The Purpose Pledge: Changing Capitalism As We Know it, with Dr Bronner’s Les Szabo

‘Dr. Bronner’s Has a Plan to Change Capitalism as We Know It.’ That’s the headline that Inc. Magazine ran with on the recent launch of the Purpose Pledge. Describing it as ‘a new gold standard of social entrepreneurship,’ the article led off with this: ‘The B Corp and the billionaires’ Giving Pledge are broken—so says the team at Dr. Bronner’s.’ Well, it might be a bit more nuanced than that, but Bronner’s has discontinued its B-Corp certification. 

I spoke with CEO, David Bronner, at the company’s HQ in California a couple of years ago, for episode 207, about the incredible story of this top-selling brand of natural soaps, body care and food products. Since David became CEO in 1998, the company has grown from $4 million in revenue to $250 million, and all while continuing to change so much about the systems and stories we live by.

Back then, this podcast happened to be the first to feature the breaking news that the Purpose Pledge was readying for launch. That launch happened earlier this year. And today, more breaking news, as another four companies have just signed on.

The key architect behind the Pledge, and its Executive Director, is Les Szabo. He’s the quietly spoken Chief Strategy and Impact Officer at Dr. Bronner's, described to me as having flown under the radar for a long time. Part of the family behind the family in a way, as his wife is also a senior long-term executive at the company. And how they met and came to be where they are at Bronner’s, and with Les now launching the Pledge (and related Fund), is one enormous, heart-rending, death-defying, instructive, hopeful and crazily serendipitous story, that in large parts I sense hasn’t been shared before. 

If you’d like to go straight to a particular part of our conversation, you can navigate via the chapter markers & transcript.

Recorded 13 August 2026.

Les’s blog on the Dr Bronner’s site. 

My conversation with David Bronner back in episode 207, from May 2024. 

And with the couple behind Food Connect in Brisbane, who have used the term ‘careholder’ since their successful crowd-funded equity raise, which we first talked about for episode 28, Transforming Food, Finance & Society.

Episode 227 featured Joel Caldwell talking about his award-winning short film The Green Buffalo.

For a short story about the uncanny moment that took place after this conversation, that's in my latest Substack piece.  

Music: 

Honey Mustard, by Randy Sharp (from Artlist).

Regeneration, by Amelia Barden.

Transcript

Les 0:06

But the download was so simple but so profound and and the idea was that everything that I do has to be with asking that question of am I laying the groundwork for what's next?

Why The Purpose Pledge Matters

AJ 0:26

G'day, Anthony James here for The RegenNarration, featuring the stories that are changing the story, enabling the regeneration of this living planet. Dr. Bronner's has a plan to change capitalism as we know it. That's the headline that Inc. magazine ran with on the recent launch of The Purpose Pledge. Describing it as a new gold standard of social entrepreneurship, the article led off with this The B Corp and the billionaire's giving pledge are broken. So says the team at Dr. Bronner's. Well, it might be a bit more nuanced than that, but Bronner's has discontinued its B Corp certification. I spoke with CEO David Bronner at the company's HQ in California a couple of years ago for episode 207 about the incredible story of this top-selling brand of natural soaps, body care and food products. Since David became CEO in 1998, the company has grown from $4 million in revenue to $250 million and all while continuing to change so much about the systems and stories we live by. Back then, this podcast happened to be the first to feature the breaking news that the Purpose Pledge was readying for launch. That launch happened earlier this year, and today more breaking news as another four companies have just signed on. The key architect behind the pledge and its executive director is Les Zabo. He's the quietly spoken Chief Strategy and Impact Officer at Dr. Bronner's, described to me as having flown under the radar for a long time. Part of the family behind the family in a way, as his wife is also a senior long-term executive at the company. And how they met and came to be where they are at Bronner's, and with Les now launching the pledge, is one enormous, heart-rending, death-defying, instructive, hopeful, and crazily serendipitous story that in large parts I sense hasn't been shared before.

Portland Home And The Oregon Coast

AJ 2:32

G'day Les. Thanks a lot for speaking with me, mate. It's great to have you. Nice to be here, AJ. You're at home. Can you bring us into it? What does home mean to you and feel like?

Les 2:41

Uh home is is Portland, Oregon. And um I I work with Dr. Bronner's. Our company is headquartered in North County, San Diego. And so and and my wife works for Bronner's as well. And so we spent a good chunk of time down there, but uh but home is Portland. We've been here for 20, 26 years.

AJ 3:04

Yeah. I noted on your LinkedIn profile you've got a picture of sweeping ocean. Is that Portland?

Les 3:10

Well, that's the Oregon Coast. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, we spent a good chunk of time on the coast. And um, yeah, we have uh yeah, uh I I I surf and my daughter surfs. And so um, yeah, Oregon Coast is a pretty special place. Um surf conditions aren't always great, uh, but just the the the terrain and the just the beaches there are so unique and different from anywhere in the world, and they're just so beautiful. So it's um even if you're not getting waves, just being in the water and and paddling out is is a very special experience.

AJ 3:54

Right. I hear you. And it might be worth bringing up just off air, you were telling me about your experience last week of what it was like living there.

Les 4:03

Oh, yeah. Oh man, it it was it was terrible. Um, it hasn't been well, so we have I I I think over two million acres have burned just in Oregon. And yeah, the winds shifted last Tuesday, and then uh the the smoke in Portland was really just so bad. It hasn't been that bad since um I I think 2000. Uh, but we were essentially in in lockdown. Um, and my wife had sent me uh a clip uh saying that because she's up in Vancouver, BC right now, she's um she's tending to her mom, but um she said that uh or the clip said that uh that day, that Tuesday, the air quality was the the worst on the entire planet. Um and so we were just yeah, we were just indoors and um pretty much uh didn't go outside for about three days, which is kind of insane.

Smoke Lockdown And Climate At Home

AJ 5:07

Yeah, it is reminiscent of some of the stuff we've gone through here in Australia. On the topic of home, but not only home, Les, it occurs to me what you wrote recently about your family background at a really poignant time, obviously for Hungary, with Orban's regime being overthrown. But it also occurred to me, you know, where I started the podcast with David Bronner was a similar sort of vein. It was the family background, of course, that led the Bronas to the States and started the company ultimately, and that he's carrying on all these years later with obviously our family, but also in a context that gets a bit more complex. So I'm curious for

Refugee Roots And Hungary’s Turn

AJ 5:48

you then. You were motivated to write that very moving piece, which you started with your father and his experience of being arrested as a college student in Hungary protesting Soviet authoritarianism. Did he share much about that experience with you?

Les 6:03

Not a lot. It was definitely a sore subject. And so um I was always curious as a kid, um, but I I also just realized it was um, you know, sort of a very sensitive topic. And so, um, yeah, bits and pieces over time. Uh, but uh my my my father passed many, many years ago. Um, and I do regret that I I didn't get the full story and all the details. And I actually got more from my mom than I did um um directly from him. And so yeah, he was a college student and was arrested and uh essentially kind of blackballed from university and um didn't go back and uh it was it was when the uh the the Hungarian revolution in 1956, that's when he um escaped and crossed the border, uh the um the western border and went into Austria. And my my mother was actually working at the refugee camps and and and she spoke Hungarian because she was also of Hungarian descent.

AJ 7:17

Oh, right.

Les 7:17

That's how they met. And um, yeah, and then um and then he actually had to continue on because uh yeah, it was a really bad situation with the the secret police and and them crossing the border into Austria trying to um sort of bring back uh political prisoners. And so um he they they made the decision to um immigrate uh to the to the U.S. And he went first and then my mom followed. And then both my my sister and I were were were born in the U.S. So yeah, it was uh a pretty incredible story. And then and then um and then after school I went there to study uh politics and economics and language uh through a fellowship. And I actually stayed at the same economics university um um in the same dorms that where my my my father was. Um and uh yeah, it was just incredible, kind of full circle moment. But um, yeah, in and Orbon at the time, this was you know, in it was in 1990. And so just, you know, the um the the energy around the Fidesz party was amazing because it was like these young uh reformers that were really just I mean, the younger generation of Hungarians was was just so enthusiastic about um that party and about supporting them. And and then you you you look and see what happened over those few decades, and it it was tragic. And um, yeah, I just mentioned in the piece that you know that was um where we landed there and and what was going on there in the last few years was I think very much what that sort of autocratic regime was, um, you know, exactly what my father was fighting uh back in the 50s.

AJ 9:26

Uh it's incredible to think. As much for your return to the same college, even were you starting to actively look into your background there as well? Or or it was just sort of by osmosis, if you will.

Les 9:39

No, I I I I sought out um sort of distant relatives and and and spent time with them, looked them up, and um, there wasn't much family left. And um most of the the family that um I stayed in contact with growing up was on my mom's side in in Austria. Um but but yeah, there's um there's a few family members. Um and and this was very a very rural part of Hungary of Um Yeah, just um small farms and um and but but yeah, it was it was still important for me to connect and and just have a relationship with those extended family members. Yeah.

AJ 10:26

I wonder what really um stood out to you the most. Did you feel a sense of home and in even in the people you were meeting? I'll never forget my brother said to me when he traveled to Ireland once and dad had by that stage researched some of the past history that we'd lost, and he my brother found himself in a house and they had photos along the wall, and he said, It was like, oh my god, I'm looking at my aunties and uncles I know in Perth today. Did you feel a sense of, oh yeah, this is where I'm from, these are my people, or how was it?

Les 11:00

Yeah, I I I I wouldn't go that far. Um I mean, it was it was more, I think, just uh a sort of exploration. And and my wife, who I met in Hungary, who was uh uh from or grew up in Canada, uh, we spent her grandmother was still in Hungary, and so we spent a lot of time with her. We'd go to like classical concerts and the opera, and and um it was like I think there was that that made it a little more tangible. Um, and we were a little closer to her because she was right in the city, and so and and we saw her like every week. Um, but I I would say, yeah, I I you know what we we we were there for for seven years together, and then uh we decided to start a family, and that's when we we came back. And so, and and I think to answer your question, it we came back because it wasn't home. And um, and it was time to I I I mean seven years is like a nice, nice chunk of time um to to experience like a place fully. Um, but you know, once you you think about um starting a family, then you're you're you you have that change in in in sort of reference and and point of view about things. And um and it was very important for us to feel more comfortable and be closer to um our our more immediate family.

AJ 12:40

Yeah.

Les 12:40

So that that's that that was the primary reason uh we we elected to come back, is is that we wanted to raise our family uh closer to our home.

AJ 12:50

Talk about the twists of fate, huh? That your your dad meets your mom in a refugee camp having fled, you know, disaster, and and that you meet your wife going back to the roots. It's fascinating how life works, no?

Les 13:04

No, it's it's it's amazing. And I that that's that's that's what life is, you know. It's it's it's not the I mean the biggest events are are not planned. It it is just you know synchrodestiny and and or serendipity or whatever you want to call it, but that's what it is. And you know, just to think about what happened there and meeting my wife and how the the direction, how things pivoted based on that. Um, you know, just these these pretty much random events that that shape your life in the biggest way.

AJ 13:40

Wow. I'm curious too, on the political front there, with what you were saying before, which is extraordinary to think then where it does go. But of course, yes, it's flipped again now and Orban is out. And you wrote that you feel a sense of optimism in that for Hungary, but not just for Hungary. And of course, in the US context now is looms large in certainly over here as well, in a similar kind of way, quite not all. I, you know, I'm in touch with the spread of opinions on it, but certainly there's a large thread of autocratic uh thrusts. But you feel optimistic about the broader picture too, out of what you saw happen in Hungary?

Les 14:21

Yeah, I'm I'm very optimistic. I think that um I I feel like there is a shift happening, and um, and we could talk more about what that means in terms of sort of my day-to-day work and and and how that that sort of optimism is is is being translated to action. Um, but but yeah, I mean it it's just interesting because for most of you know, after we left Hungary, I mean I mean it's whatever, 10 million people, you know, kind of uh not um not an important country in terms of the kind of geopolitical larger landscape. But you know, the the the fact that um that Orban was defeated, I think for a lot of people, it's just interesting that it made you know global news just folks talking about the fact that, you know, is this the first domino? And so I think that um yeah, from that perspective, uh I was I was, yes, like I said in my piece, I was proud to be a Hungarian at that point. Right.

AJ 15:32

Right, yes. And my old mentor here uh passed away 15 years or so ago, was of Hungarian descent too. So he was sort of meeting a few of the old stories I've come up with too in the last period of time. So where did you end up growing up then when your parents came to start a family in the States?

Growing Up Under Surveillance

Les 15:52

Yeah, it was in um Southern California, um Los Angeles County, um, in uh a city called Bellflower. And um, yeah, that's where um my sister and I were born and we grew up there and we eventually moved to Orange County, which is the county south of Los Angeles, and um most of my teen years were spent there.

AJ 16:23

Yeah, were they?

Les 16:26

Um I mean they they were all right. Uh yeah, I mean I I was a different kid just just based on my background and you know, like it it was uh um yeah, we we grew up very different. And you know, the the the sort of um it it was very odd because even in the US um there was um my my father was this is sort of you know it was the early sixties and and still sort of the anti-communism fervor and and just the fact that we were from an Eastern European country and and lived in a you know very working class white neighborhood. I I think that um you know people didn't really like they they they they wouldn't our neighbors wouldn't know where Hungary was on a map. And so it's not like we were welcomed into that community and um we actually had like FBI agents that were parked in front of our house and we're we were being surveilled. Um and like I remember just as a kid when my father would you know tell us to just you know lay on the floor and close the blinds and not say anything. And so it was um you know that experience of of um fear and and and not being in a safe place is is ingrained in you. You know, once having having those experiences as a as a kid, I I I think they're they're just you know in some ways kind of very traumatizing. And so you look at the world and you know the the the the sort of um the cognitive spinning around whether you're in a safe place and a safe environment, that that that becomes like kind of an ongoing thing. And so um, yeah, I would say not not a very sort of um diverse, uh very tolerant um place. And so yeah, I was um I I was happy to to get out of there. I mean, I had I had a lot of fun in high school, uh, but I was just so ready to leave there. And then yeah, further away the better.

AJ 19:10

Oh, to think that it was refuge that you thought the family thought you'd gained.

Les 19:16

Yeah, you know that that's exactly right. So the the the that sort of um like you you escaped um once from Hungary and then you escaped again from Austria, and then and then you you're in a new and and you know, total like immigrant story. My my father came over with with nothing. I mean, literally nothing. And so um and and then to sort of build a life and and build a career and but still have that sort of like that the fear, you know, um that that is that that never really um completely goes away. And so yeah, and then and then there was um yeah, uh always the the the the the sort of economic security was always everything kind of boiled down to you know money and survival and and and so um yeah that was you know, it just like I just think about you know my father's perspective and it was just like he he he he never got a break, you know, he he never was able to sort of exhale and relax and say, you know, this is this is home. And um so yeah, I I I don't want to go too far on this just because like I it I'm I'm not sure it's that interesting to your listeners, but um, but yeah, I mean it's it's uh you know that that's why I think like I I don't know, there's a certain level of empathy that I have for immigrants um and and and folks that are are being um harassed and and and folks that don't feel safe these days um in our country. And so yeah, and it's it's I mean, I was very young, but there's still um memories of uh kind of what that felt like. Right, yeah.

AJ 21:21

Yeah, it's funny you should say that uh too, that sort of disclaimer in a way, Liz, because you know, 300 episodes plus 10 years in the doing this podcast, ostensibly uh stories of regeneration around the place, and of all the sort of meta themes, it is the stories of where we've come from that seem to be the connective. I mean, it's almost sounds obvious as I say it now, but but it really has been strong through through the experience of the podcast that connects us even across divides. Uh if if we can link into these stories and universal themes that come with it. And of course, then what shapes our efforts to be shaped? Shifting things and um in a very human way. So yeah, and I I appreciate you going there. And so so you then, your dad would have also thought uh you his kids weren't going to experience it, so but you did uh a related kind of trauma and escaped, in your case from Orange County. So between there and Bronas, what was your path? How did it lead

Learning Business Through Worker Ownership

AJ 22:21

there?

Les 22:21

Yeah, I I I went to college at UCLA, and so um, which was just uh an hour north of where I grew up. So that was the first step, the first kind of attempt to like um you know create some distance between uh where I grew up and and this this new life. Um and then after that, I I worked, I did um, well, I I did consulting for for a year, and then I I did um and the type of consulting was um actually supporting the United Steel Workers Union. So it was a it was uh a firm specializing in buyouts and setting up uh employee stock ownership plans for plants or facilities that were uh at risk of being shut down. And and it was a a case of in most in most cases, it was you know the workforce taking a significant uh pay cut. And in return for that pay cut, you know, they would be uh essentially purchasing that um in this case it was a forging operation. It was called Pitchbittsburgh Forgings. And so it was really kind of innovative at the time. This was in the uh late um, when was it? It was like eight eighty, like, yeah, late 80s. And so um and and the idea of of you know employee ownership had had just been the the ideas were just sort of being and the legislation around it um what was just being developed. Um, but that this case, this this idea of you know steel workers being able to save their jobs and at the same time um own the company that they're working with, like wow, what what a powerful concept. Um and and so I mean there's a there's a whole I looking back now because there is so much momentum around employee ownership these days and um and employee trusts and and um purpose trusts and all all these sorts of alternative ownership structures. Uh but this was back in the late 80s that that we were doing this work, and so it was it was really it was really fascinating. And and so I I I learned a lot about business planning and yeah, I was spending quite a bit of time right outside of Pittsburgh. I was based in New York City. So so I guess there is like I haven't even thought about it this way, but there is a very sort of um nice, you know, thread that connects all these experiences um way back to just when I just was out of school.

AJ 25:12

Right, yeah. And as much for I think the um I mean it sounds cliched, but thinking out of the box and against the prevailing flow, but in a way that that is we can just do this. Yeah, rather than being victim or subject to these other structures, which clearly plays into what you're doing now. And so so your role, how did you connect to Bronner's directly? And then how did you come to be in this particular role?

Les 25:36

Yeah,

Hemp Entrepreneurship To Dr. Bronner’s

Les 25:37

so um we connected to Bronner's. My wife and I started um, or we were part of a a founding team that that started a hemp food company.

AJ 25:47

Right.

Les 25:47

And so um, yeah, so we launched the first hemp protein powder, and then we launched the first uh hemp milk. And this was in the early 2000s, and and we we we began exhibiting at the big natural food show. It's called Expo, it's in Anaheim, California every year. I think it's the biggest in the world. Uh, but we started exhibiting there, and uh David Bronner, uh well, the Bronner the company started using hemp oil in their soaps in 1999. Yes. And so David and family were big advocates of hemp and and also supporting these early stage and startup companies in in the hemp space. And so anyway, he was a great ally, and that's how we uh met him. And um, yeah, and then uh we we sold the company uh for not a lot of money, and um uh mart margins, we we were the whole supply chain around hemp was just being you know developed, and and so we were buying um hemp uh seeds from farms in Canada where it was already legal, and but the economics had not been sorted out. Right. And so we were never never able to dial in our our our margins in in a in a way that made sense. Um but yeah, the company was sold. But then through this relationship with the Broners, uh my wife, like literally, I think it was like within two or three days of the company being sold, she started working for Broners. And so, um, and her job was hemp advocacy. So going into taking all the these small emerging hemp food brands and creating end caps and working with retailers to really promote, they they came up with a great campaign called Hemp History Week. And so they did events all over the country. Um, and they really, I think, did a great job in in building awareness around hemp as a as a kind of like ingredient or or or superfood. And so um that's that's how she started at Brawners and Um and whatever, like I guess it's like 17 or 18 years later, um, she's now CMO. And they have there wasn't a marketing department back then. Um now it's all sort of really kind of you know professionally run. And and I don't know, they have like 20 people or something and fully built-out marketing team. But um yeah, it's just like quite quite an evolution. And then I and then I I was I was doing my own thing um after the company was sold, and um I I was um working with uh a Swedish partner who was a good friend, and and uh he he launched uh a line of workwear, um sort of like like Dicky's kind of or sort of fashionable Carhartt. And um and I was working with him and um and and then he got very sick um and and passed within three months uh from stomach cancer. And um, so I I wanted like I'm not really a fashion guy and and I just I had no interest in in continuing without him. So I I sold my um ownership stake in the company to uh another Swedish licensee and and was just whatever kind of um yeah, not not in good shape. Um and uh yeah, I I I I kind of went into like kind of a sort of dark place uh for a period of time there. And um, and anyway, uh the I I I uh brawners needed some support on their supply chain work. And so I I I did some consulting um for them around more on the business commercial side, um, not so much the agronomy farming side. But we have projects all over the world where we source our raw materials, um, primarily the global south. And so um, yeah, it was a great opportunity to work with um, they're called the special ops team, but they do they they oversee all of the kind of sourcing relationships. And some cases they're wholly on subsidiaries, in other cases they're joint ventures. But I was there, you know, again, supporting on some finance accounting stuff and and then also like business planning. And so um, yeah, and and then one thing led to another.

AJ 30:44

Amazing. 14 years later, right? Here I am. Amazing that you connected on that hemp story too, which is so pivotal. Well, to David, certainly, but the company's amazing that's where it started.

Les 30:55

Not not only to David, like we we just talked about, well, we talk about it all the time, actually. Um, the the number of people that um are working for the company that that started in hemp. So it was it's it's it's it's critical mass for sure, which is really, really interesting.

AJ 31:11

What do you know? You know, there was a a podcast not too long ago I did as well uh in South Carolina, actually, only because the filmmaker was there, because he'd made a film for Patagonia called uh Hemp is the New Buffalo. I think that was or it was called the Green Buffalo, but it was about the tribe there had got on to hemp because they their their reservation had been also shredded. So they had bugger all land to even join the restoration of buffalo that's happening now. So they needed something else that was food, clothing, even housing material, etc., etc. And uh they grow hemp now, doing that and carted out their old toxic houses. It's a hell of a story. The goodness of it sort of keeps sort of flowering, if you like. That's brilliant that that story goes there. So I'm curious then for you. Do you do you call yourself, are you guys the uh the cosmic marketing officer and the cosmic strategic impact guy in your case?

Les 32:06

Oh no, no, but that's a great idea. Maybe I should change my title. Um David is the only one with the the the uh cosmic in in in his title. Um yeah, he's cosmic engagement officer. And I I don't even know how that term did he I should have asked, I don't even think I originated. Yeah, I I don't know myself, but anyway, he has been for for very for a very long period of time. And then I I have more of a boring corporate title of chief strategy and impact officer. Yeah. And then my wife is chief marketing officer.

AJ 32:43

Yeah. I'm gathering by the type of company it is and the space that you described that you were in as you came to it, that the journey you've had is professional, but also it's been uh personal. It's clearly you don't look like a guy who's in a dark space now. And I know a lot of I mean, there's a lot paid attention to to ancestral lineages and ceremonies, if you will, and those sorts of gatherings. And Dave and I spoke a bit about that. Has it been part of your experience too?

Les 33:16

Yeah,

Medicine Work And Finding A Path

Les 33:17

uh a very important part. And so yeah, I ac actually tracing back to that that um very unpleasant time. And so I um yeah, I mean it it it it had been whatever since college years, since I was um doing any sort of psychedelic drugs or medicines and and um and but but um yeah, I I was it uh I I I I was depressed and um and I did try therapy and it it didn't work and then I had an opportunity uh opportunity to sit um in a ayahuasca ceremony and that that was yeah like 15 years ago. Um whereabouts um in in uh eastern Oregon. Yeah and and that had an effect Oh yeah, yeah, uh life life-changing effect and it put me on this path. And so um and and yeah, on the on the medicine path. And um yeah, I I would say that n not only just personally and emotionally um uh uh just changing my life, but but also I I think it I think in terms of the work I'm doing, I'm I'm doing it based on these medicine experiences. So I feel like it's um yeah, we we can get more into that, but um the the i it it is very very much connected.

AJ 35:03

Yeah, let's just keep following that thread, huh? What about it has led you to this?

Les 35:08

Well, um yeah, this is I wasn't expecting this to get so personal, um, but yeah, let's go with the flow. Um so so yeah, I um uh back in I I was working for Bronner's and and things were were um yeah, I I I I've always loved my work and and I work very hard. And um uh I was working on philanthropy and impact investing and and then also um I'm very involved with the company's e-commerce and international business as well. Um and and then also the company's sort of overall planning. And um and back in 2000, I I I had a stroke and yeah, uh it was it was not it was it was a mild stroke, um, but it sort of shook things up for me, obviously. Um, and definitely viewed it as like a a shot across the bow. And um, because everything could have just went a very different direction. Um but then uh as as part of just recovery, I did do um uh a mushroom ceremony with somebody here in my house. And like the um the the experience uh was very short uh and very intense, which isn't at least for me, not the the typical sort of psilocybin experience. And um but what came out of that the download was just this simple phrase of laying the groundwork for what's next. And so when when you're when you have that, you know, that brush with death, then then everything kind of shifts in terms of how you view your your relationships and and your life and and your work. And and so but the download was so simple but so profound, and and the idea was that everything that I do has to be with asking that question of am I laying the groundwork for what's next? And and not just in terms of like family and kids, but am I doing work um that is you know for in in service of my family and and and and my community and and and the earth. And and so like it it it is um it's so simple, but then it's also just so profound when you just ask yourself, you know, in terms of your day-to-day, like, am I laying the groundwork for what's next? And and it and and then if you if you answer no, then it's it's not the best use of your time. Right. But if you are, then that's exactly it's it's the highest and best use of your time. And so I just um I I I I don't I don't know if if that's gonna sort of resonate uh uh at all. And and I understand if it doesn't, but for for for me, it's the the the fact that I can use that sort of very simple kind of litmus test about um, you know, is is this worthwhile, uh worthwhile use of my time, then you know, it's good enough for me.

AJ 39:00

Right on. No, that's intensely relevant and fascinating to hear. And

A Stroke And A New North Star

AJ 39:06

so the purpose pledge launched this year, but years in the making, I gather. With that sort of um touchstone in mind, you've gone about your work and arrived to this point and then gone to the trouble to try and and make something new in a sort of paradigmatic way, too, that really shifted the tone. So, how was it though trying to bring this together to actually get it going like it now is?

Les 39:31

Yeah, I mean it it it it was. Um it's it's been over three years that we've been working on it, and um I I I don't think I need to get into sort of the whole B Corp drama and and Bronner's I mean the bottom line is that Dr. Bronner's elected to not re-certify as a B Corp, and and and there was there was a lot of commentary and and chatter about that. But we had been working on the purpose pledge um almost two years before that elect that decision was made. And so, and and it's fair to say that we were not happy with the direction things were going uh for for a variety of reasons. Um and and so the the the idea of what what's next, that's something that you know was was being incubated within Broners. And so so it's fair to say that that was the sort of impetus for for thinking about doing something different. But then where we landed with the purpose pledge is so different in in every in every way, it's so different from pretty much every other certification or standard out there. And and that's the first question every media outlet asks is like they they try to do that comparison, that side-by-side comparison, and we're like, no, it's it's it's not relevant. This is not a replacement for B Corp. Um, there everything about sort of the operating model is is just so different. But anyway, yeah, so we did uh we ran a nine-month pilot last year with a dozen companies, and we really dialed in the commitment language.

Building The Purpose Pledge Framework

Les 41:17

So for those uh listeners that aren't familiar, you you you can go to purposepledge.org. That's the website. But essentially the whole model of the purpose pledge is is anchored with a framework, which is our operational definition of purpose, because there is no consensus definition. So it's it's a term used very loosely and people understand it conceptually, but they don't understand what it means in practice. And and you know, we have similar issues with terms like regenerative, right? A lot of people use that term, but what what does it mean in practice? And so so the idea is that we create this operational definition of purpose with these 10 very clear, uh rigorous, uh measurable criteria. And then, and that's how we define what it means to be. It's not everybody's definition, but we felt like somebody has to say, just you know, sort of draw that line in the sand and say, this is what it means to be authentically purpose-led. And so that that was one part, sort of step one was defining that standard. And then second step was how we operationalize. And, you know, as as you know, there's many companies that that want to do the right thing, um, but it's difficult to. It's difficult to just based on uh the the larger shareholder primacy environment that we we we operate in, that business operates in. And so um, and we don't have the systems and the institutions um and the the the infrastructure and the networks that that would make that easy. And so that's what we're trying to do. That's what we're trying to build is that ecosystem of support. So, you know, the tools, the, the, the shared learnings amongst these companies, uh we we just simply say it's it's removing obstacles. That's what we're doing with the purpose clutch. Um, and and and and really just figuring out what are these roadmaps for companies that are practical and and and scalable and cost effective. And so, and we have what are called commitment catalysts. These are the nonprofit partners that help support the companies that to achieve, you know, whether it's zero waste or or or um reducing scope three emissions, or uh paying all of your employees a family living wage or community engagement and community giving, all those things, like we we offer guidance and support to those. Companies that that want to do the right thing and but just you know need just guidance and experience. And so so it's these commitment catalysts that are supporting, but it's also the whole ecosystem because none of the 10 uh uh commitments are being met by there, there's no company meeting all 10 of the commitments. And in some cases, you know, we're leaders, in other cases, we're learners, but it's all based on uh a company's own entry point into all of this and and what their experience is and what they prioritized. And so we're all helping and supporting each other. Yerba Madre is is, I don't know if you know that company. Yeah, they were originally Gwai Key, uh, but they were a huge inspiration for brawners um in terms of looking at the supply chain issue because they were on the ground and they were working with farmers directly. And we, you know, back in the day were just we were buying organic, but it was just based on uh price and spec. And so um we just realized there's so much that that we are not understanding about what's happening on the ground. And so that's kind of, you know, we went to fair trade from there, and then now we're promoting regenerative organic agri agriculture, which is covering not only soil health and land management, it's covering fair labor and how we treat uh farmers and and farmer livelihoods, and then also animal welfare where appropriate, you know, with with livestock operations. And so, yeah, it's um it's it's something where the we're not uh purpose budge is not a certification itself, uh, but uh five of the ten commitments require rigorous, credible third-party certification because it's it's absolutely necessary. That's what's going to determine whether companies are doing what they say they're doing. Yes.

AJ 46:04

And other key characteristics are that you're accountable for it uh in time-bound contexts as well. So there's a real commitment to get at it too. And in a way that really stood out to me, it sounds like in a way that's very much peer-based, and it it sort of echoed other programs I know of uh in regenerative agriculture that I think of RCS Australia, for example, here, uh the one that the mob that really pioneered the holistic grazing or that sort of framework over 35, 40 years in Australia, that they their version of it is that people who go through as graduates can keep going. And they've now they've got a layer, if you will, sort of not dissimilar to this, where you've got people in their operations who come together and hold each other to account. They sort of vow to open the books, as it were, and share it all and then be subject to the feedback, uh, and then be accountable to what they resolve to do next time they meet, that sort of thing. And it's been extremely powerful in driving that movement. And I see similar overtones here.

Les 47:10

Just let me add to what you're saying, which is that the accountability piece is also really, really critical. And so obviously you may have come across this cat cap Gemini is this big international consulting firm, and you know, the the their surveys show that six out of ten consumers uh believe companies are are greenwashing or purpose washing. And so there's a a huge, huge issue around uh consumer distrust. And so the the other part of this is you know ensuring that that purpose, the way we're defining it, has and and and and and companies are are are being accountable by having to publicly share their plans. And not only their plans, but they have to show they're making progress on each of the 10 commitments. And so there's that public accountability that that is really critical because you know, in so many cases you hear companies making, whether it's around climate or any other issue, making claims, uh, but you don't there's no way that that you can track and w whether they're demonstrating kind of true follow-through over time. And so that's that's why the accountability piece in the purpose pledge is also really critical. And you can go to, if you go to the purpose pledge website and you click on, for example, Bronner's, then you can see a progress, we call them progress trackers, but they're essentially progress bars for each of the 10 commitments, and it shows you know today, and then it shows what year the the company is um targeting as as the achievement year. And then and then if you click on like whatever supply web or zero waste or living wage, then you see the company's three-year plan. And it's all based on OKRs, um, which are objectives and key results. It's a goal setting framework, but it asks each company with each commitment area to specify year one, what are you gonna do? Year two, what are you gonna do? Year three, what are you gonna do? So it it and it's public. So anybody can, you know, whether it's an employee, a customer, anybody can go to the website and see how a company is doing, and then you know, just track and and and make sure that I mean it it's it's it's accountability. It's it's it's it's accountability to the general public, but it's also accountability to, you know, your your key stakeholders as well.

AJ 49:49

Yeah, yeah, right. So 10 time-bound commitments, 16 companies in it at the moment. Uh 20. 20 now.

Public Progress Trackers And Accountability

Les 49:57

Yeah, we we launched with 16. Actually, yesterday we announced an additional four. Uh huh. So we have we're we're purposely capping it at 25 just to make sure that we can manage all this and and work out, you know, a model that is gonna make sense and and the companies truly, you know, feel like it's it's useful and and valuable to be a part of the community. So there, yeah, we have five more slots and and we're pretty sure we'll be able to fill them by year and that's the goal is to have them filled by year end.

AJ 50:31

Yeah. Is it food and egg based or more broad?

Les 50:35

Well, it it's it's more broad in terms of sectors. It covers food and ag and it covers well, food and beverage, and it covers personal care. So companies like Bronner's, and then we have one apparel company, and then we're also going to have one supplement company. But the common denominator is an agricultural supply chain. And so either land or ocean-based supply chain.

AJ 51:01

Right. And the funding for it, is this just like every stakeholder is is just putting themselves into it? So it's sort of embedded. A slash, andor uh is there a a capital fund that you raise for this as well?

Funding The Pledge And Purpose Capital

Les 51:16

Well, I mean, the the issue of fundraising for this, for this is an independent 501c3, so it's an independent nonprofit um that that has been uh funded primarily by Dr. Bronner's to date. Uh, but we do we do intend to diversify that. We need to diversify that funding to kind of really build this out and to scale it. Um, but then separate to that, there is and in this C3, this nonprofit is really focused on the pledge itself and and supporting companies in in commitment achievement. But then there's a separate sort of sister project that's called Purpose Capital. And and the idea there is to uh it's not a fun, but essentially we're raising a pool of capital to support purpose pledge companies. And so it in in in a very innovative, non-extractive um sort of structure that that uh we're pretty excited about. And it's it's pretty innovative, but it's it's a blending of sort of philanthropic dollars and impact investment dollars. Uh, but but um the idea is to yeah, support these companies at at different stages of their life cycle.

AJ 52:33

And is that happening now or that's to come? Well, the fundraising is happening now.

Les 52:37

So we we just started really fundraising in late May. Um and and uh yeah, we're we're kind of right in the thick of it.

AJ 52:48

I I recall going back years too, uh, I think it was Peter Buffett was amongst it, talking about systems change philanthropy, and it was a big buzz at the time. Who who was saying that? I think it was Peter Buffett, Warren's son. Okay. And I mean, big buzz, but and you sort of struggle to see much wholesale impact. I I know that there's a you know, some of your press has been saying how this transcends again, another thing it transcends is the giving pledge, um, and really putting worth a word, huh, on that. But then just related to the way those broader structures you referred to earlier work, the the growth economy as a whole. What excites you the most about the potential in this to take us somewhere else?

Les 53:34

There was an Inc. article about us, and and uh I forget the exact title actually. It was something about um I've got it here.

AJ 53:42

Dr. Bronas has a plan to change capitalism as we know it.

Les 53:47

Yeah, yeah. So so very grandiose. Um but I will say that um that is the intention. And so and and you know that the the the giving pledge thing, there is sort of there that created some controversy as well. And um I I I would recommend that you know if somebody's interested in learning more, they can go to um my LinkedIn page and actually read the full article because um there is I think something that that um when we talk about wealth creation and um wealth distribution in the form of philanthropy, they have been separated, but they cannot be separated. And so we have to think about r rather than this idea of accumulating a tremendous amount of wealth and and then selectively giving back, we have to look upstream and upstream. That's where the wealth is being created via the the enterprise, via the company. And so how are you treating those important relationships, your employees and and the land and and the communities? And and we talk a lot about the purpose pledge as um internalizing externalities. And and if you're not treating and honoring those relationships in the right way, and you're accumulating wealth at the expense of those relationships, then that that's problematic. And so there is a kind of systems level component to how we're thinking about purpose capital and what are the right kind of intervention nodes, you know, one is at the farm level and the other is at the company level. And so the financing is really there to support companies in that are on this track, that are on the purpose pledge track and that are investing appropriately in supporting those different and and we we we're we're trying to move away from using the term stakeholder for a variety of reasons.

AJ 56:06

Right.

Les 56:07

But but it's really about just honoring those relationships.

AJ 56:11

Yeah. You know, there's a mob here out of Australia that uh that took to using the word careholder. And when you're having these sorts of structures, it stacks up. It's not a bad term to use.

Les 56:21

Yeah, there there's um there's I've I've heard careholder, I've heard rights holder, and I I and and there's just relations, you know, like Right, kinship. I I and kinship. And and one of my spiritual leaders, his name is Sandor Ironrope, and he's a Lakota elder, and um we we work together closely on peyote conservation. And so he introduced me to this term, uh, all my relations. And and that kind of says it all, you know, all my relations. And so when you have that worldview and and cosmology, and that everything is about relationships and right relationship, then stakeholder just feels completely inadequate. It sure does.

AJ 57:06

Well said.

Can This Shift Economic Power

AJ 57:08

Before we wrap up, Les, there's something else I'm really motivated to ask you. Uh, and that is it's almost full circle to where we started with power, I suppose. So if we end up with 25 companies in the purpose pledge, and let's say we've got the big power companies as we know them today, you know, with all the more with AI coming on the way it is doing what they're doing. What is the prospect of I guess what you're optimistic about? A shift in power that has this becoming the norm. I guess it's another way to look at it might be how does this not just end up being the next marginal effort? Yeah. What might distinguish this and related efforts to actually shift the dial where power resides?

Les 57:58

Yeah, I I I think, I mean, maybe it does connect back to what we talked about and and and sort of the the societal level challenges that we're facing and and what make I think the model, like I said, is very different. So we're excited about the the fact that this is a more, I think, a a pretty innovative way of thinking about um change at the at the economic level. But you know, we we do talk about this as the decisive decade, and I feel like all the we don't if if you go to our website, we don't have a lot on the the why question, you know, like like we we don't need to show more um sort of peer-reviewed science about climate change. That's not our job. Our job is not to uh talk more about um the problem because I think there is a great awareness, particularly amongst you know, the food companies. So they know that food and ag is at the intersection of these um these overlapping crises. And so we we don't have to address the why, but we do have to know that we are it's our industry and we are accountable. And at the same time, what an amazing opportunity to to make change. And so I think most of the companies that are part of the pledge are looking at this from the company level perspective, the microeconomic perspective of how this impacts them and and their success and and and how it impacts their stakeholders. But I think all the companies also just see the the larger vision and the the need to think macro as as well. And and you know, this idea of forging uh a new sort of way of thinking about you know how we value an enterprise and and thinking about even the purpose of an enterprise, like people are into that. Um and and I think it is because of you know having to stay indoors for three days because um the air quality is so bad. It's it's hitting us very very much at home.

AJ 1:00:19

Well said. Yep. Is this an invitation to others to Liz?

How Companies Can Join The Pledge

Les 1:00:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Any any any company is that that's interested, reach out. The first thing to do is download the PDF that has all the details of the commitment language. There's a lot of fine print there. So um, and and we we we just want to not waste anybody's time. We want to make sure that there's a good fit between the company and and there is that sort of line of sight to being being able to achieve the 10 commitments. And so um, yeah, uh and and we're happy to field, you know, um calls and and questions and all that. If I'm assuming your audience is primarily uh Australians, is that correct?

AJ 1:01:04

Three quarters, yeah, and a quarter is international.

Les 1:01:07

Yeah. So so I I think you know the whole idea is is around community. And so, you know, we we do want to we we we had some inquiries from Europe and and I I think that you do need critical mass. So like the whole point is the community and the community engagement and collaboration. And so um that can happen sort of in the same region, the same time zone. Um if if there are, and I'm sure there are Australian companies that are um that would be into this, and and but but then you know, we're not gonna do a one-off thing. It it it it has to make sense where there's whatever, I'm just throwing out a number, five or so, five plus companies that um are are willing to be, you know, partners and and work together on it.

AJ 1:01:57

Right. Terrific. Yeah. All right, Liz.

Jazz Radio For Plant Lovers

AJ 1:02:00

Just to bring us home, I'm always really curious. Is there a piece of music that's sort of been with you through your life or maybe through some of those pivotal times, or or perhaps just now?

Les 1:02:10

Yeah, um, yeah, I'm very this is a shout out to um it's not a a single piece of music. It's it's actually a radio station called KMHD. And folks can find it at kmhd.org and stream. Uh, but it's I I just discovered it maybe a couple years ago, but it is publicly funded uh local radio station here in Portland. Um it's jazz, but every form of jazz you can imagine, a very broad, broad definition of jazz. And um, and there's a particular DJ, his name is Anthony Valadez, and he has a show called Sounds for Plant Lovers. And and and and and his just every show he does, he it's an hour show. Um it's live from 11 to midnight, but um they they archive the shows, and so you can you could stream it whenever. Uh but it it's just like I mean, it's it's um it's so good. And so it's it's it's on for me like kind of most of the day these days. So um yeah. Magnificent. So but a plug for them, they should, they should uh, yeah, I I I hope they can grow their Australian listenership.

AJ 1:03:33

Right, yeah. And I love that we can stream it too. It's terrific. Yeah. Thanks, Liz. Uh, you know, I am very glad that you uh you're going grandiose, that you're going big. Yeah. Right on. Yeah, it's what's needed and power to you. And uh, and I'm so looking forward to what happens and you know the learnings that will abound, whatever happens, but the potential for it, I totally see it, totally believe it right with you, and and thanks a lot for spending the time with us today.

Les 1:03:58

Well, I enjoy the convo, AJ. Thank you so much, and and please stay in touch, and we're we're happy to shoot you you know updates on on how things are going.

AJ 1:04:08

That'd be awesome, and yeah, let's follow up at some stage too. Awesome. All right. Thank you, man. Thanks so much.

Les 1:04:13

Take care. You too. All the best.

AJ 1:04:15

Bye. Bye.

Wrap Up And Listener Support

AJ 1:04:16

That was Les Zabo, Chief Strategy and Impact Officer at Dr. Bronner's and the ED of the New Purpose Pledge. With thanks to Alexandra Groome Klement, who Judy Schwartz introduced us to while in the US, now part of the Purpose Pledge team, for helping to make this happen. And if you're interested in the conversation Dave Bronner and I shared, head to episode 207. And if you happen to be interested in a short story about an uncanny moment that took place after this conversation, have a read of my latest Substack piece. All links in the show notes. If you'd like to let me know what you think about today's episode, send a voicemail or text via the show notes too. And if you're enjoying the podcast, like I'm enjoying Les's music tip right now, I hope you'll consider becoming a paid subscriber on Patreon or Substack. This episode was only possible with your support, so thanks very much for four years of it now. Paul Vergnot, over in Europe, going by your paying currency, and Nikki Thompson, over in Queensland, I think. And thank you all for sharing, rating, and reviewing the podcast, because it all helps. The music you're hearing is Regeneration by Amelia Bardin, and at the top was Honey Mustard by Randy Sharp, sourced from Artlist. My name's Anthony James. Thanks for listening.