Stories of the regeneration of the living world, not often on the news, often almost beyond belief. With award-winning host Anthony James. It’s ad-free, freely available and entirely listener-supported. You'll hear from high profile and grass-roots leaders from around Australia and the world, on how they're changing the stories we live by, and the systems we create in their mold. Along with often very personal tales of how they themselves are changing, in the places they call home, and with some of the music they love.
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Soon after last week's special episode dropped, the messages started coming in. One from a paid subscriber (thanks Dominique Hes) commented on how the first 25 minutes or so alone was so impactful, that I needed to write up a summary on Substack. That, I did. And it made me think some of you might appreciate just that part of our conversation carved out on the pod, to share more easily, hear again, or cut to the chase of it if you don’t have an hour to listen to the full episode.
Today, an excerpt from about 4 minutes in. It leads off with the latest on the Executive Order for regenerative agriculture that Lundgren was pivotal to. We go on to talk about the enormous body of evidence that secured it. Before rounding out here with the beginning of Jon’s incredible, tumultuous personal journey, from the USDA times to the 10th birthday celebrated just last month of his Blue Dasher Farm and independent research foundation, Ecdysis, host of the extraordinary 1,000 Farms Initiative.
“Mr. President, the most striking data we have generated from our work is that row croppers in the U.S. have twice the asthma rates, 3 times the clinical depression, 3 times the cancer rate, and a 2,600 fold increase in Parkinson’s rates compared to the rest of society. We are killing our farmers.”
“We've got hard data. This became the largest database of regenerative food systems in existence. It's the third largest bio-inventory ever conducted by humans. And the data is like, what these farmers, I mean what they've developed is real. We're not making this up. It's true, it's scalable, it's transferable. This is the answer that we've been looking for.”
To hear the conversation in full, including more of Jon’s story and how this research and community action is developing in Australia right now, head to episode 319 on the website, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
If you’d like to go straight to a particular part of our conversation, or essentially view a table of contents, you can navigate via the chapter markers and transcript.
Recorded 27 August 2026.
Title slide: In the Oval Office. That’s Jonathan Lundgren on the right, Will Harris to his right (sourced from Lundgren’s post on his website)
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And you still chart a unique life in a sense that you still bridge back almost to your old days, dare I say, with um your connections to Washington. Yeah. Obviously, we we connected over in our famous meeting in the Oval Office, then it ended in the executive order for Region Ag. I wonder now what are we? Two months on.
Jon
Yeah.
AJ
What have you observed? How are you feeling?
Jon
It's been one one month. Um I don't know. Uh yeah, yeah. Uh we gotta hold their feet to the fire at this point. And um if this is what they want, and that's what he said, then then let's then prove it, right? Um so we're climate week's coming on strong. Um this week in New York, or rather next month in New York City. Our research is rolling out now. Uh one of our flagship papers is about to hit. There's no more denying whether regen works. It it's uh the data's real strong. And we're gonna roll that out with a press campaign to hopefully you know knock each one of these papers into the um into the vernacular. Let's put it that way. Uh right now. We really need that. Um so uh every time that you know some national crisis or problem comes up, we want to show Regens the answer. Uh it it it addresses that, you know, because it it in so many ways it's one of these root solutions to many of the uh issues that we're really facing right now.
AJ
Right. We were just talking off air about where where this podcast started. And it started at the same time as Charlie Massey's book came out here, Call of the Reed War bler.
Jon
I've got that. I just looked at that on my bookshelf. I haven't gotten a chance to read it yet, but I've heard it's amazing.
AJ
Hey, it's funny you should say that because it's epic, right? Yeah, it's it's big. Yeah, yeah. I think there are a lot of people that have it on their bookshelf and haven't read it yet. You're probably not alone.
Jon
I've heard it's great, though. Oh I can't wait.
AJ
It's amazing, yeah. And it was game-changing, certainly, here and ended up being published out of Chelsea Green over in the States and reached globally as well. But I remember him saying to me back then, he said it's a matter of having the solutions on the shelf for when people are ready. We can't force change. But yeah, that's what he said then.
Jon
That's that's exactly the our mantra as well. You know, I mean, we we we we have to be there when people are are ready to to change. Evolution is a really crappy thing to watch. Um and and yeah, it's probably necessary, but that doesn't mean that it's gonna be pretty. And you gotta be there for the people that want to change, but for those that don't, ouch, that's gonna be a hard pill, right? Yeah, right. Yep. What do you do?
AJ
Well, speaking of what you have come to through the research, what is just straight up and down for you now, that you did land in the Oval Office that day in a powerful way. I guess that's probably almost rope for you now, the the the quick grab summary. But for those that haven't come across it, do you want to trot it out for us now, essentially? What is the grunt of how it is so cut and dry from your your findings?
regenerative ag is more than just about carbon. It does a lot of things and it's outcome-based, right? Uh, it addresses water issues, uh, both flooding and desertification. It increases nutrition of food, it improves the wellness, the physical mental wellness of farmers. It reduces agri pollution, which is rampant right now and causing all kinds of issues.
AJ
For you personally, too. It's a very personal experience on your farm.
Jon
Absolutely, it is. Absolutely it is. Every person, there's an elephant in the room, right? When I go into every single talk, there's this elephant in the room, and that is they all all these farmers, well, with especially within cropping systems, they know that there's people in their families that are experiencing weird things. And um, and they're choosing not to connect the dots there. The the biggest thing is um, you know, profit, but uh the biggest thing is is is biodiversity. And and that's really been a key finding is that all of those other regenerative outcomes, be they ecological or economic or social or or uh medical, um all of them are tied to one thing, and that's the amount of life on farms. And and that's really great because that's something that farmers get to control, right? They manage the amount of life on their farm through their management decisions. And I just encourage them to do just that, to to think, okay, is this decision that I'm gonna do right now, is this increasing the amount of life on my farm or reducing it? And that doesn't mean, oh, it how many soybeans can I get per acre? You know, that that that's more how many different species I can get, you know, per acre.
AJ
And yet you're finding that yield holds up as well.
Jon
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't you don't lose money going regen. We can feed the world going regen. Uh the agronomy, right? Oh, yeah, no, I can't do regenerative. It's uh too wet, too dry, too hot, too cold. That may work on your farm. It'll never work on mine. Uh every single community that we have visited, we have found farmers that are pushing it, that are developing successful regenerative systems. And so, yeah, this is these are not the hurdles that farmers are are calling them. They're performance answers. Um, I just learned that word the other day. I was talking with a sociologist, and they're like, no, no, no, there's there's there's the answers that we're we think we're supposed to say, yeah, and then there's the answers that are really driving us. And uh until you get to those answers, the ones that are really driving us, we're not moving the needle. And so this is not an agronomic problem. This is not an economic problem, this is not a yield performance problem. Yeah, they have to be there, but that's not what's motivating decisions, certainly not in the US. Um management behaviors, especially change. The levers of change that I've found most effective are calling out those the the health of your family, and you're responsible for that. You gotta own that one. That one moves the needle. Um, when I tell the farmers, listen, you're borrowing eight hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year to make fifty thousand dollars, and you stopped asking where that other 800 grand went. There's a whole lot of people that are making money in farming. It ain't the farmers, it's these large multinational corporations that are milking you dry, and you line up to do it again year after year after year. Yeah. That one lands. Oh, it's landing right now, even though I've heard it before. It's just sobering. But that's interesting that you are finding it lands with the people in the gun. They know it. They're not talking about it, but they know it. It's interesting what holds us, isn't it? What works with you?
I mean, when you're talking, I mean, what what moves the needle when you're talking to a farmer group and you want to inspire them, right? If you you want to motivate them to change, what are the things that seems to that you notice works? Oh, I would say ditto, straight up. And I'd add, I'd add, and I wonder if you find this too, that in order to get past what was it, the performing answer, which is commonly understood to be true in all sorts of in classrooms, like in all sorts of so this is a human That's what we're taught. Yeah, exactly. So to get past that, you have to feel like you're safe enough to do it, don't you? So whether it is kids in the classroom or whether it's you know farmers or adults in the classroom or farmers or or any cohort, so there's a context of not feeling attached. Once you're on the defensive, it's it's sort of game over, isn't it? Nothing moves. It's it's a it's a battle. So that's the other thing I've observed. It if you can transcend the battle or or absorb the bloodlet, the vent, um, that there's a there's a prospect of getting past that performing as well. Yeah. Have you seen that?
Jon
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think there's so there's there's you get up on stage and sometimes you need a bitch slap, right? I mean, somebody that just gets up there and whacks you, right? Because you're so I mean, at least in in the US, people are, I mean, farmers are like ingrained. Okay, I'm gonna go to this meeting, they're gonna tell me how to get three more bushels an acre, and everybody's gonna pat me on the back because I'm feeding the world, right? And then suddenly somebody gets up there and like changes the narrative, and they're like, whoa, what what what's going on? Doing that in such a way where they identify with you still, and they understand, okay, this this guy's r really telling me things I don't want to hear, but I kind of get the feeling like he's on my side still. Yeah. That's the trick. So it's worth also bringing to the table, I reckon, some of the stuff that you've you've found through your years of research going around farms all over the States.
And we'll come to a bit more detail of that later, and indeed now that you're coming to Australia. But aside from all those yield wins, profit wins because you've got less costs and all that stuff, there is you with in terms of these neurological diseases we're seeing in epidemic proportions, and now there's more and more understanding and airtime coming to the link between this chemical farming and these outcomes. But you have found. If I go through this, row croppers in the US have twice the asthma rates, three times the clinical depression, three times the cancer rate, and a 2,600-fold increase in Parkinson's compared to the rest of society.
Jon
Yeah.
AJ
How does that land when you trot that out?
Jon
Yeah, that's it right there, right? I mean, we're killing our farmers. For corporate greed, we're killing our farmers. Um I mean, you guys are experiencing that oh over in Australia, aren't you? What what are the do you have any idea what the disease rates or some of these chronic illnesses and mental health issues are in Australia?
AJ
It's a really good question. I don't think yet, I know there are people on it, and and we have a section in in our Riverina, we call it, uh, that is now becoming called MND or ALS in the States, MND alley, motor neuron disease, because of the seven, I think it's seven times the national rate uh occurring there. Yeah. And so there's there's sort of general understandings now that and and pressing the buttons for people to go, okay, we need to research this more, that's there. But it's more, I would say to date in Australia, the understanding we have is how loose the regulation is. So even just leading up to our conversation, there's been a lot of talk about that only 15% of identified high-use pesticide products used here, only 15% have international approval. 60% banned in the EU, and only 24% banned in at least one other country, and only 15 with international approval. And that Paraquat's one of those. Oh dear. And there's been a review going on of Paraquat for 27 years. It just goes on. So we're an outlier in that regard, and that's becoming understood.
Jon
Okay, so our farmers I'm gonna ask a controversial question. How long do we allow do we turn the blind eye to the fact that farmers are making these decisions, that there are alternatives, and that the farmers are choosing to apply these things? Um is ignorance in this modern age an acceptable answer anymore? Is that acceptable?
AJ
It's a good question. I certainly feel like there's an extent to which you have to take responsibility. You can't just plead all the factors. Oh, excuse me. That's a that's a ranch calling me. I kept it on in case we needed it. A ranch in the Kimberley calling me.
Jon
Saved by the bell, boy, you you yeah, you dodge that one nicely done. I see.
AJ
Um But yeah, like it's funny, you know, in many respects, it's nothing we don't teach our 12-year-old boy. Yeah, that ignorance isn't good enough, you know.
Jon
Hey, don't play over by that stuff. That stuff, yeah, that's not the kind of stuff you want to be, yeah. Get over away from those jugs. Yeah. Right? But they still spray it on every damn acre.
AJ
Yeah. And for that matter, not just farmers, you know, but but the rest of us.
Jon
Oh, yeah, with the stuff. Yeah, yeah. No, you go down to the local hardware store or or whatever department store and you pull it off of the shelf. Somebody must have said this was safe. Come on. Uh
nobody's watching. I could tell you I worked in risk assessment for 25 years. I advise the US EPA and the universe or the European Food Safety Authority, right, on pesticide risks, genetically modified crop risks. Nobody's watching. How could they? I mean, there's 20 in the US alone, there's 20,000 formulations of several hundred active ingredients. The active ingredients are the only ones that have to pass through any regulation. The formulations change the risk scenario entirely such that every formulation presents a unique risk profile. 20,000 of them. Who's gonna pay? Who's gonna do that work? The only one who's doing it right now are the registrants, the pesticide companies themselves. They provide the data on the safety of their product for the regulators. Nobody's watching.
AJ
Yeah, that's it, hey. It's on us. And you mentioned your previous role there and how you did play that role in the past. It made me think when seeing you in the Oval Office this time, the last time you had, well, the last time, another time you had a presidential encounter with Barack Obama was receiving an award, but that was a moment of transformation for you. That's when you decided you needed to change.
Um, it was tumultuous, it was it was schizophrenic. Um on one hand, I was on top of the scientific world. I was named one of the top young scientists in the country um by the president of all people. And but yet there was still so many issues that were being that that weren't being solved. And so I was like in this weird spot where it's like, uh, all right, I'm doing this, uh, everything, I'm getting so much positive feedback at this, right? I'm doing my job great. But yet things weren't getting better. Well, there's a parallel, isn't there? It's a fascinating parallel to think of all the people who could say that. Well, uh, I mean, it it besides I wasn't doing my science to make things better. I was saying I was, and I could chart, I could, I was really good at at telling you how all of the different ways my science was helping. But the reality was quite different. And and so, you know, we started doing more high-risk research, I suppose. I mean, we started investigating and and talking about it, really, and communicating. The beekeepers came to me. They said, Jon, these pesticides, they're killing off our bees. I'm like, no, no, no, no. The research is uh is not black and white on that, it's pretty gray. And they said, come on out, take a look at our bees when the when that when that planter is going and they're planting the corn with the Neonix on it. And and I did. And I couldn't undo what I saw, and it became very clear that I had to be asking my scientific questions within the right context, otherwise, we were going to get the wrong answers. And uh the same ended up happening with the well, now they're called regenerative farmers, right? At the time they weren't. And uh they were saying that they could, they were achieving things. I was still pretty focused on entomology at the time. Um, and so they were telling me they didn't need pesticides anymore. I'm like, that can't be, right? I mean, the best you can hope for is to reduce the amount of pesticides that you need. That's that's that's the best we could really look for here. And and they were showing that they didn't need the junk anymore. And I'm like, and I couldn't unsee it. That was that was real. They were developing very successful systems where this wasn't needed anymore. And uh yeah, and so I started talking about that, and suddenly, you know, that became a threat. That became uh overturning the Apple cart. And uh so everything changed after that.
AJ
You had to go out and see it though, huh? That's the critical piece.
Jon
I think isn't that true? Isn't that so often? I think for us to change, we it needs to be experiential. And I'm a cynical person, okay? Uh I'm a scientist, I'm trained. I'm trained to be cynical. They beat that out of you. If they yeah, any any any sort of yeah, uh hmm, belief system is the hope. That's that's probably false, but that's the hope. The hope is that you self-assess. That you're trained to self-assess. And uh, yeah, there you are. Yeah.
AJ
So that tumultuousness must have only got more so with you churning on the inside and trying to blaze this trail and then finding the pushback.
And then going all the way through into a court system, even a court process. How do you reflect on that all these years later and ultimately your decision to start a farm and everything else that's come with it?
Jon
It was it was incredibly risky. I was I was so confident. I had all the answers. Um I thought that any any fights I would pick, that I could handle it. Right? And I didn't understand that it wasn't just me. Um that that I was dragging everybody that I cared through that as well. Um yeah, the USDA began suppressing science. Um the science that we were doing that I thought, yeah, well, it was good science, so there was no reason to, for political reasons, they were suppressing it. Um attacking me, attack uh yeah, uh harassing my employees. Um yeah, it got pretty bad. And um ultimately uh filed a whistleblower uh complaint about it to questioning the scientific integrity of the USDA, and uh and I quit. Um
AJ
but not before it it had escalated to even more stress, I imagine, going through a court process.
Jon
Yeah. Uh yeah, well, uh, you know, it wasn't like a formal hearing. or anything like that. It was and and what we were asking is for the USDA to slap itself on the wrist. And and there's there wasn't really any compelling reason that that they would. You believed in it enough to keep trying to get it to happen. Mm-hmm. It was it was the right thing to do. The USDA uh did a survey of the of the scientific staff um and they were really proud of the results. Only 10% of the scientists um had experienced research suppression for political reasons. So they were like yeah only 10% like there's 2,000 scientists. That means 200 other scientists had experienced the same sort of shit that I did and they didn't say anything about it. And um and I believed in we have to have the ability the scientific community has to have the ability to talk about what it is that we're finding um to help use that data to hopefully to steer things in the in a in a correct direction especially when especially when it's different than what we've been experiencing because the status quo we don't change otherwise and there's a long history I mean of of uh scientists that are martyrs because they uh suggested uh you know a major change to uh the system so to speak yeah um but and and there was a tremendous desire amongst the anti-pesticide group the anti-gmo group the uh you know anti-establishment group that man Lundgren look at what he did you know he stood up and he yeah he he gave it back to him oh my gosh you know we need to recruit him and do and to do more of this stuff right and and and it would have been very easy for that to become my identity and I don't think I'd be here right now if that had happened. Yeah you might say that yeah I I um so yeah I I it was the right thing to do but I that's all a matter of perspective I don't think that my family would say that was the right thing to do for them is that what hit you in the moment you decided to jump off that trek my wife left um oh man uh soon afterwards um the I lost my job I I lost my yeah my illustrious career I pushed all of my money onto this farm and um the stress of it was I mean yeah it was a roller coaster and how on earth could I expect other people that I care about to do that uh everybody that was on my staff I dragged them through the through the crap um yeah all of them ended up with jobs I was able to finish the graduate students that I had started and yeah but it was wasn't easy and so here I am and I'd law uh rolled the dice and I lost everything and uh I'm sitting on this farm this intoxicated farm that I didn't understand and and I could say I did the right thing but I still lost an awful lot would I do it again yeah I probably would yeah it's tough isn't it like I think so many of us can would say that about the toughest things in our lives like if you get through if you do get through that it can because you look back in the paradox of it is it it's pivotal to where you are now and and making such a brilliant contribution to I I wouldn't be that's yeah
quit my job I I decided that okay what would science look like if we really wanted to use science to usher in the evolution of a new food system. Because I know what science looks like if we want to make the current broken system work a little better. Yeah but that wasn't getting us where we had to go. We had to rethink things and I said well step one is I think the scientists have to be farmers. I think we actually have to walk the talk and so yeah I bought Blue Dasher um and uh I never had to learn so much so fast it it became really clear that scientists were never meant to be the experts on farming that that we were always meant to be servants and and that farmers were the experts on farming and scientists can bring things to the table but gone were the days of me getting up on a stage and saying what a farmer ought to do with their farm. I can tell you what other farmers have done with their farms it seems to work but yeah I don't know um it changed the questions we ask it changed how we ask them and and and through that I understand now what the potential of our food system is and I wouldn't have understood that if I hadn't gone through what I did.
AJ
Yeah isn't it interesting to think I made it for for the record grateful that you did in that sense so you picked up the farm that was 10 years ago you just had the 10th birthday huh?
Jon
Yeah you too right
AJ
right on sure I didn't think about that
Jon
yeah you yeah we're yeah we both uh yeah there must have been something in the water in the 2016 huh?
AJ
Something in the good water so you you crowdfunded too this was part of it. It was a community that rallied for
