like that. Signed up for IMDB Pro. I looked up every movie I ever liked. And at the time these were not documentaries. So I looked up all these narrative films that I liked, figured out the production companies

LA Apprenticeship And Political Media Work

Mara 37:03

that made them, got their physical addresses, and then I printed out, I don't know why I remember this number, but I printed out 123 copies of my resume and sent it to 123 of these companies. Um and I got two phone calls back, and one of those turned into uh an internship. So I did that internship and got a flavor of life in LA. And then when I graduated from CU, so that was over a summer. Then when I went back to school and graduated from CU, um, I called one of my old contacts from that internship and just said, okay, I'm free. I'm a free agent. Where do I start? And he said, start at a talent agency because it's going to put you at the center of like the hive mind that is the film industry. Um, and so then I, same thing. I cold called the talent agencies and I felt I felt so like embarrassed doing it that I was like upstairs in my bedroom. I put like sunglasses on and nobody was there. But I was just like, I just need to hide. I was so um uncomfortable with what I was doing. But uh cold called the agencies and I ended up quite accidentally because they're trained now not to do this, but I asked to be transferred to HR, and the woman at the desk transferred me to HR. They're not really supposed to do that anymore. Um and I was able to get the email address from the assistant for you know, wherever to send a resume to. And so I sent my resume. She saw that I had interned out there, and so she called me up for a job interview. And then that was basically the the beginning of this whole thing. And so I flew out to LA for the interview, was able to start the job a month later, moved. Uh, and so then from there I worked in a talent agency, and I was very lucky to work for a talent agent who was in the independent film finance and distribution department of the agency. So I wasn't dealing with actors and directors and stuff like that. I was dealing with producers, financiers, the festivals, the world of independent film, and uh got to see it from many different angles and got to go to the festivals with my boss. And it was just a really that was like grad school of like the industry of making films. And at the same time, I was there for about two years. I never once touched a camera or did anything remotely creative. That was all emails and phone calls and stress, basically. Um and so at the end of that two years, uh, I told my boss, like, I I need to go, I need to work in development or something. I need to, I need to be a part of the creative process. I'm dying. And he's he saw it too. Um and so I left that and went to work after that with um Vice Media when they were opening up their Los Angeles office. And that was the first place where a lot of trust was placed in me to do research and to help turn that research into a pitch, and then to turn that pitch into casting for a host and uh just the whole the whole process from pitch through post-production. And it was so cool to be able to sit in the edit suites with these really pro editors and watch them make the choices that they made for all kinds of content, like sports stuff and news stuff and travel stuff. And so that exposure was really awesome. And because the the spirit at the time at Vice, and I I mean I think that this has always been the case with Vice, was that same thing of like go get it done, come up with a pitch and get it done. And so it just was a really nice match for that um style of of production. And then I just kind of wanted to keep going. And so I left. Well, I guess I'll clarify, I wanted to keep going, but I really didn't like working in an office. I really don't like having the same thing to do every day in the same place to be. It's just not a very good fit for me. And so um I was largely based like in LA for local projects, and it was an incredible education, but I just wanted to like mix up my life a little bit more. Um and so I left Vice and went freelance for the most part after that, and then ended up at Condé Nast for a while, doing sort of more commercial style pieces for them on the editorial side, and then went freelance again. Um, and when I went freelance again, I was in touch with a girlfriend of mine who also worked in the digital media world, and we were getting really frustrated with what we were seeing in politics, and we just thought like it can it feels so helpless sometimes just watch from the outside. Um, and we were like, what? There's gotta be something that we can do. And she uh is in this, so Sarah Ullman is the name of my partner on the on the One Vote at a time. Um she's an incredible entrepreneur and very much a self-starter, and she was just like, I'm I'm gonna take a few phone calls and I'll I'll get back to you. And she basically was able to figure out with uh these incredible lawyers that we could fundraise into a certain kind of account. We could we could create a certain kind of legal entity that we could fundraise into. We could use those funds to pay for production, and then we could basically make campaign ads for candidates at state level races who really don't have the budgets to have good digital media. And so that's what we did. Um, and we started with one video and then it just ballooned, and we were able to pull in more funding, and we were able, in the course of that, to hire 65 women to our team. Um, and it was really important to us because we were in the position of being young women in entertainment. And we were like, we know female cam ops, we know female sound ops, we know female editors, we we are female writer, director, producers, whatever. Um, and it's really hard to find work. And that seems weird because it's also ubiquitous in LA. Um and so we were just like, you know, not to be rude to the men folk, we were just like, we're only hiring women because we just know too many who aren't getting hired. And so we also wanted to like use this medium to be able to promote these other women's skills so that they could add this kind of stuff to their resume as well and put it on their reels. And so we ended up making over like 250 digital ads for candidates around the country. And we had a political advisor that we worked with and um lawyers in Washington, DC. Like we made sure that everything that we did was really dialed and that we got behind candidates who had a real shot. And now some of those candidates are like legislating at the federal level and running for major offices in their states. So we got behind some good folks. Wow. Is it still going? Yeah. No, so we've kind of the challenge with it, as you might imagine, is that if It was just so it was so much to sustain. And we k we couldn't be for profit uh legally. Our our structure depended on fundraising. And I was just like, I am not a fundraiser. I hate asking for money uh here to help on the business side. And we just we both were just kind of starting to miss uh our own personal creative endeavors. So we kind of um let it sort of slowly dissolve, but we continue to sort of check on candidates and remain available to anybody who asks if they need help with their digital media or writing an ad or something like that.

AJ 44:38

Right. It also shows a model too that others can go on with or adapt or whatever. So amazing. Yeah. So then what was the bridge to this film?

Mara 44:49

Yeah, okay. So this is why I say it's a miracle, because the whole thing almost felt like like a like films are really hard to get made, and and films with like a proper budget are really hard to get made. I don't take it for granted. Especially like in my agency days, I watched countless films fall apart with known directors because a financier would pull out at the last uh you know, minute. So truly, like this whole project has been an absolute miracle. Uh so I was still working freelance, have always, I think also because of the political work, stayed pretty in tune with like how media can support policy and how we can kind of use film to help in an interesting way educate people about policies. Um and when my husband and I had moved back to LA, his basically he grew up in the kind of boulder area and his parents and his and he knew Paula Dupree Pesman, who's a like world-class producer. And she was, I like used a fangirl before like had a chance to know her more just as a professional, as a person. I was like, Paula, she's such a big deal. Like I met her like once or twice before we moved out here. And then, yeah, so my husband was just like, we were we were talking about the fact that we were like, okay, so now we're in Colorado, we still want to work in film, we should just talk to all the film people we know and just see who's doing what and start to plug into the community out here. And that was

The Miracle Bridge To The Film

Mara 46:26

basically how this started. Because then we went to brunch with Paula on a Saturday, and she we were just getting to know each other more and chat and catch up, and she was like, What are you guys working on? And Michael, my husband, who's also one of the producers on this project, was like, Oh, Mara has this cool concept around like water, water conflicts. And I, it wasn't even like a pitch, it was just like a conversation. I was just like, Yeah, I'm really interested in like what I mentioned this conflict in southern Colorado, and I was like, I'm really interested in like what's gonna happen as water becomes more scarce and people become more passionate, so to speak, about the issue, like what's gonna happen? And she, being Paula, was just like, that's good. That's good. We should talk more about that. And so then, like a couple of weeks later, she got us on the phone with the production company Songbird Studios that's in Australia. Indeed. And uh we had a conversation with them, and they also were interested in the story, and so it just like it just sort of happened, and that's why it's like it's it's I claim like no credit for how this came together because it was like Paula is a master of being able to identify story, like it's our the weak points, the strong points. She's a master at it. And um, she was the one who like picked up on something in the pitch, and then the songbrew team was amazing at helping like sort of get it going and get it off the ground and helping us put together pitch materials so that we could build out um, just build out the budget and begin to start finding the stories. So um, yeah.

AJ 48:00

Wow. So it says something for sometimes not to get drawn on the struggle, not to necessarily assume it all has to be struggle, that you can get swept up in a well, in a current um I find myself talking in water metaphors a lot these days. The more you're gonna be able to do it. Me too.

Mara 48:20

I'm more aware of it now. Like this is so hokey, I can't do this.

AJ 48:26

So, how did you decide then to go about navigating such touching on what we're saying before, such a complex issue, so laden with layers, and now so acute, so the tensions are high. How did you decide on the approach for the film?

Mara 48:45

Oh, I will say that took a lot of hair pulling, and that was something that was evolving like throughout the process of making it. So, end to end, this film took us like three years to make, which for a documentary is pretty good. Yeah uh pretty, you know, contained. But so there were two things coming into it creatively that I felt really strongly about. One was that like it needed to be around, it needed to involve all the different people who are angry at each other. Like, let's just lean right on into the awkward and put all of these people next to each other because otherwise this what's the point? I I have like no interest in preaching to acquire. It's just like let's we if we're asking for courage from our leadership in the world from each other, like we have to do it, we have to be awkward. And so um that was first, and then the second one was I wanted the river to be treated in some capacity, like a living thing. I wanted it not to just be talked about as a resource. I wanted to hear how multiple people would talk about it, and I wanted also for like the river itself to kind of have a presence. And at first it was like maybe we'll do this without VO and just tons of really intricate sequences of river sounds and the sound design will be overwhelming and amazing. And then at some

Building A People First River Story

Mara 50:07

point we were like, well, maybe there's some VO. And then I think we sort of it evolved into the happy medium, which was this woman, Cheyenne, who has this really sort of intimate, earthy, lovely, uh direct relationship to the river that's really gentle. And so having her kind of speak, like not on behalf of the river. I know she would, I I'm confident she wouldn't like it if I even phrased it like that, but sort of speak in this way that is like um alongside the river. That sort of became how we helped the river to like have a bit more presence. But yeah, it was those were the two pieces I wanted, where like the river, like fundamentally the belief of this film is that the river is a living system and that we have to put everyone together that wouldn't normally appear together in a film.

AJ 50:58

Yeah. So there are so many stories in there that are striking. For me, I guess, you know, I'm really hit by the farmer in California when he says, we're either growing or dying. Yeah. And that's the system that they've been put in. And, you know, maybe they shouldn't. I mean, but it's not it's not on the farmer entirely because they're they either grow or they die, and we've seen this. Yeah. So he's sort of trying trying to play the game to some degree. But it it just points back to culture and the systems people operate in, and and true of the tribes too, of course, that they actually do have rights over there, it seems, which here they don't, but like almost zero. But uh but it plays out the same way, it seems, in the states where they get almost zero despite technically having rights. And then there was the the rancher who actually did broach change and pair with a conservation organization and you know risked being the crazy one for a while, but seemed to have pulled off some incredible regeneration on their place. So so many stories and let alone the the twins in St. George.

Mara 52:04

Oh no, I think great.

AJ 52:06

And they said they were talking about being able to get water out of a tap so easily. Wherever we go in the house, there's a tap and we can get water out of it. It's almost wrong. I was like, wow, there's some profound gems just in casual conversation, though. But what struck you out of all these stories?

Mara 52:22

Oh man, I I like this is kind of like being asked, like, what's your favorite movie, or like what's your favorite? Like, you know, because it's like I'm I love all of these people so much. Um boy.

AJ 52:36

Maybe it is that general point, Mara, uh, of like I hear you say that and I think, wow. That you've gone into places where your visuals tell a story where often it's just like, are you kidding me? You know, how many golf courses were there in a town of 100,000? 10? 10. And even the twins house and gardeners like, oh dear, you know? The farm, oh dear. So the visuals tell a story, but you came out feeling love for these people. And that's saying a lot.

Mara 53:10

Um I fundamentally I I fundamentally don't judge anyone of them. And I think that I this film would feel different if I had gone into it having a thesis that like one of these people is the most wrong. Yeah. Um I think that in the process of researching the film, the the first stuff that I started to kind of catch on to was like a lot of animosity towards agriculture. And so I was like, well, we gotta talk to some farmers and ranchers. I want to hear what they have to say about this. And then they'd kind of point their fingers at the cities and be like, well, why are they growing unchecked? Why like they're such jerks, blah, blah, blah. And so then I was like, well, we gotta talk to some people in the cities. And it just kept like the finger pointing, just kept taking us like in a circle. And so I was like, okay, so then it's bigger than each of these individuals. Like, we're if if we're starting to get circular in motion, my personal philosophy, then we have to go up a level because then it must be systemic. Um, and so I think part of what, like, I really do love all of these people. Like, I'm on text threads with all of them. Like Nolan, I'm not making this up just right before dialing in to chat with you. Nolan, our sweet Navajo corn farmer, uh, who's like sending me pictures of how his planting season is going this year and like sending prayers for my family. And like, that's the relationship I have with most of everybody in the film. Um, and I did not go in there trying to find anything out that would implicate anyone. I went in there trying to understand what you are using water for? How do you feel about your water? How do you feel about the water situation and what does what is a river for you? Like it was just it was the same block of questions for each person. And I just don't, I think that if you're really listening, you can't make an enemy out of any one of these people. And I think that was also the point of the film because that's what the research was showing me was like, there's so much humanity in this conflict. And let's just be like awkward and brave and touch on that stuff and get pissed. Like, some people came up to me after the premiere and they were pissed, and some people came up and they were in tears, and some people were grateful. Like, but that's what I wanted. Because I was just like, I we again courage. We have to be courageous. This is a very dangerous moment for this river. And we're the ones that have created this moment. So, like, we just we have to be in conversation, and that went for me too. And so, like, like you said, with Ronnie, like he's a big ag guy in the Imperial Valley. He grows alfalfa, he has targets on his back. And I didn't go in there with rose-colored glasses on, like, I'm gonna make Ronnie a hero. I was very upfront with him the whole time I approached him about like what our thesis was in the film that the river is alive, it deserves to be alive. And I wanted to understand who this heavy water user was and what was propelling his decisions. And we get into it, and just like you pointed out, he is a farmer trying to survive in a capitalist system that rewards growth above all else. And the the economics that inform his decisions. I'm not saying I like the idea of growing alfalfa with limited water in the desert or shipping anything abroad or any, like any, I'm not saying I'm in agreement with all the decisions that he makes. But as a person, as a citizen in the United States and the belly of the beast of capitalism, trying to survive as a farmer, understanding that his family has a legacy with water development in California, he makes sense to me as a person.

AJ 57:11

Right.

Mara 57:11

And so that was the approach for each of these people. It was just like, how can I like how can I make sure that they, their whole story makes sense so that even if you don't agree with them as a person, you could understand some of their thinking.

AJ 57:28

Right. There are definitely those layers, aren't they, of so embedded in a way of livelihood and even ancestral story, like going back to parents and grandparents and all that now, that that meaning, it's not the thousands of years of First Nations, but it's meaning still, which goes to show how much their meaning must be. Might just try to access that in some way. But that that's still all there. So some parts are striking for wow, that's a sense of entitlement, but then you can see. You can't see. And and part of the art of your film is you you see the stuff that it's just very humanly relatable. And it does make you then. I love how you worded that. When you're going round and in a blame circle, go to the notch above. It's what an old mentor of mine used to call everyday transcendence. He said, I'll leave the big transcendence to the Dalai Lama, but the everyday transcendence is to get systemic, to not get mired in in that. And that was the art too of Jeff Goebel and his and his working with communities. It's to tap into the to a deeper sense, ultimately to a love. No? So this comes back to water too. And the ultimate shift that you sort of outlined before, which is ultimately getting, I say getting back, just with regards to us all having an indigenous past somewhere, to the idea of it as kin and not resource. But I think about how, in a sense, how to get there through the very real prism right now of the negotiations happening or not happening in this acute moment where this year it's charged with with redoing the compact on the Colorado. And so there are these seven negotiators that you get to directly. And there was a moment, Mara, where one, one of them that you got a grab from was on the river. And that's what I was looking for in my mind as you're going through, like, oh, one's on the river. And he said, It's good to get to the river. I'm like, wow, good on you. And then his next line was for a few moments. I'm like, no.

Mara 59:24

For a few moments.

AJ 59:27

Maybe that's just the way the cut happened and what he said in that moment. But it brought to mind someone I did then later see in your credits who I've had on the podcast recently, and that was Pete McBride.

Mara 59:37

Yes.

AJ 59:38

Because his op-ed in Time magazine recently said they should get on the river. And this was with some backstory to where it's happened before. Yeah. Get on the river and don't come off until you've sorted it. You have to be connected. You have to feel it almost at this level. To be able to, well, maybe not love each other, maybe that's too big an ask, but to connect in a way that enables resolution or some step towards it. And there it was in a little moment with the Utah

Negotiations Rights And Shared Sacrifice

AJ 1:00:11

guy.

Mara 1:00:12

Yeah, that's such a good observation, your note about his line. Well, I'll just say too, like, I wholeheartedly agree with Pete on that. Like, I think that they should have to be on the river. The fact, for example, that the Colorado River Water Users Association conference, Crua, happens once a year in December. It's like the big conference of all the water users. And last year, the seven negotiators refused to even meet with each other at this conference because they were, it was such a divisive issue. But so this is this is the conference where the industry of water meets every year to talk about whatever related to the Colorado River. It takes place inside of a casino in Las Vegas.

AJ 1:00:57

I knew you'd say that.

Mara 1:00:58

You not only reek of cigarette smoke, but you also, there's no concept of the time of day. You can't see outside, and you sure as hell can't see the water that you're talking about. And I feel like if they're not going to be on the water, like Pete's suggestion, then they should be at Lake Powell staring at the bathtub rings as they talk and fight. Because what is really frustrating to watch is all of these people, the attorneys general, the governors, everybody who's involved in this process. Of course, it ultimately comes to these seven negotiators, but they are lobbied by other effective and powerful people. It is really frustrating to watch everybody say, Well, I have these rights and I have these rights, and therefore your rights don't matter because my rights supersede your rights. Well, mine are senior to your rights. Like the just the it's such, it's such an insanely unorganized kind of organization that does not account for what is naturally a variable and fickle river system. Again, like it doesn't account for the natural variability of that hydrology. But it's also like you don't have rights to something that's disappearing. So we need to have a conversation that owns that fact and where tough decisions are made. And that's like what we're asking for in the film is like, we're not all gonna ride off in the sunset together. We're not all gonna be friends. We're gonna, some people are gonna leave these negotiations angry. But the point is, if we prioritize the river, if we prioritize keeping this five million and change year old river system alive, not only because we rely on it, but also because it would be a real shame if we killed something that's lived for that long. If that's the priority, then asking people to make reasonable cuts is not going to go down any easier for the people that have to do that. But it's what's necessary. And I'm not trying to glorify that. Like farmers and ranchers, like you cut water for them, and that's the same as like asking a consultant to drop an effective or a well-paying client of theirs. Like water for them is business. So I'm not trying to glorify that, but I'm just to say like our cities are exploding, our suburbs are exploding, the farms are trying, and there's food waste to account for and all the geopolitics and all of that. But the bottom line is that like there have to be shared sacrifices, and it's not going to be comfortable. We have to cut back. It's like if the if the river is a bank account, lots of people use this example, we're overdrawn. So we have to fix our budget, and that's not gonna be fun. Like, we don't get to go out for ice cream on Fridays anymore, but that is because we value the river.

AJ 1:03:58

So nature's gonna foreclose.

Mara 1:04:01

Yeah.

AJ 1:04:03

So it's um well, you're basically drawing the point, aren't you? To to what does the river need? And I was asking that. I mean, that's the shifting question. We've sort of got to gravitate to that. What does the river need to be there at all? And sort of go from that first principle. It was evidenced in you mentioned Cheyenne, was it, that uh you sort of key protagonist throughout, in the sense that she spent her time, most of it, entirely actually in the water. And it's so it was sort of it was subtly demonstrating that different point, and you had a lovely, a lovely line. I think it was from her towards the end, The Rivers Waiting to Meet Us Again. Yes. It's some of what we hear from Aboriginal Australians too, with our very similar we talked about this with Pete, very similar issues and that same cultural and uh and systemic backdrop, really. Yeah. So this film isn't, it looks like it's not just film, there is sort of pathways to action stuff, huh? And so how are people gonna see it? What's its trajectory from here? And how indeed do people sort of get stuck in to try and make this actually happen?

Mara 1:05:07

Oh God, I love this question. Okay. Like the first thing I have to do remember to do is mention the website because that's where this all makes sense. So our website is riverdocumentary.com. And on the website, you can request to screen the film, you can request to do a community screening. We're very interested in taking the film far and wide, and particularly in doing it in this way that is via community screenings, because I think part of what we have experienced firsthand is that the conversations that come right after people watch this film are feisty, funny, productive. They're really cool because we've I think the film, uh, if I may be so bold as to say, I think it effectively disarms parts of this conversation for people because we didn't come at it trying to like shame anybody. We didn't shame people in the suburbs who. Who didn't realize that they needed the river. We didn't shame people for buying houses where they bought houses, and we didn't shame the farmers, right? So we're really just trying to come at this like very uh approachable and open to the reality that these are the people in the economies that are drawing down on this river, myself wholly included. Yeah. Anyway, sorry. So to get back to your question.

AJ 1:06:21

Actually, just to say, Mara, before you go on, it makes perfect sense that you would sort of prioritize that approach when you think of that's the approach the film took and is what is necessary if we're going to even develop a love for each other. But if we're going to at least connect pr um productively,

Screenings Panels And How To Act

AJ 1:06:38

that might it's almost too dry a word. If we're going to connect meaningfully to bring about this seismic shift in approach, then it takes connection with in all the ways you're describing. So to land the filming communities to actually uh help do that, it makes perfect sense.

Mara 1:06:57

Thank you. Yeah, that's that really is our goal. I mean, of course, it's a film. We're gonna try and get streaming platforms and we're working on distribution and all of that stuff. But first and foremost, the river is struggling now. This topic is in the headlines every day now. So while we work on a bigger distribution plan, we are getting the film out there to as many communities as we can. And so you can access our booking team via riverdocumentary.com. Uh and we are like we're booking cool old theaters in different cities in the basin, we're booking conference, like we're wherever people can get a crowd together, like we're there, we want to be there. And we're also really encouraging, and as much as we can be at these, we're doing this too, putting together panels immediately following the film for like 30 minutes. It doesn't need to take up everybody's everything, but like just to get those conflicting people in the room. So whether that's people who are in the film or people who are in a specific community who want to get together and talk about solutions or who want to like arm wrestle about who should have more water for what, like, we really are encouraging follow-up conversations while the vibes are good, if you will, around this complicated thing. And so um that's that's really the priority. And I think, you know, there's uh there's a rancher here in Colorado who lives on the western slope. His name is Paul Bruchet. Lovely human being. We spoke with him earlier early on in the research process. So one of the things that he said is he's like, whenever I'm gonna go like approach somebody that might be a little standoffish about this issue, I just bring a six-pack. And usually by the end of the six-pack, we're talking. Bang! And so I was just like, this is what I need to do and make this social.

AJ 1:08:43

Right. Well, this a few of us are thinking about this. It's what Pete talked about in the Colorado too, where there was the example back in the 70s where some adversaries got down and had drinks on the on the river. Is maybe we, yeah, we get the food in from some local farmers and we bring in some drinks, and maybe there's some music from some local artists, and artists are talking to farmers and uh talking to business people, and and yeah, the policymakers and regulators. Yep, maybe maybe there's a lot in that.

Mara 1:09:08

I think there's a lot in that because I think it also takes the issue from feeling far away and like somebody else is going to come up with the solution to being like, okay, I'm a part of it. I'm a part of the problem, I'm a part of the ideas for the solutions. And like, we're really trying to encourage people, like, don't silently read the news and despair. We've put language in our website that people can copy, paste, and send to their negotiator and to their governor's office to pressure them to get a seven-state deal done so that this doesn't get decided in Washington, DC, no matter who's in charge. We want this decision to be made by people who live in the West and understand this way of life and probably care more about the river, generally speaking, than the Supreme Court justices who don't live out here and haven't touched this water. And I and to Pete's point, like I think that even the state legislators need to touch this water a lot more. But um, but yeah, I just think like making it more approachable and personal and social is a way to help break down that barrier of entry that can make it feel like there's nothing I can do about this. And I also am just personally not a fan of feeling despair about the world. And so it's like if we can offer people a small action that is meaningful, we're gonna do that. And so from the people that we have consulted with on our impact campaign, that has been the takeaway. Like, don't be quiet. Let your negotiators know that even if you don't know what the solutions are, that you're watching them.

AJ 1:10:34

And that you care.

Mara 1:10:35

That you care.

AJ 1:10:36

I think that is uh so well said, and it makes sense having seen the film. It's like the film's almost the primer, it's not the main event in a way.

Mara 1:10:46

Yeah.

AJ 1:10:46

Yeah.

Mara 1:10:47

Absolutely. I totally agree. I think like the film is like a really nice conversation starter. It's the kindling, but like the rest of the fire is what happens after the film. And and I think um it's also like what we're trying to demonstrate with the film and what we've found really exciting success from uh on the ground at our premiere and at some of this events that we've done since is in those panels. Like, I think because the farmers are pointing their fingers at the metropolitan areas, well, get them together. Like, get them together in your area. Find a farmer, find a rancher, find someone who lives in one of the apartment complexes, and let's get together and talk about why we are where we are. And then, like, there's so much, I think, particularly in the US, I think there's a very powerful narrative that rural and urban cultures are so different and don't understand each other, and we're different politically and spiritually, and all these different things. And it's like hogwash. Yeah. I totally massively different disagree based on lived experiences with people. And so I think it's like we have to let's let's shatter that one. And I think as far as being like white people going into indigenous communities, like there is a way to approach that with respect and to and to include and involve meaningfully and legally, even uh indigenous perspectives on the natural world without taking away the fact that there are still very real material human needs that need to be met as well. And so I think there's just so much like trepidation sometimes in just approaching each other. And so that's that's the goal, is like just do it. Yeah, just do it.

AJ 1:12:33

So well said, so well said, Mara. I'm so glad that that's sort of where we've come to a conclusion of sorts. That's so well said, and it's certainly been my I mean, I've been in a way making up a deficit from my childhood ignorance and young adult in ignorance as well, I would say, with not just with River, with people like the whole kit. And certainly the last 10 years with a podcast getting out into rural areas as a city dweller and a coastal guy has been enlightening in ways. I mean, I could sit here and talk to you for hours about hell. Up to it's 300 episodes of of that to test to my my journey from ignorance to uh at least some connection. At least some connection.

Mara 1:13:11

Yeah, I think that's amazing. I think you're awesome for doing that, truly, because it's like I think a lot of people feel that way and and wouldn't have the courage to pursue conversations. So good on you.

AJ 1:13:21

Oh, it started to just have to be done, and um and a bit of miracle stuff too. So yeah, I I relate to the the current started to flow, Mara. So before we wind up, we're talking music, as we always do, and we've had some lovely exchanges. Oh yeah. Wow, because I often say you know how good a movie's gonna be by how it sounds out of the gate, and it's like, oh, this music is different. You wouldn't necessarily expect it to line up with these. Yeah, so kudos. And you I suggest you know we could patch a couple of pieces in, and and you have delivered a couple of pieces, we can do that. Uh Mark Crawford's work, amazing. And then you also delivered another track which we won't be able to patch into for copyright by Nina Simone, which you're personally reveling. Yeah, I know, personally reveling at the moment, which is an old fave of mine too. So it's like, oh yeah, I know where you're the things you're feeling right now. But tell me why. Let's start with the soundtrack pieces that I can patch in. Why those two?

Mara 1:14:19

Oh man. Okay, so the first one that I sent you, I have to remind myself the titles of these.

AJ 1:14:27

Story of a river.

Mara 1:14:28

Thank you.

AJ 1:14:29

Okay, so Eric's Grasses.

Mara 1:14:32

Yes. Okay, so Story of a River. So there's these different sequences in the film where like all of the people drama has kind of come to a you know, standstill, and then we're we're back at the river. And it was really important to us that every time that we go back to the river, we're kind of going into this place that's a little bit without being too like over the top about it, that's just sort of like ephemeral and timeless, and like has a more uh free, structureless kind of feeling to it. And so we really want, we were like, how can we create music that can feel like the different moods of water? Um,

Soundtrack Choices And River Mood

Mara 1:15:11

and so story of a river, I love because it's when Cheyenne is reminding us of how old the river is, but more than that, she's reminding us of like the nature of the river and the way that it is variable. And these there's this beautiful part in that music queue where there's this like deep, almost bassy hit uh in the queue. And right when that's happening in the film, we're seeing this beautiful, like uh really small, small little waterfall that's in the back canyon right off of Lake Powell. Uh yeah, we were right by Hoover Dam when we got that shot. And just one of my camera guys went up this like tiny little crevice, and he was like, I just found the most amazing thing. And there was just water just moving as water moves, and it's splashing over this like almost black-colored rock, and it was just so free and lovely and and humble, and it felt like this little secret spot where the river was still like working like a river. So I just love that cue because I think it it it lets us into that like sort of secret old world of the river. When I just I I find those moments so also like they I think that those moments really alleviate the tension for me of the what's going on in the human world when we go into those moments and the music kind of carries us over those river visuals. It's like, oh, you get a moment of like therapy.

AJ 1:16:34

Right, totally. It's because it's it's still beautiful and amazing, even though it's emaciated and same applies here with our yeah.

Mara 1:16:43

Yes, it's still so beautiful.

AJ 1:16:45

Yeah, great, and the other ones?

Mara 1:16:48

Eric's grasses, oh yes, Eric's grasses is just so fun. So, Eric, obviously, you know him through the film now. He's just this fantastically like Western guy, his house, everything about him. You're just like, this guy, he lives so deep in the country that like you're just you're driving for miles and miles and miles, and you're like, there's no houses, there's no buildings. Like this guy is committed to rural living, and he is. He is so at home and at peace out there, he is so integrated with his environment out there. So for the music cue Eric's Grasses, Mark and I were talking, and we were like, we need something that's got the grit of like a spaghetti western, but with the with the also with like the victory of a spaghetti western. And so when Eric's grasses come back after two years without having water touch them, we were like, this needs to sound like Enio Morigone, like this has to have that quality. And so Mark, in all of his infinite brilliance, brought in like these kind of sweeping cool vocals, and it still feels really like a gritty western world, and but a victory after a hard-fought battle. And I was like, that is so perfect for a guy who was successfully growing grass after two years of drought.

AJ 1:18:00

Oh, there's our culmination and full circle back to Italian roots, Mara. Look what you've done.

Mara 1:18:05

Yeah, didn't even think about that. It's so true.

AJ 1:18:09

Oh, thanks. Thanks so very much for chatting. It's been absolutely wonderful to come across your work and see this piece and have our interests coincide and have this wonderful chat. Thanks a lot.

Mara 1:18:23

Oh my god, thank you so much, AJ. You're such a joy to speak with. Thank you for all the lovely and thoughtful questions.

AJ 1:19:00

If you're near the University of Illinois in Chicago, there's a screening there with Mara on Wednesday night, 22nd July. And again, you can keep tabs on upcoming screenings and streaming, sign up for newsletters, engage in their action items, and reach out about hosting community screenings through the website riverdocumentary.com. Community screenings are also now possible incidentally, for Bring Them Home. All links in the show notes. If you're enjoying the podcast, I hope you'll consider becoming a paid subscriber on Patreon or Substack for some writing too. This episode was only possible with your support. So thanks very much to three new subscribers this week on Substack, a very generous anonymous subscriber at the founding level, as they call it. You know who you are. Thanks so much. And Tony McDonald and Paula Jorgensen, thank you too. Including Paula for sending this very kind message. Your work combines the head, heart and hand so eloquently, it resonates deeply. I'm on the journey with you to care actively for the natural systems that we are interdependent with. Thanks, Paula. And, topically enough, thanks for your application to our Confluence Murray River Journey too. Just a few spots left on that, by the way. So if you're interested in paddling Australia's longest river with us in March, jump on The RegenNarration website and follow the links. The music you're hearing is, as at the top, the story of a river by Mark Crawford from the River Soundtrack. My name's Anthony James. Thanks for listening.